I need someone to do a BOC mod..Who??

[gnatt 0]

I need someone to do a BOC mod to my vector 2. Do you guys have any suggestions? I live in the southeast?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

It is a pretty basic mod. Any Master rigger will do.

[gnatt 0]

Thanks. I'll ask a rigger at the DZ. What is a reasonable price?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

1 hr plus parts.

[2cmyzx 0]

chutingstar.com

Mike has always done me right!

[thedude325 0]

Send it in to UPT. I sent my Vector 2 in to them to get an RSL put on. Turnaround was 1.5 weeks.

[Gary73 8]

The BOC pouch is well clear of the reserve and all the harness webbing, so a lot of folks feel that a Senior rigger can do this job. It's also listed in the Parachute Rigger Handbook (on the FAA website) as only requiring a Senior license.

Be aware that some riggers will charge you for a full reserve inspect and repack as part of this job and justify it by claiming that the job can't be done with the reserve in the container, so make sure you know what the rigger has in mind. Personally I've never found it necessary to mess with the reserve when replacing or installing a BOC pouch, but maybe I'm more awesome than I thought.

Anyway, the pouches cost $15 from Para-Gear and I charge $10 to $15 for the labor on most rigs, depending on how I feel that day.

P.S. - If the pouch is in good shape, just a little stretched out, it can be tightened by just unstitching the bottom seam, rotating that half a turn, then re-stitching it. Works once on most rigs.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

The BOC pouch is well clear of the reserve and all the harness webbing, so a lot of folks feel that a Senior rigger can do this job. It's also listed in the Parachute Rigger Handbook (on the FAA website) as only requiring a Senior license.

If you are simply replacing a BOC pouch, that's true.

But if it is a modification, which is defined by the FAA as a change from the original manufactured configuration, then a Master Rigger has to do the work.

Quote

Be aware that some riggers will charge you for a full reserve inspect and repack as part of this job and justify it by claiming that the job can't be done with the reserve in the container, so make sure you know what the rigger has in mind. Personally I've never found it necessary to mess with the reserve when replacing or installing a BOC pouch, but maybe I'm more awesome than I thought.

I can probably install the BOC and pack the reserve before you finish fighting installing one with the reserve still packed....and it will be a cleaner install,....i.e. straighter stitching.

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[pchapman 261]

I don't know what Paragear has been selling lately, but a few years back their BOC pouches used pretty lousy spandex material -- that thin stuff that was normal on BOC's way back. I've usually bought BOCs from a container manufacturer, that use the modern much more heavyweight material.

[gnatt 0]

Guys,Thanks a bunch.

[Gary73 8]

Quote

But if it is a modification, which is defined by the FAA as a change from the original manufactured configuration, then a Master Rigger has to do the work.

Fair enough. The ones I've done have been cases in which the manufacturer offers both BOC and ROL, and the original purchaser chose ROL.

Quote

I can probably install the BOC and pack the reserve before you finish fighting installing one with the reserve still packed....and it will be a cleaner install,....i.e. straighter stitching.

No doubt you can do either job both faster and cleaner than I can, but last week I did a BOC replacement in about 30 minutes, start to finish, and it looked pretty good. Damn - maybe I am awesome!

Quote

I've usually bought BOCs from a container manufacturer, that use the modern much more heavyweight material.

Yeah, that new stuff (Spandura?) is nice. I guess it depends on the manufacturer, though. The last few we got from Strong were crap. The spandex tore loose from the binding tape in just a few weeks of normal use.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Fair enough. The ones I've done have been cases in which the manufacturer offers both BOC and ROL, and the original purchaser chose ROL.

Gary.

If you change the deployment method, it is considered a modification.

Simply put, if it came with a ROL and you replace the ROL it is a repair.

If it came with a ROL and you make it a BOC, it is a modification. One that requires no paperwork because,
1. You are a Master rigger
2. It is an approved configuration by the manufacturer. (In most Cases)

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Quote

Fair enough. The ones I've done have been cases in which the manufacturer offers both BOC and ROL, and the original purchaser chose ROL.

Gary.

If you change the deployment method, it is considered a modification.

Simply put, if it came with a ROL and you replace the ROL it is a repair.

If it came with a ROL and you make it a BOC, it is a modification. One that requires no paperwork because,
1. You are a Master rigger
2. It is an approved configuration by the manufacturer. (In most Cases)

Cheers,
MEL

Maybe it is time we take some steps to put some sense into the rigging regulations.

Converting ROL to BOC is no more difficult than replacing an existing BOC.

Maybe it is even simpler, since removing the old BOC can be a real pain on some rigs. (Some rigs have the original BOC sewn into the seam of the back panel and the bottom flap.)

