Is 4-way FS mis-named?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I spent most of last week at Nationals jumping as outside center on an intermediate 4-way FS team. As I watched all the teams work, it became VERY clear to me that this event ISN'T 4 way... It really is 5-way.

The importance of the camera flyer only becomes obvious when there is a camera bust. Flying camera for FS (RW) sounds simple... but it isn't. It seemed that struggling with camera busts was a common issue in the intermediate class.

I don't mean this as criticism of camera flyers. My point is that often they don't get the credit due them.

Thanks to all the camera flyers who make it look easy! Thanks also, to those camera flyers working hard to learn to make it look easy... we love you too!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[billvon 2,394]

Yes and no. There's no question that the cameraman is an important part of any team, but they're fairly 'fungible' - you can replace a good 4-way cameraflyer with a good 4-way cameraflyer with minimal retraining for the team. That's not as true if you have to replace an inside center.

A few teams refer to themselves as "5 way teams" so it is something that's recognized.

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

Thanks to all the camera flyers who make it look easy! Thanks also, to those camera flyers working hard to learn to make it look easy... we love you too!

Also, try flying camera for a new team that has not trained together and is getting into it vs flying for a team that has a seasoned competitor or two and "several" training jumps together.

One falls mainly straight down while the other well....keeps the camera guy entertained.

/love my team and hope they keep going this coming year and not trade me off

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Thanks...i am a bit surprised what some of the judges are willing to judge. I have known and flown against teams that have their camera flyer fly farther away to make the video harder to judge.

The same goes for the really good tandem video fliers. A really good video product is not as easy as it looks. I am surprised that some DZs put out the product that they do.

[Reginald 0]

Hmm, let's look at a few team names:

Deguello 17
Deguello 9

I think these guys get it.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[piisfish 135]

it's still a 4-8-16 way formation.
The videoman is still part of the team

maybe you should call it a 4way formation 5 people team

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[rehmwa 2]

Our cameraman was a clear team member and we referred to ourselves as a 5 way team.

I think if the camera man pays his own way like the others (both money and effort), then he's a full fledged member. That means we work on his training just as hard as the 'flyers' (i.e., training is also about the camera - improving/learning and contributing to video quality, working and planning on different exits if he needs to learn how to transition, for example, from a peel type to a lead exit, etc - , his issues are the team issues, he participates in the debriefs with input both ways, etc). In that case, he earned that medal or status just like the other 4.


If he's a hired pro, sure, he's just as important for the score - but it's not really his team or his medal....(I know this will get some flack...)

so is the aircraft's pilot - but I don't see anyone calling it a 6-way team either - why do people hate the pilot so much???



(that said, a good hired-gun camera guy does a ton and can seriously earn his pay. That's a different story than is the team a 4-way or a "5-way")



I really see this becoming more and more important in VRW - the camera slot/video angles/etc is even more critical and cameraguys really should consider VRW teams as their training that they pay equal time to, rather than selling a service to 4 other guys....

this does stir up some video guys, but it's just an opinion

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Quote

Our cameraman was a clear team member and we referred to ourselves as a 5 way team.

I think if the camera man pays his own way like the others (both money and effort

Pays his own way???? You must mean like the $2,000 camera set-up on his head, right?? That can be taken out with one kick on any given exit.

I absolutely love flying camera with my team but if I had to pay for my slots at competitions, I might not have gotten into team flying. It may not have been something I could’ve afforded to do. Don’t get me wrong, I know what it costs my team members to pay for my slots during competition. That’s why I never charge them for pack jobs. But, I can tell you that it has NOT paid for my investment.

You guys were blessed with (Pinky) a great camera flyer for years. He was a true competitor. I don't know what financial arrangement you had, but I do know that he made a lot of practice jumps with you guys.

I’m hoping your point is that there’re some camera flyers that do it just for the money (we’re getting rich??). Because I know of many that really take it seriously. In fact, I know of one that did a couple “free” practice jumps with you guys just to improve his camera flying skills. And, by the way, you guys made his job way to easy. He found out that the “novice” teams were a better method of learning camera flying.

Teams need to bring a variety of skill sets to the table. In competition skydiving, camera flying is as important a skill set as is any other. Inside Center will have a different skill set then the Tail or the Point, etc. A good camera flyer can add a lot of points to a team’s score by not having any camera busts. Anyway, I think teams which include video as a requirement for competition should consider the camera flyer as a fully vested team member. If you don’t, you may be missing out on a very important part of the competition… the friendship and respect for ones team mates!!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[DanG 1]

I agree on all your points, except the part about monetary investment. I think rehmwa's point (if I may be so bold as to presume) was that there is a disconnect between considering the cameraman a co-equal team member, and paying for his training jumps. If a cameraman wants to be considered part of the team, why doesn't he pay his way like everyone else? The investment in the camera equipment pales in comparison to the investment in training dollars for any semi-serious team.

