RSL

[imsparticus 0]

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Maybe another, more dramatic, example would help to clarify. There is the story of a woman in SoCal who turned on her AAD when she was at home. The elevation at home was something like 1500 feet below the elevation of the airport and its landing area. She had a mal, and went in while she was waiting for the AAD to fire.

No doubt, this example is far more extreme, but it illustrates the point that you really must not rely on the secondary systems like the RSL or AAD. If you really aren't relying on the RSL, you will be pulling the silver handle at about the time you are feeling the reserve starting to open.

she told everyone this after she went in?

[riggerpaul 1]

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Maybe another, more dramatic, example would help to clarify. There is the story of a woman in SoCal who turned on her AAD when she was at home. The elevation at home was something like 1500 feet below the elevation of the airport and its landing area. She had a mal, and went in while she was waiting for the AAD to fire.

No doubt, this example is far more extreme, but it illustrates the point that you really must not rely on the secondary systems like the RSL or AAD. If you really aren't relying on the RSL, you will be pulling the silver handle at about the time you are feeling the reserve starting to open.

she told everyone this after she went in?

No, The AAD analysis told us that the AAD had been turned on when she was at the elevation of her home.

The rest of the story, of course, is the result of the investigations that followed.

Is this the best you have to offer to the discussion?

(Added in subsequent edit.)

I apologize for my outburst. I really try not to resort to stuff like that last line, but I found the post particularly frustrating.

Please excuse my rude behavior.

[Sletzer 3]

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Hi Sletzer,


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With a skyhook just getting the reserve started is quite a feat.

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The SkyHook cannot perform its function ( get started ) UNTIL the ripcord pin has been pulled. Getting the ripcord pin pulled ( getting the reserve started ) is a function of the RSL and not the SkyHook.

For the record: IMO, I do not consider a MARD to be a RSL in and of itself. It is an additional feature of a RSL.

I hope, that if you are jumping a rig with a SkyHook, that you completely understand how it works.

As parachute systems become more & more complex it is very important that the users ( and yes, the riggers ) understand the function of these systems and the order in which they function ( perform their tasks ); again, IMO.

JerryBaumchen

I was implying that it was "quite a feat" because a skyhook works very quickly and it's hard to even begin the reserve pull before the reserve is fully inflated. That's simply based off of my own observations, and the observations of others demoing the system during the same event. The vast majority didn't even bother to try to pull the reserve handle, but I thought it prudent that I completed the EP's. Sorry for the confusion. I actually don't have an RSL/MARD of any sort on my rig. That's why it was important for me to pull both handles when I did that cutaway (good practice). I'm seriously considering these devices on my next rig, which is why I was demoing them. Thank you for the clarification, though. I actually did not know the specifics of how the skyhook worked. It is, however, something I plan to fully investigate before I make a purchase decision.

I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows*

SCS #8251

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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... I actually did not know the specifics of how the skyhook worked. It is, however, something I plan to fully investigate before I make a purchase decision.

Just a suggestion...

Watch a rigger pack a reserve with the skyhook.

If he/she is very kind, you might get to see how it pulls out too. The deployment sequence, and the difference betwen the skyhook actication and the reserve ripcord activation is pretty cool.

For me anyway, seeing how it is set up goes a long way to fully understand how it works.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[pirana 0]

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But the fact remains that if you do not complete your emergency procedure, you have something to do better next time.

That's a good way to put it. If the situation calls for arch-look-reach-pull, followed by reach-pull; then when it does come up, that is what I am doing. Finish the sequence.

Kind of like when a batter gets totally fooled by a great breaking ball. They know they are gonna miss it before it even gets to the plate, no chance of getting the stick on the ball. But they finish the swing anyway. Not a great example consequence-wise, just from the standpoint that if you are acting with serious intent, finish the sequence.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[mjosparky 3]

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she told everyone this after she went in?

I see that you have 17 years in the sport and jump a cypress. I would think that you know enough about your gear to understand how the information on this woman’s AAD was gathered. She did not have a malfunction but for some reason did not pull her main. Just before impact she did pull the reserve and had partial line deployment. It takes patience and time but in most cases the sequences of events can be determined.
So to answer your question, yes, in a way she did tell us what happened after she went in.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,384]

>doesn't mean next time I cutaway I am going to wait on the RSL because
>it worked so grandly this time . . .

