Thoughts on the Nationals...

[airtwardo 6]

~On Competition:

Maybe some thought needs to be given to restructuring the whole national competition thing altogether.

I mean...who/what IS the nationals for?

I kinda see it as old school & new age banging heads in a way that does no one any good.

Years ago, a lot of grumblings were going on because there was really only one 'sponsored' team...The Golden Knights.

Everyone took it for granted that the competition was for 2nd place in any event that the Knights were competing in.

Teams like Mirror Image came along and showed us the Army WAS beatable...but it took similar dedication and financing to do it.

The percentage of participants within our community that can devote that type of personal commitment to 'professional' competition is quite small.

Should there be different classes for competition in regard to 'sponsorship'?

I know I'm a bit weird, but I was really pulling for a few of the teams this year that showed up with non-matching gear and were making a go of national competition on their OWN dime.

To me THAT'S the spirit of competition in our sport, a group of guys from cornfield USA that have been working together to better their skills, and god forbid may actually have a shot at getting a medal.

Of course I love watching the 'performance' of teams like Arsenal and Airspeed...it shows us all what IS possible and sets the bar, but what about the skydivers that can't make 500 jumps together as a team in preparation for the nationals?

Maybe, like the Olympics 'use' to be...a separate competition for 'non-professional' skydiving athletes would be a possibility.


~Sponsorship:

In my book, being paid for something qualifies one as a professional. In that definition, I've been a professional skydiver for 30 some years in the realm of demonstration jumping...yes that 'in part' means sponsorships.

When I have a sponsor, be it for a certain event or an entire season, I make it clear to them that I will work WITH them, not FOR them to promote a product or service...That I have final say in regard to what I can and can not do.

Often times what I can do is show them that an additional expenditure at an event could net them considerable more return than the $ spent on what I alone can do...I've had sponsors both agree & disagree with me, but none ever 'pulled' their sponsorship.

Having never been sponsored for an athletic competition like the USPA Nationals, maybe I'm just not understanding what kind of 'deal with the devil' skydivers are making in getting someone to finance their involvement.

My wife on the other hand was once an accomplished air-racer with several high dollar sponsors.

Sponsors that were in essence handing over a considerable sum of money for product name exposure...the expectations for this money was pretty much spelled out in a contract that was discussed at length and fully agreed upon by both parties...is the skydiving sponsorship thing different than that?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[MarkM 0]

So instead of sponsors, we'd have a category where people would have to be rich to compete?

[billvon 2,400]

>So instead of sponsors, we'd have a category where people would have
>to be rich to compete?

Right now there are three classes for 4-way that anyone can enter. I think what twardo is suggesting is a class for sponsored jumpers. Either a fourth class or a replacement of one of the current classes.

[Remster 24]

Where do you draw the line between sponsored and not?

An easy one may be "full time skydiver" but what if the person does rigging on the side? Or has a job as a bartender?

And what happens to the teams who have great deals from their DZ's on jump tickets? They're sponsored, right?

Remster

[airtwardo 6]

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>So instead of sponsors, we'd have a category where people would have
>to be rich to compete?

Right now there are three classes for 4-way that anyone can enter. I think what twardo is suggesting is a class for sponsored jumpers. Either a fourth class or a replacement of one of the current classes.

Exactly...a 'Professional' class for lack of a better term.

There is nothing wrong with being a world class!

But lets consider a more level playing field for those grass roots members of our sport that may aspire to be classified that eventually...

...however, currently would like to participate in a national venue in which they may actually have a chance of winning.

I don't know what the answer is, I'm just looking for ideas and input from peers on how we can bring this thing into the 21st century and make it something better than it is, something that may benefit all the participants equally, as well as the sport in general.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 3]

I don't think there's any real bullshit that can be complained about in the Open class. The name says it all; open. What that has always meant was get the money however you can get it and compete to be the very best you can; with a full on sponsorship like the GKs or a very minimal sponsorship like Perry Fury.

The issue I've always had with Nationals are the other two classes; Intermediate and Advanced.

What I've never liked about them is the idea that you can have gold medal winners from a much higher bracket be a player coach on these teams which eliminates at least a good chunk of issues that may be brought by a person that really should be in that bracket.

It got really bad a few years back when a certain rich guy decided have his Advanced team comprised of himself (which was appropriate) and all the other members were really world class open skydivers. He essentially was buying an Advanced class gold medal. I didn't like that then and I still don't like the idea. If folks want to do that, then they should step up into the Open class. We had a very wealthy individual a few years back do that too and it turned out well for them. Some people claimed the team bought the medal but since it was in Open, I didn't see anything wrong with that at all.

