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MALFUNCTION: what would you do if...?

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You're the one who used the term "blindly follow" what the instructor says. Maybe if you said what you really ment we wouldn't disagree. I really don't think we disagree at all but what you are saying now is not what you were saying then. As for coming here for "advise", if you think we are all a bunch of fucking morons why do you come here and hangout with us?

Now go edit or delete that post to.

Anything else you want to argue about with me today.



IM not arguing with you. I was posting in response to the OP.

Not sure why you have a problem that I deleted a couple of posts that were off topic.
Maybe because I said that "Spence not agreeing with me is a given." Maybe you think i deleted the entire post about 2000ft hop n pop because of that sentance, I dont know. Maybe you are really that self centered. You sure had to mention it again like I am lying or something or like you have been offended by me deleting a post by accident.

Your the last person I want to talk to let alone argue with. I try to stay away from the filth you spend half your life talking about in this place, Talking to you is the last thing I wanted to do when I posted in this thread.
I never thought I would reply to this person and some banana would come along and start ragging on because of my opinion, and acting all old man tough on me.

I never said anything about people here being morons or 'fucking morons' and coming to here to hang out with fucking morons.
I dont come here to hang out with you spence as for you talking on behalf of the rest of the website and putting words into my mouth, then yes I would tend to think you are one for coming to that conclusion.
Even a bigger fucking moron as you so put it by being such a fool that you have to make it sound like I am attacking your friends. Where you get that from, I have no idea. I dont really care either.

"Anything else I want to argue with you about today?"

Spence, I have no respect for you, never have, never will. So arguing with you would be like arguing with a brick wall in my opinion. There is no point even trying to talk to someone like yourself who takes such offence from another persons point of view. I leared that lesson years ago and that is why for the past four years you have never seen me reply to anything you have said first. I stay away from you because you remind me of those horrible moments in life when shit is coming out of both ends of the body.

I said my opinion and you come back at me saying that I think everyone here is a bunch of fucking morons. No Poppa bear, I only think that of you.
I never even had to say it though, You know i think that so you personally attacked me by making it out like i said that or think that about this site that I respect so much. As far as I am concerned, I do everything i can to stay away from you and your bullshit on this website. it is you that follows me around like a bad shit stain.

Anything else you want to argue with me today? LMAO. LMAO. LMAO. LMAO.

Good one tough guy. Did you puff your chest out as well when you typed that?

So I am very sorry big daddy that you are so offended by me that you need to start saying i think people here are 'fucking morons'. I only think that about you now that you mention it and I will continue living my life without giving you a single thought if that is ok with you.

Now I would like it if I could continue being a part of this thread without you posting directly to me and asking me anymore questions as I would rather get food poisoning and be stuck on a toilet all day than continue having you asking me questions.

Thanks Spence. Glad we understand each other.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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I call bullshit on blindly following what an instructor says. I've seen some instrutors say some pretty stupid shit.

I really don't see why you are so upset about this guy giving us something to discuss here.



I'll side more with this answer than Bigway's.

I'd rather have a student who questions things.

Having someone question things is not the same as them going off and doing whatever they want!

Nor does it mean someone is disruptive and holds up the training process by asking a million questions.

One can "listen to" an instructor, do what they say, but still ask questions to learn more.

In the original post, the novice's answer isn't very good, but the instructor's (if reported accurately) isn't the best either.



When I agreed to 'blindly', I agreed to that term on a different level than it was meant I think.
What I meant is exactly what you have posted.

A student should be trained by their instructor and taught by their instructor, other people should keep out of it. At the same time it is a very important part of the process that the student asks questions of their instructor when they are unsure as to what the instructor meant or if they do not understand the logic behind what the instructor said. I still strongly do not believe a student should come here for answers, they should ask the instructor. I also believe those that try to teach the student over forums what contradicts the instructors teachings is way out of line and can be very dangerous. Posters here should reply to the student that they need to ask the instructor and be comfortable about asking the instructor, they should not be given contradicting advice to what the instructor has said as nobody here knows the full story and they only know the story from the students perspective and not from the experienced instructors perspective.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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People jump from planes at 2000 feet all day long. its called a hop n pop.

Not the situation he was asking a question about.
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You need to listen to your instructor FULL STOP.