Right, but we do what we practice to do, and we do what we did in the past. If you have a cutaway or two, and you get used to not pulling silver, then the next time you have a cutaway and your RSL gets disconnected there may be a "OK, cutaway, looks good . . . OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT WHERE'S THE FUCKING RESERVE HANDLE, THAT'S NOT IT THAT'S THE DAMN HARNESS RING, OH SHIT There it is . . ." (there's even a video like this on Youtube)

Not because you consciously thought "I won't pull the reserve handle" but because that's what you did the last few times and it worked out just fine. Getting in the practice of always pulling silver even when you don't need to can avoid that.

[imsparticus 0]

thats right billvon becaues the only time you ever get a chance to locate your reserve handle is when you having a mal! all of a sudden one event where the reserve came out faster than you had a chance to pull your handle (not the most likely senario by the way) is going to erase the 1000's of time you went through your emergency prceedures on the ground or other mals where you got to the handle. better pull the handle just in case i forget for next time. pfffffffffft get over yourselves its this sort of micro managing that really turns me off skydiving it trully is the nanny sport!

my poition is: finishing the proceedure after the reserve is out only complicates matters, takes your focus off the real task at hand, will not help me in the future when my rsl is disconnected would not have helped that girl who went in or any other unfortunate soul who couldnt pull their handle in time.

I am not avocating relying on your rsl or any other device I still think you should pull your handles like the rsl isnt there but if by chance your reserve is over your head before you got to the handle, fine pull it if you think its gonna help you in the future. but others that have moved on and are more interested in their reserve and their approach should NOT be repremanded. especially not by those who have never been in the position to have there reserve out before they got to the handle, sometimes it happens shocking fast (holy fuck i cant believe my reserve is open) an it take alot to get the focus back on the handle which is not where your focus should be anyhow).

For what its worth I do not have an rsl

end rant

[SwampGod 0]

muscle memory is an amazing thing. i preach it. i practice it. i go through a mock deployment and cutaway sequence dern near every jump. i teach students not to over-think total malfunctions or emergency exits, as even if we "waste time" cutting away a non-deployed parachute, it's still quicker than freezing up and doing nothing.

situational awareness is also an amazing thing. as in, the ability to assess a situation and be aware of the proper response. sometimes, blindly going to the cutaway handle then immediately to silver is not the best course of action.

sometimes the best way to avoid a traffic accident is to hit the brakes. other times, we should hit the gas....

my only cutaway was after a wrap. the situation started around 4000', and i had time to sort it out. i first had to untangle the other jumper's pilot chute from my foot. after i cut away, i paused for a brief second to make sure i was clear of the whole mess before deploying my reserve.

my left hand was on the silver handle, ready to go. no RSL on my CRW rig, so i wasn't waiting for that. i was ensuring a clean deployment, and used that split second to be a bit more belly to earth.

granted i was at a higher altitude, and still altitude aware. i wouldn't have paused lower down, and may not have even cut away in the first place.

i think muscle memory can help us pull the handles in the right order. situational awareness ensures we think-- instead of blindly applying the same procedure to every emergency.

exact training cannot prepare us for every situation, because not every emergency fits into a category with an exact label.

but even so, we do teach not cutting away under 1000 feet, something that relies on situational awareness. we'll tell a student to go directly for the silver handle when getting out of an airplane low in an emergency. and apart from what i teach students, i know i won't cutaway a non-deployed canopy.

my wrap and all of the above are departures from, or introduce conscious pauses to, "cutaway->silver."

i feel adaptability is a good thing, part of what makes us smarter (by a hair) than iPhones.

-eli

[mjosparky 3]

That’s your position and you have every right to hold that opinion. But the fact is your position goes against the main stream thinking of how best to train newer jumpers to survive in this sport. The habits you develop early on as a jumper are what you will revert to when things start going to shit in a fast and furious way. As was stated earlier unless you fall asleep after pulling the cutaway handle you should have already pulled the reserve by the time you have an open canopy. You have nothing else to do with this time so why waste it.

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For what its worth I do not have an rsl

Is there any particular reason you chose not to use and RSL?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DSE 3]

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Is there any particular reason you chose not to use and RSL?

Sparky

I choose not to use one because I'm primarily jumping camera and/or wingsuit and an RSL/MARD isn't for me. In those areas, it can be just as harmful as helpful.
However, were I jumping in any other discipline, or were I a newer jumper, I'm a proponent of RSL or MARD use.

