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LyraM45 0
QuoteQuoteSince BBarnhouse is commenting on this thread;
What would occur should I show up at Eloy with my VASST or FlockUniversity banner and put it up during say...the holiday boogie? Perhaps there was a wingsuit event and a lot of Flock University people were there, or VASST sponsored a breakfast for three days...would our windblade be allowed?
Same thing-- HUGE HUGE HUGE difference. You are comparing a private function to the USPA Nationals. Keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges if you are going to reach for those comparisons.
OK, change up the parameters.
(hypothetical)
Say I walked on to SDA during Nationals last year and wanted to put up windblades. I volunteered for four days of the event and spent several hours before the event.
I want to put up a windblade, but didn't ask in advance. I'm volunteering for what effectively worked out for the whole event, including several thousand dollars in gear.
Should I be permitted to put up a windblade on SDU's property?
Keep in mind, I'm not a competitor, but I've put every bit as much time and money into this event as most competitors, certainly as much as any pickup team does/did.
I am entirely positive I could not.
Again, I understand people being upset/angry/bothered by the new position of USPA/Spaceland, as it doesn't seem to have been communicated very well (if at all, prior to the announcement of Nationals). But...in the world in which I work, this sort of thing is entirely common. Minor differences, but the size of the events are similar, memberships are similar, etc.
I'd like to better understand where the actual tort lies vs what people *think* is wrong. Is there actually a stipulation in a sponsorship contract that says "Sponsored jumper will perform XXXX at events" vs merely using, displaying, and talking about their gear in public settings? If so, I can see where there might be some interference issues. Otherwise, I'm not quite understanding the actual vs virtual problem?
Do I think you should have been able to put up your banner at your video station that was helping out the national competition? Yes, I sure do. Do they have to let you? Probably not and it's only going to effect you, but to put a blanket rule out there that could possibly effect you and every competitor that could possibly stop them from competing if their sponsors pull out (and they were their primary or only form of funding for the competition.) because of this new rule (I don't think that will really happen a lot across the board, but it might which is why it needs to be talked about.).
You can choose to not volunteer your time next year at the nationals if they won't let you post your banner or windblade at your video station, but these competitors can not just choose to go to nationals without a sponsor if this new rule is going to keep sponsors from sponsoring them (possibly.. like I said, this might not be true for majority.) This is not their choice. Either they have funding/sponsors, or they don't compete. You either choose to volunteer your time or you don't. It's not a matter of competition for you.
BTW about the whole volunteer thing, regardless of where the windblade thing happened to you, if I owned a DZ and you were helping me out with my boogie or competition by volunteering your time or talents, I would at least have offered you the luxury of displaying your logo somewhere or handing out business cards. FWIW, I think they should have at least done that in thanks, but like I said, that is another topic not quite similar to this one.
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)
Putting up your windblade next to "sponsor" wind blades might not fly. Putting up your wind blade on the grass next to the packing tent your brought with you and set up in an approved area to "mark your territory" is something different.
The DZ can make any rules they want. I'd just hope that USPA wouldn't choose to host nationals at a DZ that won't let a team put up their own shade tent provided to them by their sponsor because the sponsor didn't pay a fee.
Setting up an unauthorized booth at a trade show is something different. Displaying the name of your sponsor, which is probably in your team name, on your shade tent is not in the same league.
Got my GetHypoxic sticker while in the video line at nationals... Isn't it silly that handing out stickers won't be allowed at this year's nationals?
Dave
The DZ can make any rules they want. I'd just hope that USPA wouldn't choose to host nationals at a DZ that won't let a team put up their own shade tent provided to them by their sponsor because the sponsor didn't pay a fee.
Setting up an unauthorized booth at a trade show is something different. Displaying the name of your sponsor, which is probably in your team name, on your shade tent is not in the same league.
Got my GetHypoxic sticker while in the video line at nationals... Isn't it silly that handing out stickers won't be allowed at this year's nationals?
Dave
LyraM45 0
QuotePutting up your windblade next to "sponsor" wind blades might not fly. Putting up your wind blade on the grass next to the packing tent your brought with you and set up in an approved area to "mark your territory" is something different.
Exactly what I've been trying to say.
QuoteThe DZ can make any rules they want. I'd just hope that USPA wouldn't choose to host nationals at a DZ that won't let a team put up their own shade tent provided to them by their sponsor because the sponsor didn't pay a fee.
I hope so too.
QuoteSetting up an unauthorized booth at a trade show is something different. Displaying the name of your sponsor, which is probably in your team name, on your shade tent is not in the same league.
Exactly what I've been trying to say.
QuoteGot my GetHypoxic sticker while in the video line at nationals... Isn't it silly that handing out stickers won't be allowed at this year's nationals?
Yes!!!