Concur. But he then asked a different though related question, which I answered.
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Show some fucking respect for your instructor who is teaching you. He is making sure you live and you come here to get a second opinion.???/ Seriously, WTF!!:S

Read the question again. He's not getting a second opinion, he's asking what other people would do. With their gear, which is not his gear; with their experience, which is not his experience; with their skills, which are not his skills; and we would have turned more point in the meantime too. Also, when I answered his question, his profile was empty. He will have to realise for himself then that an answer from someone with more experience, more skills and different gear may not apply to his situation.
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The two people who told you to turn and pull silver. One of them has 1500 jumps over 11 years, that means this person does an average of 11 jumps a month. Obviously not an instructor. (nothing personal). The other person has 130 or 170 jumps over two years, again not an instructor... but you are willing to take that advice and say it makes more sense?

That would be me. No, I am not an instructor, you can check my profile for that. I don't think my jump numbers have anything to do with that (I would have had less if I had made instructor). You are guessing and assuming an awful lot, Mr Bigway.
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That is seriously fucked up and it seriously fucked up those people giving you contradicting advice to what you have said your instructor has already given you.

Again, I was not giving advice, I was answering his question.
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People, it is obvious this guy with 60 jumps has no idea what to do, from the answer he gave. He was then told by his instructor what to do and he comes to these forums to ask what you all think.

it is irresponsible of you to then give contradicting advice to a new skydiver who obviously does not know what to do and obviously does not listen to their instructor.

Really irresponsible.

Stop telling me I was giving advice!

What made you so mad? Didn't get any last night?

What do you think'll happen when he next shows up at a DZ, tells his instructor he got all these different answers from all different people, maybe his instructor will tear him a new assh*le and explain why his answer is correct and our answers are correct for us but not for him? A vis-a-vis which will be much more impressive to him than some random story on duh Innernet, and which can be tailored to him better than we can ever hope to do over duh same f*cking Innernet? >:(
Johan.
I am. I think.

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Sorry Johan, my reply was not really meant towards you. It was meant ina proactive way that nobody would further come into the thread and put what they would do in that situation to the forum as I believed it is something he has to ask his instructor about and not take ideas from others.

That is why I had put in brackets that is was nothing personal towards you.

I dont think you were giving advice but in his mind you were. that is why he said 'thatt makes more sense'. he listened to you and that is what he took away from it and i dontthink it is right for him to take advice away from the thread that contradicts what his instructor has said.

I dont know if what I just wrote made any sense but if you cant understand what I am trying to say then, im sorry about that. Continue flaming away.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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What do you think'll happen when he next shows up at a DZ, tells his instructor he got all these different answers from all different people, maybe his instructor will tear him a new assh*le and explain why his answer is correct and our answers are correct for us but not for him



That is what concerns me.... maybe he wont turn up and tell his instructor that he got different answers. Maybe he will just keep it to himself and his instructor will find out the hard way when it is too late.

I am not bad at the guy, I was trying to make him see that I felt strongly about the importance of him speaking to his instructor and not coming here to get the explanations that he needs to get from his instructor.

Is what I am saying really that wrong?


I said what I believe in my heart.

I must be wrong cause i only feel like i am constantly defending myself here now so I shall leave the thread with my head hung low and shamed.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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>He seemed to suggest that I should instead pull (the main!) . . .

I would advise that as well. You are better off opening your main instantly than fumbling for 2-3 seconds to find a handle you have never touched in freefall before. You may then have to deal with a two-out if you have an AAD; that is generally preferable to being in freefall with nothing out at 1000 feet.

>Sounds crazy too me - a sure way of getting into a nasty mess!

Being at 1500 feet in a 4-way is a nasty mess. There is no right answer to what to do then, only less-wrong answers. At those altitudes you have time to do one thing, and that's get a canopy over your head. If you have practiced opening your reserve in freefall (ideally, have actually done it) then your reserve might be a better choice. But if you have not, then you will be much faster opening your main. Indeed, if you are like most skydivers, you will not be able to do anything else.

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whoa.....

time for chilling,,, i'd say...


the OP was ASKING what OTHERS??? would do....

NOT whether or not the OP should do "what they wanted" OR "what the instructor said"..
big difference....

so now we know that bigway votes for.....
follow the instructors' "advice" and that cspencefly votes for ,,, " assessing what the instructor says,,,and THEN deciding"....


ah variety.. the spice of life.....
are you surprised that there are MANY ways to look at a situation???

i suppose that while still on instructor supervision, a student is better off to follow the words of said instructor..... just for the sake of continuity and soas to NOT confuse things.....

BUT not ALL those with a rating are bonafide geniuses.. and ( gasp !!! ) sometimes. even a ratings holder can say something which can be questioned....
questioned by another instructor?? sure. but off and to the side, and NEVER in front of a student...:|
questioned by an experienced jumper but NOT rating holder?? sure again,,, but again , off to the side, and in private....[:/]
Questioned by the student???? I can't see why NOT ....
that is how subjects are dissected and topics are broken down, so that alll facets of the subject can be discussed...it's part of how we learn....