[imsparticus 0]

1)my rigs previous owner lost it and i cant be bothered and am to tight to buy a new one

2)it isnt a requirement of the apf to have one when you are cypress equipt

3)i feel that by having a cypress the rsl presents more problems "for me" than it solves as the cypress can solve "for me" most of what the rsl can.

if i didnt have a cypress i still wouldnt have an rsl for the same reasons, I believe an rsl could hurt "me" more often than it could help "me" (ie, now for one I wont get complacent about pulling my reserve handle hehe. The way you guys are carring on this would almost be reason enough not to have an rsl), by "me" i do not mean everyone/skydivers just "ME". I have no idea about "you" by you i mean every other skydiver I trust you will choose to do what is trully best for you given the best available unbiast information at the time i mean noone values your life more than you, and whatever you choose is ok with me, respect!

[imsparticus 0]

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But the fact is your position goes against the main stream thinking of how best to train newer jumpers to survive in this sport. The habits you develop early on as a jumper are what you will revert to when things start going to shit in a fast and furious way.
Sparky

Only root karate come from Miyagi. Just like bonsai choose own way grow because root strong you choose own way do karate same reason.

[councilman24 36]

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thats right billvon becaues the only time you ever get a chance to locate your reserve handle is when you having a mal! all of a sudden one event where the reserve came out faster than you had a chance to pull your handle (not the most likely senario by the way) is going to erase the 1000's of time you went through your emergency prceedures on the ground or other mals where you got to the handle. better pull the handle just in case i forget for next time. pfffffffffft get over yourselves its this sort of micro managing that really turns me off skydiving it trully is the nanny sport!

Do you really think your ground practice counts? That reserve handle can end up in some case more than a foot from where you think it is. And in an emergency situation people have pulled just about everything else they could thinking it was a reserve handle. IF your hanging under a fully open and flying reserve by the time you would get around to pulling your ripcord, probably no sense in pulling it. But you also took too damn long. Best to do what your trained, as fast as appropriate. In many cases the only way we can tell if someone beat the RSL, rare, or convince them that they didn't is to show them the kink in the cable. (for most RSL's) Since you DON'T HAVE an RSL perhaps you don't realize that an RSL may beat you pulling the reserve but you can beat the main opening.

And we've been discussing another in another thread why an RSL did clear. We're unsure if the ripcord had been pulled or not. But if not, pulling the ripcord cable out may well have cleared it.

I had one fairly aware customer who had a tangled main PC, wrapped around his harness. He cutaway and hesitated thinking "my RSL will pull the reserve". Then realized that he hadn't cutaway from a main to pull the RSL. Pulled his reserve and lived. But how long would someone wait?

Train, practice, and perform. If something beats you, great.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,384]

>thats right billvon becaues the only time you ever get a chance to locate
>your reserve handle is when you having a mal!

For most people, that's true. Most people do not do hanging harness practice with their own gear, and thus the only time they get to locate their reserve handle where it will actually be is during a mal.

>is going to erase the 1000's of time you went through your emergency
>prceedures on the ground

One actual experience is worth a great many fake experiences - especially when the handle is in the wrong place.

>finishing the proceedure after the reserve is out only complicates matters. . .

It simplifies matters. You have one procedure. Period. That's simpler than two or three.

> takes your focus off the real task at hand . . .

The real task at hand is to ensure a canopy before impact. Pulling the reserve handle is a good way to help ensure that. Not pulling it isn't.

>will not help me in the future when my rsl is disconnected . . .

EXACTLY! So pull the handle every time Practice for that time when your RSL is disconnected.

>especially not by those who have never been in the position to have there
> reserve out before they got to the handle . . .

Happened to me twice. I still pulled the reserve handle. It's good insurance.

[mjosparky 3]

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Only root karate come from Miyagi

http://www.miyagieyewear.com/

I prefer to get mine at lenscrafters.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[toolbox 0]

Very well put and 100% right. Rock on dude!

[imsparticus 0]

actually ive changed my mind you guys are right burn them at the stake thats what they deserve, had the rsl not been their its obvious that they would be dead, they have no chance next time they have a mal anyhow now there proceedures have been scrambled by this even, crusify them!

[mjosparky 3]

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actually ive changed my mind you guys are right

Knowing this will allow me to sleep better tonight.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[oozzee 0]

option

[mjosparky 3]

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option

??????

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals