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FrflyPimpDaddy

Denying a pin check

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Here's the situation. You're on a two plane ( Otter, Caravan) formation load and it's that time where everyone is getting up and putting on their game face. The nice skydiver behind you asks the jumper behind him to give him a pin check, and the jumper complies. Now, the jumper behind you politely asks you if you would like a pin check. You say no. Now, before people start going all crazy here, let's make some assumptions.

1. It's a formation load, everyone on the plane has proved at least competent enough to be on that dive, which is a multiple point 35 way. No new jumpers here.

2. Your rig can easily have a pin check, and the jumper behind you that asked you if you wanted one is experienced enough to know this.

3. You are being asked, no one just grabbed your shit and started f'in with it. Please, let's not even go there.

4. It's a full Otter load and you were sitting on the floor with all your friends packed in it tighter than a Chipotle burrito.

This is the exact situation that I dealt with this past weekend. I noticed on the load, possibly only 1/3 of the participants requested or accepted the opportunity for a pin check.

Why would anyone say no to the opportunity? What's the harm? Am I missing something extremely obvious here? I don't get it.

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I decline all the time. I pack for my self so i know that the pin is all the way in and the closing loop is tight. I decline if i am in a turbine and know that I did not bang my rig in any way. However, if i am on the floor, i always get a pin check. Most people with pull out decline pin checks too. Plus you never know when some jackass might mess with your shit and tie a flag to you or pop the pin.

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I prefer to pin check myself.
I can reach both pins, no issues and feel the bridle all the way to the d-bag. This would be my third pin check prior to exit. If I have issues or something doesn't feel right, I'll ask for help.
Thanks for asking though!
:)

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I'm hands off my rig to.
I also pack for myself and i'm anal about everything and the last thing i want is for someone to interfere with my main/reserve tuck flaps and possibly bridle.
If someone say noticed a tuck flap had became dislodged or the pc was half out of its pocket etc then its perfectly acceptable to inform the jumper and assist with remedy if required to do so.
At the end of the day if you're comfortable with your packing and equipment then the choice of a pin check is purely personal preference.
.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

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3. You are being asked, no one just grabbed your shit and started f'in with it. Please, let's not even go there.



Oh, I'm really sorry for possibly hijacking this one, but nothing pisses me off more than that. Had on kid just open my flap without even asking or telling me what he was doing, and then closed it up and gave it a "nice" strong hit/tap right on the flap over the pin as a mean to tell me it's all ok.

Again, I'm sorry to go completely off topic, but I had this urge to vent... Wish every person asked for permission before touching any person's rig.

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Used to jump an SOS system. If you ever do, you quickly learn that there are people who have no idea how to do pin checks on equipment different than their own. I've actually been grabbed by the harness and dragged back inside from floating because the person couldn't see my cutaway handle. A lot of jumpers have no idea how to do a proper pin check or even what they are looking at!

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3. You are being asked, no one just grabbed your shit and started f'in with it. Please, let's not even go there.



Oh, I'm really sorry for possibly hijacking this one, but nothing pisses me off more than that. Had on kid just open my flap without even asking or telling me what he was doing, and then closed it up and gave it a "nice" strong hit/tap right on the flap over the pin as a mean to tell me it's all ok.

Again, I'm sorry to go completely off topic, but I had this urge to vent... Wish every person asked for permission before touching any person's rig.



Yep, nothing better than someone you don't know, opening your main flap only to find out you have a straight pin and no d-bag. (Yes, i'm doing crw, please don't touch my gear again.)

I think the issue really is: ask before you touch anyone's gear, and know what you are looking at when you see it. If you aren't familiar with various types of gear, then checking unfamiliar gear is worse than not checking it.

And as the checkee, I retain the right to refuse a check from someone I do not know.

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I prefer to pin check myself.
I can reach both pins, no issues and feel the bridle all the way to the d-bag. This would be my third pin check prior to exit. If I have issues or something doesn't feel right, I'll ask for help.
Thanks for asking though!
:)



Same for me. I would ask them if they see something wrong or if they saw it get wacked or whatever. If it is just because they want to check it, the answer is no. I almost always pack it myself and don't want anybody undoing what I've done.