There needs to be a way to separate Open from Advanced and Intermediate in such a way that there really is a clear distinction. I proposed a way to do this years ago, but it would require some sports organization actually be responsible for keeping track of individuals and assigning them to their proper brackets. Other sports do it, but not the USPA. I just don't think the USPA has the will to do that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ghost47 18]

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Exactly...a 'Professional' class for lack of a better term.

There is nothing wrong with being a world class!

But lets consider a more level playing field for those grass roots members of our sport that may aspire to be classified that eventually...

...however, currently would like to participate in a national venue in which they may actually have a chance of winning.

I don't know that this would work.

Say you have a professional class for sponsored folk. Then wouldn't some who are in the Open class complain about those rich skydivers who can afford to do two hours of tunnel per month? It's not fair to pit them against those who can barely scrape together enough money to make 10 jumps a month. There should be an income-based class. Then others may grumble that, well, they come from the northeast, and they can't compete with those SoCalers who can jump year-round. Etc.

Besides, there are already two classes that do the same jumps, no? Open and Advanced. If a team feels like they'll get crushed in Open and want a chance at winning, they can jump in Advanced. (Of course then the current Advanced class might get discouraged.)

I think, in the end, you're never going to have a level playing field. There will always be another team with better resources, better equipment, better weather, or what have you. So, in the end, you hunker down, do the best you can, and be glad that you got to skydive at Nationals.

Or so go my thoughts.

[beowulf 1]

I wouldn't say it's just the 'will' to do it but also the money. How much would it cost in hours to register and keep track of competitors?

[airtwardo 6]

What in general are/were your ideas in regard the distinction between the classes?



I can see there would be problems doing that, but the idea is not only worthy of discussion but probably will become necessary at some point...fairness is essential in moving the whole thing forward.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 3]

It requires a skydiving database.

Each member is kept track of in the various local, regional and national competitions. Meet directors already keep lists of team members on entry sheets so there's really no additional labor there. The additional labor comes after the meet where some individual would have to upload the results to a national database. Points are kept for rounds and winners.

I'd allow any competitor to move up a bracket at his own discretion, but they'd be forced to move up once they break a certain threshold.

Teams could be coached by anyone, but only appropriate level individuals would be allowed to compete in Advanced or Intermediate classes.

I really don't see it being that big of a deal. 99% of the effort would be in setting up the database programming, but data entry would be distributed among the meet directors / judges so it wouldn't be too much of a burden on any one individual.

Open - anybody and anything goes as far as sponsorship.

Advanced - open to anybody that has not been on a team whose previous average was greater than the threshold percentage of the previous years Open class score. Let's say we set that at 66% as an example. If the previous year's Open class average for the Nationals meet was 24, then going into this year's Nationals, no member of an Advanced class team would have an average above 16. We could quibble about the threshold percentage, but the idea is the same.

Intermediate, same sort of deal only using the previous year's Nationals Advanced score.

Additionally, this really would give the classes a meaning so that four first year competitors aren't jumping against two open class gold medalists, a silver medalist and a rich guy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[beowulf 1]

I think it's a lot more work then you are making out to be.

It's not an overly complicated application to build but there is a significant amount of time involved.

[quade 3]

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I think it's a lot more work then you are making out to be.

It's not an overly complicated application to build but there is a significant amount of time involved.

Well, let's just say that a real sports organization would do it.

Real sports organizations kept track of their competitors.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airtwardo 6]

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I think it's a lot more work then you are making out to be.

It's not an overly complicated application to build but there is a significant amount of time involved.

Well, let's just say that a real sports organization would do it.

Real sports organizations kept track of their competitors.

I agree...and furthermore, I think we may be really missing the boat by not doing something like that.

A 'real' competitive environment just might be marketable in the real world on some level.

Imagine actual coverage and exposure!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kallend 1,623]

Take a 10-way team to nationals. Only one class, and weekend warriors still have a chance to medal and stand on the podium with Airspeed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airtwardo 6]

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Take a 10-way team to nationals. Only one class, and weekend warriors still have a chance to medal and stand on the podium with Airspeed.

Yeah...like I could find 9 people that would jump with me!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[LyraM45 0]

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>So instead of sponsors, we'd have a category where people would have
>to be rich to compete?

Right now there are three classes for 4-way that anyone can enter. I think what twardo is suggesting is a class for sponsored jumpers. Either a fourth class or a replacement of one of the current classes.

Exactly...a 'Professional' class for lack of a better term.

There is nothing wrong with being a world class!

But lets consider a more level playing field for those grass roots members of our sport that may aspire to be classified that eventually...

...however, currently would like to participate in a national venue in which they may actually have a chance of winning.