The OP was asking those here, ( of allll sorts of experience levels ) to chime in...
Of course there will be a variety of opinions.. and the right answer for a novice, may be different from the right answer for an experienced jumper..

The Internet,,, CAN be a good source for recognizing that there are OFTEN many answers for the same question...

Whether to follow one persons' advice over another, is up to the reader...
I too have seen many an instructor say things, which made me scratch my head, and worse, DO things, in the course of a skydive/ canopy descent which also made me shake my head and wonder.....

no one is infallible... not you, not me,, not spence..

BUT we ARE all 'sorta in this together",,, so Can't we at least,,,, TRY to play nice???

jmy
uspa 9452
4 stack 930
scr scs nscr 1817

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Sure, it just seemed like the OP was looking for a answer he would rather here than what he heard.

It did not sound to me like he was going to decide if he should take away different advice and use it. it sounded to me llike he took the first thing that was said that was different from what his instructor had told him.

Some people arent looking for a bunch of ideas to then decide if they should use that or not, some people just want their instructor to be wrong and it seemed this guy accepted the first thing that was said that was a different opinion. he made that clear by saying 'thanks, that makes more sense' or whatever it was he said.

I was not mad, I was trying to use 'toughlove'. my bad. i see now it did not come across that way.


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And what I did was explain his instructor's answer, which he apparently didn't take time to do, and confirming his answer for the most part.

I used to HATE the student who would bring out printed answers from wreck.skydiving and say 'This guy says I should do this!". Then I'd spend 20 minutes telling him why the answer was wrong for him. So for the most part I don't contradict instructors or alternate advice.

But, I've also watched an instructor, as late as the 90's, tell students that with a PC in tow they should roll over, pull in the PC in tow, and roll back face to earth before pulling there reserve. Seriously.

Before my second first jump course in 1980 I read EVERY back issue of Parachutist. That times equivelent of getting outside information. :P
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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At your level that turn will take a second or two, start a track another second, track 2 seconds, stop track reach and pull another 1 or 2 seconds. You hit the ground just about the time you pull your pilot chute out. You just spent the rest of life trying to avoid a POSSIBLE canopy collision. And your AAD probably fired and save your butt sometime in here.




Reacting to and following through with a certain procedure is something the OP should be discussing with his instructor.

As Terry points out here, the underlying problem as I see it is the jumpers unawareness of speed & time.

It should be part of any instructional course...120 mph = 176 FPS.

Waste any of 'em at or below the hard deck and there my not be enough left to get the 'last play' in before the gun.

I would suggest to the OP he take a look at his altimeter up high and try the procedure he's asking about...relate the reaction & task completion time to burning through 1500' and he will have a 'real world' example/experience regarding what the best thing to do is.


The failing here isn't in the 'students' not understanding what to do...it the WHY.

A better illustration of why pulling in place is the only recommended procedure removes the need for additional discussion.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Are you kidding.:S Nobody knew what grounding was in the early 90's. Half this crew was probably on coke or shrooms at the time. Actually there really wasn't a DZO. One guy had the student gear and ran that. Another guy owned the airplanes and flew them. Can't even remember how we figured out which load was next. DZ was a place next to the runway on the opposite side from the FBO. The boys room was around the left side of the big bush. The girls room was around the right side.

Grounded, no. Decided not to throw horny gorillas at the end of eight ways with chest mount altimeters and no audibles on the market (except para-alert still have one).
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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I just got sick of the aggressive replies Spence to everything i said. After a while it becomes more personal than friendly.




Kind of like the aggressive reply that you gave the OP.;)


I was going to send this in a PM but decided it might be better done in public.

I went through some tough times a few years back and was not myself either here or in person. I'd like to apologize for whatever I did to make you feel this way toward me

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Look, I dont think anyones answer was the wrong answer.
I just read the OP and I caught an undertone.
I deal with 100 newbie emails every single day. I caught an undertone in his original post and straight away recognized that to be of a student who thinks he gave the correct answer, an educated answer that he believes in and he wanted to hear anything different from anyone else on this site so you he could go away in his mind thinking 'i knew it, my instuctor was wrong'. I dont believe he was then going to the instructor and to talk to him about it, i think he was going to make his mind up that he was right to be second guessing his instructor and anything his instructor says to him in the future.
Maybe i read too much in to it, but most students respect and love their instructor in a way. Those people dont come here and use crooked smiley faces next to their instructors advice when they also use crooked smiley faces when they say their answer and that their instructor though it was a bad answer.