Also, I jump a pretty uncommon rig (old Naro from Pisa) and if you mess with the reserve pin cover flap it can allow puckers in the riser covers and allow air to get in and open that flap in freefall.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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the more i read this site the more things here make sense. The attitude in this thread explains alot of other threads on here. First of all, the OP said everyone on that load was experienced, so there would be no issue with someone not knowing what they were looking for.
-second: Most pin checks in the plane before exit only consist of a main pin check. To make sure you can specify that. ThaT way no one is messing with your reserve flaps(even though I dont see the harm in that either) If they dont know how to open and close flaps they wouldnt be on a 35 way!!!
-third: Someone opening your main pin cover and looking at your pin doesnt in any way effect the way you closed it or your pack job. I dont know what kind of pin checks you guys are talking about.....But everywhere i've been its a visual inspection. Pin seated? and pilot chute cocked? excess bridle?
-fourth: Saying you dont need a pin check because you packed it is the dumbest shit ive ever heard. Are you or are you not crammed in a jump plane, T-bag to D-bag??? Whether or not you packed it has nothing to do with a pre-jump pin check. If you dont trust the guy behind you then ask someone on the load you do trust.
-fifth: Whos the jackass that thinks its nobodies problem but his own? Everybody on that load has the right to check your gear!! Especially when they are all on the same jump! And especially if you are in a outside postion in the door. If that gear that you "didnt want anyone to touch" prematures and wraps the tail then i would say its all of a sudden everyones problem not just yours.
-sixth: All you ego maniacs saying that you dont trust people touching your flaps or that you dont need a pin check because you pack for yourself well........If you dont trust them for something that simple then you shouldnt be on a jump with them.

YOu guys are IDIOTS

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I'm capable of feeling whether or not my pin is in and the bridle is correctly routed. I say, "no thank you, I self-check" when it's offered and promptly do the check to show them that it's done.

If I'm wearing gloves then I ask for a check.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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Man, I dont even know where to begin picking apart your observations in your post...

your observation that everyone is experienced and "knows what they are looking for" -- dont count on it, I have caught an "experienced skydiver" with his rsl fixed to the big ring on the 3rings... stopped an "experienced diver" from turning on his AAD at 3k cuz he forgot to turn it on while on the ground (FXC or astra, dont recall which), seen an "experienced skydiver" with a ROL with a twisted legstrap (someone else caught it) caught an "experienced diver" with a misrouted cheststrap...

I dont know how you load the plane but I have pretty much jumped ever kind available and am extremely carefull of how I move and do not rest against any surface - if however I do scrub against something that makes me question the integrity of my pack I will find someone that I know for a fact has the experience to judge what they are looking for. Unlike you, I do not automatically assume everyone on the load is competent to perform this simple task.

your assertation that everyone on the load has the right to examine anyones gear is completely false - I decide who can and cannot touch mine.

I dont see how you can judge people as "egomaniacs" because they wont let you play with their gear.
With your holyer than thou attitude you wont be touching mine.

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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Hallux, who stepped on your tail??!!

I do not consider it egotistical to ask that someone "know" what they are looking at before they touch it. You may have a gobstop load of jumps but not know if my racer with a pull out is routed correctly. You can't check the p/c being cocked cuz it's in the container and so is all the bridle, you can check the pin, but did you know it supposed to be straight? I don't mind a check from someone who knows some things and can assure me they do, but I do have the right to request my gear be left alone otherwise.

I have had more than a few "experienced" jumpers walk right up to me, grab me, grab my riser and covers and try and stuff one inside the other. Not ask, not advise me first, just grab. Or better yet, start yelling at me in the plane as I get ready for exit as if I was on fire or something. For seven years, those riser covers wouldn't cover my risers with all the crw crap on them, but every dipstick who thinks he can help me has to try without asking.

Leave my gear alone. You can ask and if I think you are qualified and know what you are doing, then I will grant you permission to inspect my gear. And, not everyone on the load has the right to check my gear, that's total bs. They have the right to expect me to do my best not to endanger myself, them, or the aircraft with my equipment.

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I have had more than a few "experienced" jumpers walk right up to me, grab me, grab my riser and covers and try and stuff one inside the other. Not ask, not advise me first, just grab. Or better yet, start yelling at me in the plane as I get ready for exit as if I was on fire or something. For seven years, those riser covers wouldn't cover my risers with all the crw crap on them, but every dipstick who thinks he can help me has to try without asking.