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)
MakeItHappen 15
Quote
-Transferred simultaneously to OmniSkore
-Backed up the data so when OmniSkore or the DVD burners failed (as they did numerous times) the video flyer didn't need to come back and recapture, we simply recalled the data
-Archived all the media for USPA so that any jump at any time could be reviewed, or used for creating a DVD of jumps (I still feel USPA could generate a small revenue stream by releasing a DVD of winning team jumps)
FYI
Omniskore has never been in the stream of capturing or recording videos directly from photographers. That part of the process has always been with the host. I've worked both sides of that equation and know who does what.
Tamara Koyn publishes dvds of each nationals of the jumps per discipline.
.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
QuoteSo he doesn't want a DZ to take steps to break even or make a profit while holding nationals
All things being equal, I'm sure everybody would want the DZ to turn a fantastic profit off of the event, but in the end that's the DZOs business, not mine.
When you have to limit the competitors to make it work, all things ar no longer equal. In comparison to previous years, the competitors are at a disadvanatge because the DZ wanted an advantage. It's not hard to understand why people would be upset about that concpet.
If you bid on Nationals, you're saying that you can run the meet to the standards of the USPA for a certain dollar figure. If you want to increase your margins (and decreasing your expected loss is the same as increasing your margins) then build a better mousetrap, and find a way to host Nationals while spending less.
They have not built a better mousetrap, they've skewed the playing field in their favor and they will benefit from it. It's not the accepted practice, it's not in the spirit of a competition held by a membership driven (and funded) organization for the sole participation of it's members, and it's just wrong.
dqpacker 7
Quotebut in the end that's the DZOs business, not mine.
Quote
Your best statement yet.QuoteWhen you have to limit the competitors to make it work, all things ar no longer equal. In comparison to previous years, the competitors are at a disadvanatge because the DZ wanted an advantage. It's not hard to understand why people would be upset about that concpet.
How are the competitors at a disadvantage? Do wind blades make them better fliers, does having a custom packing tent compared to a plain colored tent up their averages? I don't think so. Last I heard Nationals was about skydiving not who has the coolest windblades or stickers.
LyraM45 0
QuoteHow are the competitors at a disadvantage? Do wind blades make them better fliers, does having a custom packing tent compared to a plain colored tent up their averages? I don't think so. Last I heard Nationals was about skydiving not who has the coolest windblades or stickers.
Wow... way to spin that away from the entire conversation that has been going on in this thread. Where did anybody say that not having these things are going to hurt the competitors physical flying talents? Not one person said anything even close to that, but thanks for trying.
You can reread my posts above as to how this can hurt competitors and possibly keep them from competing. If you think what I said is not true, then maybe you'd like to be the representative from spaceland to come on here and outline specifically what is and what isn't allowed. For example, if I am a competitor with a sponsor that funded me for nationals with the intent (and possibly a written contract) that I was going to at least have their logo on my team packing tent, then tell me what I am supposed to do in this situation where my sponsor says, "oh, you can't show our logo like we agreed, so I would like all of my money back that I put in towards your training and I am not funding anything further for the actual competition itself." We can get into a side debate on weather that sponsor is being a little harsh,but it doesn't quite matter because this situation is very possible since the sponsor has this right to fund or not fund or to sponsor and not sponsor if their athlete can not wear or use their logo as outlined in their agreement.
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)
dqpacker 7
I did not get off topic. He said it gives competitors a disadvantage to not be able to put up there sponsors tent or wind blade (which is what we have been talking about). My point was that not having your tent or windblades will not effect the competition, which is what Nationals is all about, Competing.
See all you haters later.
See all you haters later.
DSE 5
Quote
FYI
Omniskore has never been in the stream of capturing or recording videos directly from photographers. That part of the process has always been with the host. I've worked both sides of that equation and know who does what.
Tamara Koyn publishes dvds of each nationals of the jumps per discipline.
.
Be that as it may, who is responsible for capture/transfer doesn't alter nor affect the amount of effort put in nor the success of the ingest process during Nationals last year. I've never been part of Nationals before, but heard from many people that the ingest of video went more smoothly in 08' than ever before.
That goes without mentioning the videos assembled for the winning teams, video edited and uploaded to national broadcasters, and other special requests by USPA. All without expectation of remuneration or compensation. A "thank you" goes a long way.
A tremendous amount of volunteer effort occurs at competitions, and to a great degree it seems that volunteerism is a discouraged thing.
For some, this may be a reason to not support Nationals, even tho the practice of restricting advertising is very, very common at any sort of competitive event. It wasn't so long ago that an event occurred that Apple sponsored where only Apple computers were allowed in the main area where cameras were set up, and a lot of people complained because they were PC users (pre-bootcamp days) The outcome of that event was that the next year, Apple was not asked back as a sponsor.
I fail to see how this is limiting competitors.