His answer made him look like he had no clue, and for him to post it like that, the way he did, he obviously was a bit proud of his answer. He wanted to hear if we thought his answer was correct or his instructors was wrong or anything else different from his instructors so he could walk away knowing that his instructor was wrong.

Noway do i believe he has any intention to approach his instructor and bring this up, hes just set his mind to believe that he should not listen to that instructor anymore.

Thats what I got from the email. I read hundreds of student posts in this forum and i dont reply to any of them. I replied to that one because of the massive undertone i instantly recognized.

That is why I said what I said, in hopes that nobody would continue empowering his disbelief in his instructor.

This website use to have a standard response to students and it was 'Go and speak to your instructor'.

IN this case, I believe in everything sacred that this was the only response this particular poster should of got.

For thos that think he was coming here to discuss things and make a decision on what he would take back to his instructor, i think you missed the undertone. MAybe you can see it by re reading it and then seeing how he was so fast to say thanks for the responses, that makes sense cause the reserve opens faster and then walks away with his mind made up. I am sure his instructor would have put more time into teaching him than two sentances that he read before agreeing that was the correct way that made sense.

Alarm bells went off in my head and I reacted. I have not reacted like that for a long time and i did because i believe my feeling was right. I still do.

I dont think anyones answers were wrong, i just think those that gave thier opinion of what they would do did not think about how he phrased his post and how he showed no respect for his instructors chat with him.
Surely it would mean something just for an instructor to go up to a B licensed jumper and drill him on emergency procedures in the first place. Maybe he is a problem student so to speak.

I dont know, I just know the alarms went off big time for me.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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What do you think'll happen when he next shows up at a DZ, tells his instructor he got all these different answers from all different people, maybe his instructor will tear him a new assh*le and explain why his answer is correct and our answers are correct for us but not for him

That is what concerns me.... maybe he wont turn up and tell his instructor that he got different answers. Maybe he will just keep it to himself and his instructor will find out the hard way when it is too late.

I am not bad at the guy, I was trying to make him see that I felt strongly about the importance of him speaking to his instructor and not coming here to get the explanations that he needs to get from his instructor.

Is what I am saying really that wrong?

I said what I believe in my heart.

I must be wrong cause i only feel like i am constantly defending myself here now so I shall leave the thread with my head hung low and shamed.


You said too much, I said not enough. I took him at his word, you read more than there really was (you were probably correct, too :)
But you seem to have dried up a little. Got lucky over lunch? :P (or am I having my TZs all wrong now?)
Johan.
I am. I think.

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Once again 'Twardo is spot on.

The biggest concern is that you don't seem to understand why your answer is wrong before questioning your instructors.

Was your answer based on 'that's what I do on a normal skydive', or did you actually think through the situation before answering?

When you've sussed out the 'why's' in skydiving, then you can start making intelligent decisions. Until then, listen to your instructors. They know better than you - if you don't understand why they're advising something, ASK for an explanation! they'll be happy to help! :)

For me, 1500 is my hard deck, so that answers the question of which handle I'm pulling. What's your hard deck? Have you thought about this yet and do you understand why it's important to have made this decision before you're in the shit?

I'd also pull in place. First things first - I want to get out of freefall! I'll also be ready to haul on a rear right riser as soon as I have any control and hope my jumpmates will do the same.

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I am sure his instructor would have put more time into teaching him than two sentances that he read before agreeing that was the correct way that made sense.

Shouldn't the instructor have done that the first time? What makes you think he'll do it now?

(that's an honest question - I want to know because that's one problem I see.)
Johan.
I am. I think.

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I've watched 8 way horny gorillas bust 1000'. Everybody pulled their main and lived. Same group did it twice in two weeks.



????
WTF?
On the face of it, grounded for the season...I hope?



+1 on that...

Blindly following anyone makes no sense. If the most experienced jumper alive or the newest jumper has any questions, I would hope they could find a "friendly" place to get their questions answered. The fact that the OP asked this is evidence that he/she has some questions.

Of course we'd like to see them having this discussion with their instructors. However, at the very least, we'd hope they would check in with their instructor on what they've learned here. Give your instructor a chance to verify your understanding of this or any situation.

I know exactly what I would do in this situation! That's not the same thing I would advise you to do. Nor would I advise you to listen to me or any above poster. Take in all this discussion. And then, talk with your instructor about all this. Evaluate the scenario with him/her until you have a thorough understanding of what "YOU" should do. Put that information away in case you should ever need it.

The best advice for this situation is… Altitude awareness!!!
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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