Well yes, that's what you get for doing CRW :P

It's funny though, the looks on people's faces sometimes, with canopy and/or risers/toggles sticking out, toggles attached to mudflaps, knives EVERYWHERE, etc. Although in my experience most people do ASK before touching, at least they ask ONCE :ph34r:

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Why would anyone say no to the opportunity? What's the harm?



I jump a main ripcord with spring-loaded pilot chute. Most jumpers don't know how to deal with that - they'll just mess something up. It's a straight pin, and I seat it the way I like it: deep enough for a firm hold, but not up the shank which can cause it to be bent. I can't trust someone else to position it exactly right like that. Furthermore, the pin protector flap has two "walrus teeth" tuck tabs, and if you tuck them in wrong, it can cause a hesitation as they lock all the flaps together. Those tuck tabs have to go under the side flaps only, not the top flap. I can't trust someone else to know that. So, the odds of someone catching a problem with my pin are low, compared to the odds of someone screwing it up and making things worse. Someone who thinks they're doing me a favor, can actually cause me a problem. I can reach behind me and feel my own pin, to know that it's okay. There are many different types of rigs, with many different types of deployment systems - very few of us can know enough about all of them to handle them correctly. So, please keep your hands off my rig. I don't have time to explain all this on jump run, so just trust me when I say "no", and don't make a big deal about it.

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Man, I dont even know where to begin picking apart your observations in your post...

your observation that everyone is experienced and "knows what they are looking for" -- dont count on it, I have caught an "experienced skydiver" with his rsl fixed to the big ring on the 3rings... stopped an "experienced diver" from turning on his AAD at 3k cuz he forgot to turn it on while on the ground (FXC or astra, dont recall which), seen an "experienced skydiver" with a ROL with a twisted legstrap (someone else caught it) caught an "experienced diver" with a misrouted cheststrap...

I dont know how you load the plane but I have pretty much jumped ever kind available and am extremely carefull of how I move and do not rest against any surface - if however I do scrub against something that makes me question the integrity of my pack I will find someone that I know for a fact has the experience to judge what they are looking for. Unlike you, I do not automatically assume everyone on the load is competent to perform this simple task.

your assertation that everyone on the load has the right to examine anyones gear is completely false - I decide who can and cannot touch mine.

I dont see how you can judge people as "egomaniacs" because they wont let you play with their gear.
With your holyer than thou attitude you wont be touching mine.

Roy




the top part of your response just backed up everything i said. You listed a bunch of things that you caught by gear checking other people. then turned around and said nobody needed to check yours.
If you read my post correctly and completly you would see that I said its ok to get someone you know and trust to check it. YOur 3rd paragraph said exactly what i was saying. AND YES i automatically assume that everyone on a 35 way has the competence to perform a simple pin check!! Thats because we didnt assume they were experienced enough to be on the jump in the first place.

Your logic makes no sense!! What do you think the odds are of someone on that jump not knowing how a to do a pin check???? EXACTLY!! less than those that do know how! So you are saying that since there is a snowballs chance in hell the guy behind you on this jump doesnt know what a correct pin looks like that you are better off not getting a check??? Let me give you some advice....dont go to vegas because your understanding of odds is nonexistant. Also you guys are acting like a pin check means they are tampering with it. Thats not a check! You guys are being silly about this dont touch my gear shit. YOu are better off more times than not by getting a gear check. And it doesnt hurt anything for someone to LOOK at it...and yes we all agree it ok to get someone you know to look at it.
The point here is that you guys are ignoring the factors described by the OP. I hope YOur judgement with gear checks is better than your reading comprehension. And if you are climbing outside that airplane its my right and duty to check your shit. You obviously havent been in a airplane with a premature in the door from some ass that thought he was too good to get a gear check.

I cant believe this line "With your holyer than thou attitude you wont be touching mine."

Im the one with the holy than thou attitude????
Since i give a shit about the safety of the airplane and the jumpers on board You would rather spite me than get a gear check?????

THats awesome!!! you are obviously too good for gear checks. And just so you know shit can happen on a rig without making serious contact or "hard" rubbing.