Converting ROL to BOC doesn't necessarily mean removing anything since you can cover the old velcro hook with some pile tape.

Aside from the fact that the current regulations exist the way they do, is there any compelling reason why this conversion should require a Master?

(For the purpose of this question, let's say it is an approved configuration offered by the manufacturer. I'll grant that if it is not offered by the manufacturer, it is a different story.)

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Quote

But if it is a modification, which is defined by the FAA as a change from the original manufactured configuration, then a Master Rigger has to do the work.

I am a confused. Since this change is to the MAIN container, and the main isn't subject to TSO... Why is this a "modification" (aka: alteration) subject to FAA rules?

Maybe it is just me... but I think that the current FARs, Advisory Circular 105-2C, and FAA Rigger's Handbook are vague and confusing about repairs and modifications to the MAIN canopy and related MAIN gear.

Thanks.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Aside from the fact that the current regulations exist the way they do, is there any compelling reason why this conversion should require a Master?

Paul,
It pretty much is spelled out in plain english here:

From The FAA Inspector's Handbook....

E. Review Parachute Rigger Certificates and Seals
(1) Determine if the ratings are appropriate to the
parachutes packed. Ensure that alterations are only
performed by master parachute riggers on parachutes for
which they are rated.
(2) Ensure that the rigger meets the performance
standards and currency requirements of FAR § 65.129.
(3) Review the rigger’s log book to ensure that
records are being kept as required by FAR § 65.131.
(4) Determine if the rigger has the necessary tools
and facilities to accomplish the work.
(5) Ensure that the rigger is placing the seal on each parachute


It also is a listed by the FAA, as a task for Master Rigger testing....

BS,
MEL


PS - can't spell today!

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

I am a confused. Since this change is to the MAIN container, and the main isn't subject to TSO... Why is this a "modification" (aka: alteration) subject to FAA rules?

Maybe it is just me... but I think that the current FARs, Advisory Circular 105-2C, and FAA Rigger's Handbook are vague and confusing about repairs and modifications to the MAIN canopy and related MAIN gear.

Modifications and alterations can only be performed by a Maste Rigger ...Main or reserve.

If you read the FAR's, please note the use of "approved" or "certified". If it states one or the other, it is specific to that type.

If it is not specific, it includes both types, main and reserve.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[riggerpaul 1]

One the one hand, 65.111(b) is clear that working on a main is still under the control of the regulation.

Quote

FAR 65.111(b)

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

On the other hand, this regulation does not say anything about the container. It is clear that it includes the main parachute, but one might be able to argue that the container is not covered.

The regulations covering skydiving and rigging are a mess, plain and simple. Even with the rewrite of 105 a few years ago, the regulations remain arcane and difficult to interpret. Some like to interpret them to be more restrictive than they may truly be, while others want to take the less restrictive interpretations. We are forced to try to glean the intent of the law, and it is not always clear what those intents may have been.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Quote

Aside from the fact that the current regulations exist the way they do, is there any compelling reason why this conversion should require a Master?

Paul,
It pretty much is spelled out in plain english here:

From The FAA Inspector's Handbook....

E. Review Parachute Rigger Certificates and Seals
(1) Determine if the ratings are appropriate to the
parachutes packed. Ensure that alterations are only
performed by master parachute riggers on parachutes for
which they are rated.
(2) Ensure that the rigger meets the performance
standards and currency requirements of FAR § 65.129.
(3) Review the rigger’s log book to ensure that
records are being kept as required by FAR § 65.131.
(4) Determine if the rigger has the necessary tools
and facilities to accomplish the work.
(5) Ensure that the rigger is placing the seal on each parachute


It also is a listed by the FAA, as a task for Master Rigger testing....

BS,
MEL


PS - can't spell today!

Well, you certainly love your regulations, don't you.

I understand that the regulations as they are written call for a Master cert.

That's not the question.

I specifically said that that's not the question.

I said, "Aside from the fact that the current regulations exist the way they do...".

So I'll ask again.

If I am capable of replacing an existing BOC pouch, why do you think I am not capable of converting an ROL system to BOC?

This question isn't about the regulations. Please don't just quote regulations as an answer.

The question is about capabilities, not about regulations.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Well, you certainly love your regulations, don't you.

Paul,
Not really..I just try to understand them so that we can teach and test according to them!

Quote

If I am capable of replacing an existing BOC pouch, why do you think I am not capable of converting an ROL system to BOC?

This question isn't about the regulations. Please don't just quote regulations as an answer.

The question is about capabilities, not about regulations.

Actually I think both capabilities and regulations are connected here.