I don't know what the answer is, I'm just looking for ideas and input from peers on how we can bring this thing into the 21st century and make it something better than it is, something that may benefit all the participants equally, as well as the sport in general.

We had similar problems in collegiates. I know in 2006 we all sat down and seriously asked the USPA reps there what they could do about the military students, who if we'd like to relate it to this situation you are outlining in your original OP, are sponsored for all intensive purposes. It's like the civillian kids go there with their tattered gear, a few jumps, and no tunnel time and it's whoever can come in first behind any military students is considered the winner by the civilian students. It's tough to go to a comp like that and know you are already beat by kids that have all the resources at their fingertips and are training on your tax dollars.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[airtwardo 6]

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Quote

Quote

>So instead of sponsors, we'd have a category where people would have
>to be rich to compete?

Right now there are three classes for 4-way that anyone can enter. I think what twardo is suggesting is a class for sponsored jumpers. Either a fourth class or a replacement of one of the current classes.

Exactly...a 'Professional' class for lack of a better term.

There is nothing wrong with being a world class!

But lets consider a more level playing field for those grass roots members of our sport that may aspire to be classified that eventually...

...however, currently would like to participate in a national venue in which they may actually have a chance of winning.

I don't know what the answer is, I'm just looking for ideas and input from peers on how we can bring this thing into the 21st century and make it something better than it is, something that may benefit all the participants equally, as well as the sport in general.

We had similar problems in collegiates. I know in 2006 we all sat down and seriously asked the USPA reps there what they could do about the military students, who if we'd like to relate it to this situation you are outlining in your original OP, are sponsored for all intensive purposes. It's like the civillian kids go there with their tattered gear, a few jumps, and no tunnel time and it's whoever can come in first behind any military students is considered the winner by the civilian students. It's tough to go to a comp like that and know you are already beat by kids that have all the resources at their fingertips and are training on your tax dollars.

Yeah it was that way 30 years ago when I went to the collegiate nationals...could be worse though, could have the coach of an academy team on the rules committee...oh wait!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jumpwally 0]

It works in baseball no ? A AA AAA and the big show,,,base it on jump numbers or something.....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[airtwardo 6]

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It works in baseball no ? A AA AAA and the big show,,,base it on jump numbers or something.....

Didn't work in football though, NFL, USFL...


I kinda like Quades idea, might take some effort and yes there is a possibility to still 'cheat'...but a step in the right direction.

If they can do it in bowling why can't WE?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 3]

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Didn't work in football though, NFL, USFL...

Actually, it sort of does; High School, College, Pro.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[padu 0]

I beg to claim a different point of view. The current USPA regulations already limit the number of "experienced" skydivers (those who've already competed in open before) to 1/4th the size of the team.

So you can only have one player-coach in a 4-way team or 2 in 8-way and so on.

I see nothing wrong with that.

Player-coach is an awesome tool for inexperienced guys to learn faster. Not only because at least one guy in the team is a solid reference point, but also because the coach now has a lot more feedback. He can even give live feedback with one way radio during the skydive.

Una volta che avrete imparato a Volare, camminerete sulla terra guardando il cielo perchè è là che siete stati ed è là che vorrete tornare.

[Dazzle 0]

What point are you trying to get here? Advanced class winners won with a 13.1 average. We did that in the UK as an entirely self funded team. Nothing special that any weekend team in the US could do.

Then you have the open class for all the big boys to go play in. Is there anyone in open that is complaining that they need another class to keep them away from the sponsored teams?

[quade 3]

True;

SCM 5-1.3 E

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No team in the Advanced or Intermediate 4-Way
Formation Skydiving classes may be composed of
more than one quarter of members who have won a
gold medal in that class at the five previous U.S.
National Skydiving Championships or won a medal
in a higher class at the five previous U.S. National
Skydiving Championships or in the same event at an
FAI First Category Event; the videographer shall not
be considered when applying this rule.

That said, it's still possible to stack the deck with competitors that really don't belong in those lower classes.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airtwardo 6]

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Didn't work in football though, NFL, USFL...

Actually, it sort of does; High School, College, Pro.

Open, Advanced, Intermediate, Collegiate and Canadian?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billeisele 122]

We had similar problems in collegiates. I know in 2006 we all sat down and seriously asked the USPA reps there what they could do about the military students, who if we'd like to relate it to this situation you are outlining in your original OP, are sponsored for all intensive purposes. It's like the civillian kids go there with their tattered gear, a few jumps, and no tunnel time and it's whoever can come in first behind any military students is considered the winner by the civilian students. It's tough to go to a comp like that and know you are already beat by kids that have all the resources at their fingertips and are training on your tax dollars.