_to clear some things up. I didnt ever say its ok or someones right to "play" with someone elses gear. A pin check isnt playing with gear its a visual inspection.
_Also you guys are talking about people grabbing at your gear. That was never mentioned in the OP and has nothing to do with pin checks. Of course no one likes grabbing

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Why would anyone say no to the opportunity? What's the harm?



I jump a main ripcord with spring-loaded pilot chute. Most jumpers don't know how to deal with that - they'll just mess something up. It's a straight pin, and I seat it the way I like it: deep enough for a firm hold, but not up the shank which can cause it to be bent. I can't trust someone else to position it exactly right like that. Furthermore, the pin protector flap has two "walrus teeth" tuck tabs, and if you tuck them in wrong, it can cause a hesitation as they lock all the flaps together. Those tuck tabs have to go under the side flaps only, not the top flap. I can't trust someone else to know that. So, the odds of someone catching a problem with my pin are low, compared to the odds of someone screwing it up and making things worse. Someone who thinks they're doing me a favor, can actually cause me a problem. I can reach behind me and feel my own pin, to know that it's okay. There are many different types of rigs, with many different types of deployment systems - very few of us can know enough about all of them to handle them correctly. So, please keep your hands off my rig. I don't have time to explain all this on jump run, so just trust me when I say "no", and don't make a big deal about it.



these are special circumstances and are rare. But yes that is a understandable reason. However once again. Tampering with or "fixing" is different from checking. Most jumpers can recognize a seated pin

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these are special circumstances and are rare. But yes that is a understandable reason. However once again. Tampering with or "fixing" is different from checking. Most jumpers can recognize a seated pin



In order to see my pin, they've got to open the flap. And then when the close the flap, there's a good possibility they'll close the tuck tabs incorrectly, causing me a problem. So I'd rather they just not look in the first place.

A "seated pin" can mean different things to different people. For my straight pin, "seated" means the shank is off the grommet, so it won't get bent. But to many people, since there is still space on the pin behind the loop, they'll try and shove it in further, and that creates the opportunity for it to be bent. So, I'd rather they just leave it alone, instead of enforcing their own version of "seated" on my rig.

Image attached: Do you consider this pin to be properly seated?

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I listed those examples to show you why I wouldnt let just anyone look at my rig, If they can do that to their own why would I trust them checking mine? And how do you know that stranger you have checking your pin has even packed his own rig in the last xx years? Alot of jumpers use packers far more than doing any packing themselves.

maybe the name calling of anyone who disagreed with you brought to mind the "holy than thou attitude"?

And this comment--->
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THats awesome!!! you are obviously too good for gear checks. And just so you know shit can happen on a rig without making serious contact or "hard" rubbing.


I believe you missed --->

if however I do scrub against something that makes me question the integrity of my pack I will find someone that I know for a fact has the experience to judge what they are looking for


I know my rig, aint nothing falling out without some heavy hits/contact everything is covered very well, my closing loop is tight enough that some packers complain about it, perhaps your rig is an older model and the bridle n stuff is more exposed?

Listen... your obviously passionate about this subject, but self policing is quite easy -
your trusting those experienced jumpers on that load to not hit you and kill/render you unconcious in freefall - and they are trusting you do avoid that as well, but you wont grant them the awareness to know when their rig might need an inspection?

and for the record, no I wouldnt avoid a gear check to merely spite you, that would be silly shit beyond words.

But like I said, only people I know and trust will check my rig.

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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Why would anyone say no to the opportunity? What's the harm? Am I missing something extremely obvious here? I don't get it.



From looking at jump videos I've found that my main flap comes open in free fall a lot when I've had a pin check versus nearly never when I haven't. So I don't get pin checks unless I've rubbed against something.

I have no idea what's so much harder about getting the tuck tab back in place correctly on a standing skydiver versus the rig laying on the ground but it happened a lot.

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Why would anyone say no to the opportunity? What's the harm? Am I missing something extremely obvious here? I don't get it.



A. I check it myself.

B. I jump a pull-out and 75% of the people I meet don't know what one is, how to check it, and what they are looking for.

I am always happy to explain the system to people, but after the jump on the ground.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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This is understandable, but something I'd obviously not thought of.

The few times I've been on a solo jump, others have bent me over and checked my rig for me, giving it that slap to let me know all is well. They aren't my instructors, some of them weren't even coaches. But I thought they were being nice and a third check never hurt.

Am I wrong?

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