For instance, I know several people who pocess the skills necessary to pack a reserve has well as some riggers.
The problem is that they do not have the ratings to legally do so.

When the Senior rigger rating became available in 1972, the FAA defined (poorly I might Add) the limitations of each certificate. Until something changes, we still have to teach and test as such.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

When the Senior rigger rating became available in 1972, the FAA defined (poorly I might Add) the limitations of each certificate. Until something changes, we still have to teach and test as such.

BS,
MEL

Which is precisely why I began the discussion by saying that maybe it is time to fix the regulations.

Here's exactly what I said:

Quote

Maybe it is time we take some steps to put some sense into the rigging regulations.

Things don't just magically change by themselves. Change is driven by demand. If we are not looking to change things in the fist place, nothing will change.

So, do you think it is sensible that I can replace a BOC but I cannot convert a rig from ROL to BOC?

Do you think it is wrong that I can replace the BOC in the first place?

At the heart of all this is the notion that "major" work is different from other work. "Major" work has associated with it the possibility that, done incorrectly, it will render the rig unsafe for use.

Almost anything done wrong enough could make a rig unairworthy. So why make the distinction at all? Well, because there are lots of things that are simple enough to expect that a reasonably trained person, like a senior rigger, can do them properly.

If it was up to you, personally, would you want to say that a senior can only inspect and repack, and that all other work would require a Master?

That's certainly one possible approach, and if enough people could be convinced, it could be made the law of the land.

But if that's not where we should be going, then we should be trying to make reasoned evaluations of what is major and what is not.

If the performance standards say that something is major when it is not, then that standard is wrong and should be changed.

So, please tell me your opinion, should converting from ROL to BOC really be classified as a major operation? If so, please explain why.

[riggerrob 558]

Converting a main container from ROL to BOC is an alteration because if done improperly, it would interferr with the opening characteristics of the main canopy, ergo converting to BOC is a Master Rigger task.

Trust me, I have seen some truly FUGLY BOCs made by people who never held rigger's ratings. One of those FUGLY BOCs had such a hard pull that I almost had to resort to reserve. After landing, I did not even discuss the work with the (junior jumper) owner, merely ripped off the FUGLY BOC and sewed on a modern BOC, that looked like a close copy of the factory pattern.

As for Senior riggers - who think that they know as much as Master Riggers - prove it to an Examiner or shut the "F" up!

Rob Warner
FAA Master Rigger for back, seat and chest
Canadian Rigger Examiner

[timmyfitz 0]

Just curious. What are the requirements and qualifications for a senior rigger to become a master rigger?

[PhreeZone 14]

100 pack jobs each of 2 types (back, chest, seat) and 3 years experience holding a Senior rigger rating or equivalent.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

100 pack jobs each of 2 types (back, chest, seat) and 3 years experience holding a Senior rigger rating or equivalent.

Should have included this in the first question but....

In addition to what you mentioned, what does the DPRE test you on besides packing and experience?

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

Quote

100 pack jobs each of 2 types (back, chest or seat) and 3 years experience holding a Senior rigger rating or equivalent.

Should have included this in the first question but....

In addition to what you mentioned, what does the DPRE test you on besides packing and experience?

...................................................................................................

You don't NEED to hold a Senior Rigger rating for three years, but it makes a lot of sense. You still need three years EXPERIENCE rigging, but few Master Riggers are willing to supervise apprentices beyond 30 pack jobs.
Sometimes the FAA will allow foreign rigger ratings as partial proof of experience when applying for FAA rigger ratings.

A DPRE will test Master Rigger applicants on: regulations, materials identification, sewing machine adjustment, major canopy repairs and harness repairs.

For example - when Annie Helliwell tested me for my Master rigger rating - she started with quizing me about the limits of a Master Rigger's priveleges, then pulled out a stack of tape, webbing and fabric samples. I correctly identified ninety percent of the samples, but stumbled over the last ten percent. After a few minutes of scratching my head in confusion, she said "Don't worry, those last few samples are not MIL-SPEC materials."

Then she handed me a damaged canopy and pointed me towards a dis-assembled sewing machine. I had to install and adjust the: bobbin case tension spring, feed dogs, throat plate, needle bar and upper tension discs before starting the canopy repair, which included patching a bottom skin very close to a lateral reinforcing tape, line attachment tab and rib seam.
Finally she asked me to sew a WW stitch - with 5-cord - on Type 7 webbing.

I suspect that she let me off easy on harness and container repairs since - for the preceding two years - she had seen plenty of Talons that I had repaired - under the supervision of Master Riggers and TSO Inspectors at Rigging Innovations.