QuoteHow are the competitors at a disadvantage? Do wind blades make them better fliers, does having a custom packing tent compared to a plain colored tent up their averages? I don't think so. Last I heard Nationals was about skydiving not who has the coolest windblades or stickers.
Bringing a team to Nationals is not cheap. The return you can expect on your investment when you send yourself to Nationals is having a good time, and developing yourself as a skydiver. Both of which are great things, neither of which pays the bills. As such, many jumpers rely on sponsorship to offset some of the costs, making it within their budgets to train, travel and compete.
When you limit their ability to attract sponsorship, you limit their ability to train, travel and compete.
Would you agree that a jumper with 50 team jumps is at a disadvantage to the jumper with 100 team jumps? That's what happens when the DZO pulls your team rate, you end up with fewer jumps, and that takes points off the board.
So if you spend your money on training, and can't afford the travel or lodging, you're not there - you're not scoring points.
Of course if you train and travel, but cannot afford the resistration or competition jumps, again, it's zeros across the board.
You have to remember that nobody competing at Nationals is a paid athlete. They are all digging into their own pockets in one way or another to be there. Getting a few sponsorship dollars can often make the difference between going, or just reading about it in the magazine.
And really, most jumpers going to Nationals are spending 100% of they can to be there. If they can afford $3000 to train, travel and compete, and they get a deal from the DZ that saves them $500 on training jumps, they're not going to reduce their investment by $500, they'll just crank out another $500 worth of jumps.
It's a shitty thing to do, limiting what little offset they can get, to improve the bottom line of the DZ. The same DZ that bid for Nationals, and said we can do it for 'X', is now trying to do for 'X' minus the cost of these exclusive advertising dollars. You bid for it, you got what you wanted, now deal with what you have.
QuoteRiggerPaul basically stated that in one of his posts:
QuoteIf Spaceland is trying to make a profit from it, I don't think that's a good thing. If Spaceland excludes a competitor in the name of even breaking even, I don't think they should have that right.
So he doesn't want a DZ to take steps to break even or make a profit while holding nationals.
Competitors shouldn't be excluded, but a DZ should be able to try to at least break even. Then again, SD Arizona is excluding a complete competition from nationals since they don't want to spend the money to build a competition pond. Excluding competitors to save money...
I already modified my statement in another post, but since the issue of what I said came up again, I want to be clear.
Of course it is great if a host dz can break even, and even better if it can make a profit.
But excluding one competitor in the process to achieve that is defeating the purpose of the USPA Nationals.
The Nationals are supposed to be a place where any member can have the opportunity to show us their stuff.
If the host dz has to make deals that might jeopardize the ability of a competitor to participate, I have a problem with that.
In the original quote, I meant for both statements to be tied to the problem of competitor exclusion.
I know, that's not what I said, and I got called on it, as I should have been.
So I want to be clearer now. The problem I have is excluding any competitor in the name of profitability.
In my mind, the competitors have top priority. All other concerns are secondary. If the competitors need the sponsorships to be able to be there, then jeopardizing the competitors' sponsorships, either now or next year, is a bad thing.
If a dz can't agree to that, we should have known during the dz selection process, since it might have affected the selection.
LyraM45 0
QuoteQuoteHow are the competitors at a disadvantage? Do wind blades make them better fliers, does having a custom packing tent compared to a plain colored tent up their averages? I don't think so. Last I heard Nationals was about skydiving not who has the coolest windblades or stickers.
Bringing a team to Nationals is not cheap. The return you can expect on your investment when you send yourself to Nationals is having a good time, and developing yourself as a skydiver. Both of which are great things, neither of which pays the bills. As such, many jumpers rely on sponsorship to offset some of the costs, making it within their budgets to train, travel and compete.
When you limit their ability to attract sponsorship, you limit their ability to train, travel and compete.
Would you agree that a jumper with 50 team jumps is at a disadvantage to the jumper with 100 team jumps? That's what happens when the DZO pulls your team rate, you end up with fewer jumps, and that takes points off the board.
So if you spend your money on training, and can't afford the travel or lodging, you're not there - you're not scoring points.
Of course if you train and travel, but cannot afford the resistration or competition jumps, again, it's zeros across the board.
You have to remember that nobody competing at Nationals is a paid athlete. They are all digging into their own pockets in one way or another to be there. Getting a few sponsorship dollars can often make the difference between going, or just reading about it in the magazine.
And really, most jumpers going to Nationals are spending 100% of they can to be there. If they can afford $3000 to train, travel and compete, and they get a deal from the DZ that saves them $500 on training jumps, they're not going to reduce their investment by $500, they'll just crank out another $500 worth of jumps.
