Tandem Master responsible for injury on landing or passenger?

[AJC1 0]

If a passenger is injured on landing of a tandem jump, who is responsible? Is it the passenger's fault for putting their feet down or is it the tandem master who should accept responsibility? How often does this happen?

Under Parachute Assoc of South Africa Tandem Operations - Requirements for Tandem Personnel - (Tandem Master or Tandem Evaluator, as person in sole control of a passenger and Tandem parachute equipment, may be referred to as a Tandem Instructor)

[dragon2 0]

Who are you and why do you want to know?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[airtwardo 6]

Read the waiver.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[AJC1 0]

Well, I think its a fair question? Only 2 possible answers, I have posed the questions to the people who I think would be experts.

[dragon2 0]

We "experts" tend not to answer lawyers in an online forum

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[AJC1 0]

Ha ha, not a lawyer, but I do skydive. Things like this happen and it tarnishes the sport I love so how is it avoided?

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Ha ha, not a lawyer, but I do skydive. Things like this happen and it tarnishes the sport I love so how is it avoided?

By not asling questions you 'should' already know the answer to.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[AJC1 0]

Ok cool, so no responsibility taken by anyone, no reprimanding, if the TM doesn't get hurt, then everything is good. Thats whats happening on the DZ I visited anyway... Not saying it is at all DZ's.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Why in the hell would the TI be responsible for a passenger putting their feet down? That is a stupid question.

[riggerrob 558]

Reluctant to answer a troll ... er lawyer ...

But I have had three tandem students break legs on landing. Two - out of the three- admitted that they did something weird with their legs just before touch down. The last one even apoligized to me for doing something wrong.

Caveat: if you are a lawyer and you want to quote me on court, have at it! But remember that you owe me a one thousand dollar "expert witness" fee every time you quote me in court.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Ok cool, so no responsibility taken by anyone, no reprimanding, if the TM doesn't get hurt, then everything is good. Thats whats happening on the DZ I visited anyway... Not saying it is at all DZ's.

I'll play, Mr. 'joined yesterday' and the only post made is one regarding injury liability...

What dropzone did you visit that this happened at, and when?

You say you're a skydiver, don't you have any Tandem I's you can ask at your home dropzone...which was where again?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Ha ha, not a lawyer, but I do skydive. Things like this happen and it tarnishes the sport I love so how is it avoided?

Well, I am a lawyer, and I just want to say that it's commendable you don't have an agenda here. Otherwise you'd be, you know, tarnished.

[godziller 0]

Quote

If a passenger is injured on landing of a tandem jump, who is responsible? Is it the passenger's fault for putting their feet down or is it the tandem master who should accept responsibility? How often does this happen?

Under Parachute Assoc of South Africa Tandem Operations - Requirements for Tandem Personnel - (Tandem Master or Tandem Evaluator, as person in sole control of a passenger and Tandem parachute equipment, may be referred to as a Tandem Instructor)

I always hate to have to spell this out..., but let me tell you the 2 things I know for sure.

1. you don't have to have a degree from Harvard to know that if you lite something on fire and breath the smoke on purpose, it might be bad for you lungs.

2. If you get out of a flying aircraft you might break a leg or die.


Oh yeah and, FUCK OFF

[captain1976 0]

As you can see anonymous posters are not too popular here. Some feel they have something to hide.

But tandem jumpers don't always listen. May be the excitement or thrill, but I've seen broken bones from both tandem masters and their riders, regardless of where the feet are.

The last one I saw was a simple slide on the morning dew followed by a dry spot that left the student with a broken leg and the tandem master with a broken arm trying to break the fall. Shit happens

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[Jkralovec 0]

Here is a better question. If the TI is injured because the student didn't follow instructions causing the TI to break his ankle, is the student responsible?

[AJC1 0]

Finally, thank you! I appreciate your answer... That was really easy. Didn't realise that asking a simple question would result in such a defence. Thanks again!

[JohnMitchell 14]

Do you really live under a bridge?

[Jkralovec 0]

Quote

Here is a better question. If the TI is injured because the student didn't follow instructions causing the TI to break his ankle, is the student responsible?

My point is...Don't ask questions that could possibly hurt our sport...asshole

[wmw999 2,121]

Quote

Don't ask questions that could possibly hurt our sport

I would disagree with that. How else to learn if not by asking?

However, those questions are usually best asked in person, and not on a public forum where the answers stick around and are open to quoting and misinterpretation.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mjosparky 3]

As the man said, who are you and what is your purpose in asking. If you want information be willing to give some.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tombuch 0]

Gosh, what negativity. The original poster may be a lawyer, but so what? The question is a good one that we often hash out on the DZ, and in my opinion it comes down to relative assignment of responsibility. One camp believes the student signs a waiver and should be completely and solely responsible for his own safety. The other camp believes the instructor has an absolute duty to protect the student from injury. And of course there are some people who slip someplace in the middle. That’s my world.

I believe the instructor has an obligation to provide thorough training and practice, and to apply his best efforts to keep the jump safe and prevent injury. That means assessing the physical abilities of the student, a complete pre-flight briefing, a proper fitting harness, assuring appropriate weather conditions, plenty of student practice lifting the legs under canopy, a stabilized approach, appropriate generation of lift on landing, and clear commands to lift the legs. Even with all that, the student can still get hurt, but if the instructor takes his time and provides adequate support the probability of injury will be reduced.