BTW, I've been both a 4way player and 4way cameraman.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

As I said - it does stir up some video guys...

an argument that the cameraman invests more money isn't a clean argument - $2000 for a camera isn't more than a training 4 will pay (one example here) each for tunnel trips and time in a season - everybody pays for the benefit - but you said it yourself, if they didn't cover your slot, you wouldn't have competed - that's a LOT different commitment from the other 4 'teammates' isn't it? this is certainly not related to how much fun you had and how good of friends you were - you certainly were and they valued you

one thing I would concede is that it takes a lot less time for a cameraman to get proficient enough to provide judgable video - so if that's the goal and camguy is not further benefitting from improving their skills, then at that point they are a hired gun

You noted how we 'let' new camera guys train with us and you implied it was kinda insincere - all of those videos were requested/offered by the camera guy, they sought us out - most of that video was useless for refining our 4-way skills but we were happy to jump with a friend anyway - but we've never approached someone and requested a free vid jump


we had a pretty easy process for new cameraguys that approached us - as long as we thought they weren't totally unsafe, they could go along.....

they pay their own way until they achieve reasonably judgable video - we help with the debriefs and input on what they can do based on other really good video guys like Pink and Nick - this is their training, not ours

we'll cover their slot once they give us video that is not only judgable, but is good enough (read close enough and clear enough) that we can get decent training input to let us also get better

slot + pack? - he's already there skillwise and is the hired gun, for us, then the video is all about us and he's not really learning anything new for his own part - some really good vids are happy with just slot for the experience and the learning they find for themselves - others aren't



My favorite example was going through this with (let's call him "Pete D the freefly guy with a camera" as a random name) - he does one jump with us on his dime, the video is not judgable, but it's in frame and a long ways away and he still has that fisheye from FF - we walk it with him. He does a second video and lands on us a couple times. Most of the video is a bit better - judgable (for local standards) but not much use for practice/feedback for us, only him.

before the 3rd jump he walks up and asks for jump + $15 - we thanked him and continued without

just a story

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

you touched on my points pretty well

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[MikeJD 0]

The only time I'd expect a camera flyer to pay for his or her slot would be if s/he was a newbie and effectively being done a favour by having something to film. Other than that, no way - any coaching/ jumping/ registration fees are covered by the rest of the team.

I think there are several good reasons for this (forgive the assumption of male gender from here on
- Although your camera flyer is part of the team, he's also providing a unique service in the same way that, say, the pilot of the plane does. And you don't expect the pilot to contribute to your jump costs for the privilege of flying you to altitude.

- Your camera flyer isn't benefiting from coaching in the same way as everyone else (unless your coach is also a camera expert). In fact, while the rest of the team are busy learning on the ground, he's probably bored out of his mind and waiting to get back in the air.

- Jump tickets for regularly training teams are usually discounted, often by the cost of one slot (at least in 8-way FS). Whether it's the camera slot that you're getting free is of course arguable, but if you look at it that way then nobody's out of pocket.

[brettski74 0]

Quote

The only time I'd expect a camera flyer to pay for his or her slot would be if s/he was a newbie

Defining what is a newbie and when they are no longer a newbie can be tricky. Is a guy with 1000 jumps and been wearing a camera on his head for the past 4 years a newbie or is he experienced? I'd say that if those jumps were all freefly zoo dives with his mates, then while he may have adequate flying skills and control over the camera, he's still a newbie when it comes to 4-way video, but explaining that to a guy with 1000 jumps can be tough. In the end, we reached a compromise, but at out first real competition, there were still a couple of camera busts and by that time he had close to 100 training jumps with us, so it's not as easy as people think.

Quote

Your camera flyer isn't benefiting from coaching in the same way as everyone else (unless your coach is also a camera expert). In fact, while the rest of the team are busy learning on the ground, he's probably bored out of his mind and waiting to get back in the air.

I don't entirely agree with that. If you're one of the better known videographers from one of the larger dropzones, for sure, however, there are a lot of people who don't fit into this category. Take the camera guy from my four-way team as an example. When he started flying camera for us, he was a reasonable freeflyer with about 1000 jumps to his name. He'd been flying casual camera on freefly jumps for a while, but hadn't really done any "serious" camera flying. After a little over a year with us and probably around 120 jumps with us, he started flying tandem video at our dropzone. On a good weekend, he can make $300-400 or more. Would he have been able to fly tandem video without having jumped with us? Maybe, but I'm sure that the four-way experience has made him a better videographer than he would have been otherwise. He's also started to play around more on bigway belly jumps, since his 4-way camera experience has helped refresh his belly skills. I don't have a problem with any of this. He's made sure that he's always available for team commitments and we paid his slot after the first 5 jumps as everyone agreed up front. He was also great at helping with administrivia between jumps at training camps and competitions. To say that he did not get any training benefit when we were paying his slot, however, is just not true.

Quote

Jump tickets for regularly training teams are usually discounted, often by the cost of one slot (at least in 8-way FS). Whether it's the camera slot that you're getting free is of course arguable, but if you look at it that way then nobody's out of pocket.

This is true in some locations, but of all the 4-way team jumps I've done, only 3 of them ever got a free camera slot. The place where we normally train gives us a few dollars off the camera slot, but that's about it. We're still splitting 95% of a full slot between the 4 team members.

[champu 1]

You haven't watched the instructional video on cameraguys, have you?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Quote

You haven't watched the instructional video on cameraguys, have you?

Priceless!!!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I love it.