It's a shitty thing to do, limiting what little offset they can get, to improve the bottom line of the DZ. The same DZ that bid for Nationals, and said we can do it for 'X', is now trying to do for 'X' minus the cost of these exclusive advertising dollars. You bid for it, you got what you wanted, now deal with what you have.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! VERY well said. Everything I have been trying to put together into words but I feel like it hasn't come across as clear as your post. This is exactly what I am getting at. That said, I feel like a very valid point is out there.
The BOD met today on the issue and is trying to figure out what to do. Hopefully they can get involved and make just like every other nationals competition has been in the past and everybody can just come, have friendly competition and a kick ass experience.
For people who have not called your RD yet, please do it tomorrow and voice your opinion one way or other other. Let them bring it to the table if this is being talked about right now.
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)
billvon 2,921
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>I fail to see how this is limiting competitors.
"Sorry, dude, we can't sponsor you any more; we can't afford to be one of the official sponsors."
Of course, if you can afford to compete at a high level without sponsorship, or are good enough to get one of the big names to sponsor you, good for you.
"Sorry, dude, we can't sponsor you any more; we can't afford to be one of the official sponsors."
Of course, if you can afford to compete at a high level without sponsorship, or are good enough to get one of the big names to sponsor you, good for you.
jumper03 0
Quote+1
The company's that pay to be and advertise there deserve to get the most bang for there buck! I see nothing wrong with the way they set it up. If the other company's dont like it then maybe they should pay to be there
So the companies that paid for team travel, helped put them up, helped pay for training etc. BUT didn't pay the DZ haven't paid to be there? Or deserve some recognition and advertising? Seems like a DZ money grab to me - plain and simple. But then again, I am plain and simple so what do I know.
Scars remind us that the past is real
Point of clarification: The Golden Knights are not sponsored by the Army, they ARE the Army. They are an Army unit just like the Army Marksmanship Unit, just like the 126th field mess kit battalion, etc.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Nomad 0
(disclaimer i haven't read all 5 pages and i posted this on blue skies mag thread as well)
It's disheartening to read something like this. I work in PR, Marketing and Sponsorship development for main stream companies. In their eyes USPA national is the 'high profile' event of the year for skydiving, World level is icing on the cake. At a time in our sport when main stream sponsors are opening up to the idea of supporting our professional athletes USPA should be working to expand and promote this interest, not squish it. Look at the interest and projects just over the summer, Revolution tea, Verizon's skydiver themed launch in San Fran, RockBand's official launch video to name just a few. These are major players with major dollars who should be encouraged to put money into our sport.
Not to mention skydiving specific vendors. Say you have a decent suit, not even thinking of a new one, but after nationals you buy a new suit because you spoke with a vendor. You are adding money to our 'skydiving economy' growing that company and allowing them to slowing expand and produce better products at a lower cost. By sponsoring teams you are growing the competition culture and in exchange growing your company. Any company who sponsors anyone works with this mentality.
I understand official vendors having booth space and certain exclusive rights. But to shut out logos on personal space and athlete promotion is unheard of in professional sports. Ever notice how in say skateboarding, at Rockstar sponsored events when a Monster riders is out you see his signs and banners? His trailers have logos? We are shutting out growth and progress of all for the pockets of a few.
It's disheartening to read something like this. I work in PR, Marketing and Sponsorship development for main stream companies. In their eyes USPA national is the 'high profile' event of the year for skydiving, World level is icing on the cake. At a time in our sport when main stream sponsors are opening up to the idea of supporting our professional athletes USPA should be working to expand and promote this interest, not squish it. Look at the interest and projects just over the summer, Revolution tea, Verizon's skydiver themed launch in San Fran, RockBand's official launch video to name just a few. These are major players with major dollars who should be encouraged to put money into our sport.
Not to mention skydiving specific vendors. Say you have a decent suit, not even thinking of a new one, but after nationals you buy a new suit because you spoke with a vendor. You are adding money to our 'skydiving economy' growing that company and allowing them to slowing expand and produce better products at a lower cost. By sponsoring teams you are growing the competition culture and in exchange growing your company. Any company who sponsors anyone works with this mentality.
I understand official vendors having booth space and certain exclusive rights. But to shut out logos on personal space and athlete promotion is unheard of in professional sports. Ever notice how in say skateboarding, at Rockstar sponsored events when a Monster riders is out you see his signs and banners? His trailers have logos? We are shutting out growth and progress of all for the pockets of a few.
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all who wander are lost.
Remster 30
QuotePoint of clarification: The Golden Knights are not sponsored by the Army, they ARE the Army. They are an Army unit just like the Army Marksmanship Unit, just like the 126th field mess kit battalion, etc.
And the PD swoop team is PD. They are employed by them. Just like the sewers, just like the phone sales rep.
See, its not that simple ;-)
Remster
And you would be who? Seeing how you just register today, have nothing in your profile and this is your only post why should we give your post any credence?
Sparky
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