The student does need to understand that injuries can happen, even under the best of conditions, but the student isn’t an expert, and is not capable of assessing the training or providing a complete informed consent. That’s why it is so important for the instructor to follow industry standards and do everything possible to prevent injuries. I’ve found that adequate training makes a huge difference, and that spending time under canopy practicing the landing is critical. That’s all under the instructor’s control, and not under the control of the student.

Sure, I’ve had student’s that did everything right in the air and then spazed out on the landing, but even there, if the approach is well flown the instructor can often roll the student through the butt slide and minimize the probability of injury. It’s not guaranteed to work, but it’s a safe bet that an inattentive or casual instructor is far more likely to cause a student injury, and that’s just not tolerable.

So, to answer the question about who is responsible, I’d look at the training and the way the instructor conducted the jump. If the instructor made a significant effort to do everything right, he shouldn’t be held responsible, but if the instructor was slacking off, then the blame rests on his shoulders.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[feuergnom 22]

and that should be written in every TI's book!

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Gosh, what negativity.

True, enough; but speaking for myself (a lawyer who hires liability experts), he got the negativity because - notwithstanding his OP - he made it clear from his posts #s 6 and 8 (as well as the thread title) that his agenda was not simply about acquiring information with an open mind, but he was seeking expert opinions for the specific, pre-determined purpose of figuring out how to nail the instructor (and DZ). He's already made the decision that it's the instructor's fault; he's just asking us to help supply him with the club to beat the instructor with.

And I say this, incidentally, as someone who is willing to fault-find an instructor where merited.

In addition to which, I was put off by the gratuitous, and presumptuous, "tarnishes the sport" remark from someone who clearly has next to no actual knowledge about the sport.

Your thoughtful response was the correct one, Tom, but I'll betcha it's not what he came here looking to find.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Your thoughtful response was the correct one, Tom, but I'll betcha it's not what he came here looking to find.

You're right, he was obviously fishing and not looking for a thoughtful response. But this site boasts 375,000 monthly visits, and I'm betting most of those folks are looking for thoughtful responses. When I respond to a post here I try to think of everybody that will be reading the thread, and not just the original poster. I think you understand and embrace that approach. Using the original post as a 'jumping off' point makes the site more friendly, and more useful to more people. Thus, when I answer a post by a skydiver I assume a lawyer will probably read it too, and when I answer a post by a lawyer I'm betting skydivers will also be interested.

I try to remind myself that lawyers are not always the enemy. Thoughtful lawyers will take the information they find here and use it to help determine if their client has truly been wronged, or if instead that client needs to be let down gently with a dispassioned explanation of why further action is not appropriate. You obviously understand that, and your voice here is certainly helpful.

And now I'll step further into the issue and wonder (then answer) why on earth a student would think it appropriate to seek legal help for a broken leg, and what we can do to reduce those kinds of actions.

First, obliviously (I hope) is for us to run professional operations that are obviously student centered, and to build a solid reputation for following rules and acting responsibly.

Second is to have a solid waiver, drafted by a friendly lawyer, that will help the student (and the student's lawyer) understand the sharing of risk.

Third, we need to show empathy when accidents happen.

Fourth, our businesses should be covered by legal protection of our own, so that we have the resources to fight a claim against us, and so that an injured party knows we will not surrender our wallets easily. (see http://www.sportsinsurance.com/)

And fifth, we need to understand that in addition to pain and suffering that can't be prevented, when an accident happens it can cost the injured person significant money, and can take him out of the labor market for an extended period of time. Those students with quality health insurance will be less likely to seek legal help because the financial harms are more manageable. Students without medical insurance may soon reach the end of their rope, and feel they have no choice but to seek financial support wherever it can be found. At one point USPA offered a third party short term medical policy for our students, and I'm not sure if it still exists. But in any event, when people are reasonably sure their medical and financial needs will be tended to, they will be less likely to sue the drop zone or other entities, regardless of what might have caused the injury. That's my pitch for a universal form of health insurance that would provide substantial societal benefits to us all. We don't often think of the liability impact the uninsured have on our businesses and recreational avocations, but we should, and we should understand that in many ways our propensity for litigation is driven by factors well within our control as individuals, and as a society.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[pirana 0]

Quote

Thoughtful lawyers will take the information they find here and use it to help determine if their client has truly been wronged, or if instead that client needs to be let down gently with a dispassioned explanation of why further action is not appropriate.

Not my experience; but I am only one person. In my past management positions I hired a lot of people (about 40 to 50 per year) and fired a few (3 or 4 per year. My experience sitting across the table from terminated people and their lawyers is that the lawyer is aggressively trying to paint their client as the victim, regardless of the facts presented. It's what they are paid to do; it's their job. I've seen a few do it to the point of looking like idiots.

I also did some consulting work for a very large firm (they claimed to be the nation's largest) that specialized in defending product liability suits. They made no qualms about following a scorched earth policy (their exact words) in defending their clients.

My observation is that lawyering is more about 2 sides telling their stories and trying to convince the jury/judge that their's is better - often without regard to certain facts. If it were really only about discovering facts and truths, we would not need lawyers - just good investigators. Every party involved would simply be an officer of the court and be obligated to share all facts. Lawyers are there for their spin and story-telling ability.

Maybe in the relatively small sampling of cases I experienced (maybe a dozen over 15 years) I just got unlucky and ran into a string of unthoughtful lawyers.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley