UntamedDOG 0 #27 January 5, 2006 QuoteIt is a 2 hour drive to his new dz Where is the new dropzone going to be located? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apley 0 #28 January 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt is a 2 hour drive to his new dz Where is the new dropzone going to be located? i knew i was going to bait someone with that statement. until the negotiations are complete, however, i won't publicly post any details unless andy approves of it first. i would not want to be responsible for inadvertantly sabotaging anything he has going on. know that he will create another first class dz. in 2 years andy turned a dry, nasty tandem factory into a world class operation that served funjumpers with the same status as students and tandems. his love of this sport and the people in it, and his generosity, are unparalleled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #29 January 5, 2006 when he opens it, i'll fly out and jump there, just b/c all you say he's the real deal. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #30 January 5, 2006 QuoteQuotebut I do understand that Buzz paid for half the cost on the DZ improvements as they were installed, and is to pay Andy for the other half as part of the lease agreement in the event it wasn't extended. Well, I've heard the exact opposite from people in the know at SSD. I was told that Andy did not receive any compensation for his investments. Maybe Andy or Buzz could jump on here and tell their side of the story to clear things up once and for all. I hope Andy was taken care of but from what people are telling me, it sounds as though Buzz did nothing of the sort. I'd have to ask who you mean by people in the know (rhetorical question, please don't answer)... there are a some people who are willing to let emotion direct their actions, and I believe in this case making accusations based on anger, not evidence. There are many people justifiably upset over the departure of Andy, and to make things clear, I am one of them. I don't know anyone who wants to see Andy leave, but being dissappointed about an undesirable business outcome doesn't justify character assassination. I'm thinking that caution is in order when we have someone who loudly proclaimed at the DZ "We're gonna get Buzz for this..." The two year lease Andy had on the DZ expired at the end of December, and negotiations to extend it failed... I wish Buzz would have been willing to take less return from Andy... I wish Andy could have given Buzz a little more... I wish things would stay the same as they were... but none of that is going to happen apparently... so we move forward. The fact that I don't hate Buzz, based on what I know, doesn't cheapen my support for Andy or my desire to help him with a new DZ. I agree with all the accolades accorded Andy (and then some), but I also believe Buzz to be an honorable man. If the actions Buzz took are unpalatable to you, take your business elsewhere. Don't cheapen yourself with attacks that are based on innuendo, bitterness, or rumor(this statement, not aimed at Untamed DOG). Again, with no intentions of putting words in his mouth, I don't think it likely that Andy would be supportive of the vitriolic accusations that have been made. Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #31 January 5, 2006 Quotewhen he opens it, i'll fly out and jump there, just b/c all you say he's the real deal. He IS the real deal... that part I agree with whole heartedly! Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinghonu 0 #32 January 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt is a 2 hour drive to his new dz Where is the new dropzone going to be located? i knew i was going to bait someone with that statement. until the negotiations are complete, however, i won't publicly post any details unless andy approves of it first. i would not want to be responsible for inadvertantly sabotaging anything he has going on. know that he will create another first class dz. in 2 years andy turned a dry, nasty tandem factory into a world class operation that served funjumpers with the same status as students and tandems. his love of this sport and the people in it, and his generosity, are unparalleled. Angry Hobit: Once Andy gives the OK, please start posting as much information as you can on the location, any volunteer work Andy could use, etc. Where have most of the fun jumpers ventured off to, Elsinore or Perris? "Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #33 January 5, 2006 Tritto_____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymiles 3 #34 January 6, 2006 QuoteWhat people fail to realize is that Andy chose to invest money in a business that he did not own. That was his choice. A good analogy would be someone who invests thousands of dollars to upgrade their apartment unit only to be evicted by the landlord that owns the property. A lot of people can learn from this incident. Do not invest a dime unless you own the business or property. I agree that what happened to Andy was fucked up. I remember what a shitty dropzone San Diego used to be before Andy fixed it up. I wish him luck and I hope that he makes better decisions before investing his time and money into another project. UntamedDOG You are absolutely right – why did Andy invest in an operation that wasn’t his outright? I can only imagine the conversations or contract wording that made him believe it was safe to do so. I always feared that he would be screwed over, but I hoped for the best. And yes, we can all learn from this. A qualified lawyer must review all contracts in order to assign the most cynical interpretation to each clause because right and wrong, unfortunately, have no place in business. Nonetheless, I wonder why Buzz would even want to take on the civilian skydiving operation again. After all, he sold it in the first place because he was “burnt out”. That’s what he told Chuck Apley in a telephone conversation anyway. Also, as far as I can tell he doesn’t jump anymore, and it’s not like he needs the money. Back in October, Buzz was bragging loudly in the experienced packing area that he was buying a 7 million dollar house in Coronado, CA. Phil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UntamedDOG 0 #35 January 6, 2006 QuoteAlso, as far as I can tell he doesn’t jump anymore, and it’s not like he needs the money. That is precisely why people think that Andy got screwed by Buzz. Buzz has a reputation for being a shrewd businessman. He wouldn’t do anything unless it was to his sole financial benefit. He doesn’t give a shit about Andy, trust me. Buzz ran the DZ into the ground, then got a naïve DZ investor (Andy) to fix everything, then he stole it back by refusing to renegotiate the lease. It is pretty obvious who the villain is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DirtyDon 0 #36 January 6, 2006 I agree with UntaimedDOG. For the simple fact that I have been jumping at skydive san diego pretty much every single weekend from the time Buzz moved there from brown field. It got to the point that there wasn't really any fun jumpers going to SSD before Andy took over. The way Skymiles explained it at the begining of this thread is exactly how it was. Hey rus speer, how come you don't ever hang out with the fun jumpers, I barely even know who you are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #37 January 6, 2006 Quote Hey rus speer, how come you don't ever hang out with the fun jumpers, I barely even know who you are. With my schedule it is difficult to make the trip down there for weekend jumping, so I usually am there during midweek... To the claims that Buzz ran the DZ into the ground, I call Bullshit! When Buzz took over the operation at Otay there was virtually nothing there! He brought in the buildings and started to provide facilities to serve jumpers on a permanent basis. He had flush toilets on location till a disgruntled member of the ultralight group pulled some strings at City Hall to get the skydiving operation out. Intervention by Buzz (who holds the lease on the property) paved the way for Andy to bring the flush toilets back. As a part of the military contract (before Andy leased the DZ) Buzz was able to pave the dirt runway. Similarly, I never saw any resemblance to the "Tandem Mill" horror that has been spoken of by others here. Granted, most of my jumps have occurred during the week, but I never saw anyone bumped or denied slots to make way for walk up tandems. Like anyplace with integrity, if you were manifested first, you got on the load. If you're complaining because there are tandems on most of the loads... well you're right. For me, that has been a good thing as it helped to ensure I could usually get in some jumps during the week, so what's the beef? There is no argument from me that Andy provided the drive, vision, and execution to make the DZ the fantastic place it is now, but the claims made about Buzz destoying the place are dishonest and have cheapened the credibility of those who justifyably wish to support Andy. I consider Andy a FRIEND, and I am heartbroken to see him go! Andy has treated me extremely well, but that is no surprize as that is how he treats everyone! I think it legitimate for jumpers to worry about what is going to happen to the DZ now because the direction with Andy in charge was clear and reassuring, but I don't believe that Buzz is going to ruin the jumper experience there! He certainly improved it significantly prior to Andy taking over... Based on what I know, I can only conclude that the accusations being made here are designed to punish Buzz, based on things that I believe to be untrue. Did Buzz screw Andy? ...maybe, since I never read the contract, it_is_possible. If you want to take jumpers away from Otay, help Andy build a DZ that will pull them in... 'cause Andy certainly knows how to build a DZ! Still see no reason for what I believe to be untruths being spread here... Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sd-slider 0 #38 January 6, 2006 QuoteIf the hatin' ruins all that effort, the skydiving community is the loser. So true. I have thought about this as well. I am a low number, low frequency jumper who is currently sitting on forty(40) jump tickets left-over from the transition. I have no choice but to use them as I cannot afford to "ditch'em" in the interest of a boycott. I cannot say I will be as happy while I'm there using my tickets without all my peeps, but, the fact remains they are worth a grip of dough and I NEED to use the ones that I have before venturing elswhere. What happens after my existing tickets are gone I do not know. Hopefully someone will pick me up from the side of the freeway and give me a ride to the other places (I'll help with gas!) as the drive in my current vehicle would cost more than the tickets when I get there. Bottom line....Do what you feel is right. But remember, are we not in it for the safe/fun promotion of OUR sport?Anvil Brother #69 Sidelined with a 5mm C5-C6 herniated disk... Back2Back slammers and 40yr old fat guys don't mix! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sd-slider 0 #39 January 6, 2006 QuoteHe IS the real deal... that part I agree with whole heartedly! BTW - Andy assured me that MY tickets will be good at his future DZ..How kewl is that? Give me an "A", give me an "N", give me a "D", sorry, that was a limp wristed attempt at rejoicing aforementioned statementAnvil Brother #69 Sidelined with a 5mm C5-C6 herniated disk... Back2Back slammers and 40yr old fat guys don't mix! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #40 January 7, 2006 What happened at SSD just sucks. I am one of the jumpers that will not jump there anymore... I just got to spend a couple wonderful days up at Perris and have started trying to get into the flow there, .. I'm going to miss San Diego, but thankfully most of my friends who are also leaving have made the decision to go that much easier. Andy, you are the shit.. You are one of the few that was willing (however hesitant I'm sure you must have been) to give me the second chance that I took after my AFF 3 which resulted in some bowling speeches, making you one of the few people that allowed me to experience and enjoy this sport to the extent that I do now. You have changed that dropzone SO MUCH since I started jumping, it has really become a great place, and like some of the others that have posted here I will help you in any way I can to help get the new operation off the ground. Infact, I will consider it an insult if you dont give me the opertunity to pound a few nails or something We had a great group of jumpers to hang out with at San Diego, it's sad to see the "family" broken up like it is now. When andy gets his new operation off the ground we gotta have a Skydive San Diego Jumpers Reunion Boogie or something FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #41 January 7, 2006 Was just looking over the DZ reviews, since I was editing mine.. Ran accross a review by the now owner (again) Buzz.. Thought it was interesting. QuoteSkydive San Diego is now under the new management of Andy Witcomb. He has brought the DZ to a new level including new portable restrooms instead of the porta potties, new team rooms. He has cleaned the place up and has bought new gear. The place is awesome!! From the beautiful mountain and lake views to the fastest climbing 300 series otters (yes, otters as in 2 300 series otters)to the friendly atmosphere, the place is rocking!! If you have not stopped by lately, do so and check out the new digs and happenings. They even have Icarus Team Evolution there all week and weekends. Definitely worth checking out again!!! Buzz (former mgr, retired :)) Now it's just too bad Andy got pushed out.. As the review says, it was a great place to jump. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apley 0 #42 January 7, 2006 nate, you ROCK!!! thank you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apley 0 #43 January 7, 2006 QuoteBased on what I know, I can only conclude that the accusations being made here are designed to punish Buzz, based on things that I believe to be untrue. Did Buzz screw Andy? ...maybe, since I never read the contract, it_is_possible. i have spent nearly every weekend at sdsd for the past 4.5 years. i don't know who you are, russ, and sorry we never met... but we definitely don't see things the same way. perhaps there is another dz during the week? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #44 January 7, 2006 Quote i have spent nearly every weekend at sdsd for the past 4.5 years. i don't know who you are, russ, and sorry we never met... but we definitely don't see things the same way. perhaps there is another dz during the week? I agree Chuck, sorry we haven't yet met. Since I live so close to Perris and Elsinore, I'm sure we'll eventually hook up... As to seeing things differently; I don't think I'm any less sad than you to see Andy go, it just bothered the hell out of me to see things said that were untrue in my opinion, with the only motive I could figure to be to punish Buzz. I'd rather address the issue itself instead of piling up fertilizer to make the situation look worse than I believe it was. I don't know, it's just an honor thing with me, so I told Buzz I was unhappy with the turn of events and we talked about it face to face. I still go back to my experiences with him, and they just do not match up with the accusations I've seen here. And the descriptions of how he ran the DZ in the past didn't match what I knew either. I just chalked it up to anger that would dissipate, but it seemed to be feeding on itself and growing... As for talking with Andy... I saw him on Christmas Eve, and just didn't have the heart to ask him about the details. I made the trip down there just to tell him how appreciative I was of all the good things he has done for everybody, me included, and let him know I'd help him any way I could. He was focused on the future, and that's a good thing. I am looking forward to his new endeavor. My call of bullshit was a plea for people to stop and think before posting... to not let anger cause baseless accusations. Many of the assertions made initially have now been shown to be false. Buzz didn't _sell_ the DZ to Andy, he didn't steal the DZ back, it was a 2 year lease with option to renew, with provision for either party to refuse to extend... those are the apparent facts. If I've got that wrong, I'll be the first to apologize. Now it may be possible that Andy believed that the extension was guaranteed, it is possible Buzz hoodwinked Andy, maybe some believe Buzz had this planned all along,,,but I don't think so... those are my opinions to be sure, and I can readily accept others taking an opposing view. But running Otay into the ground??? Having a total disregard for the fun jumpers??? That's what I call Bullshit. What was at Otay when Buzz moved there from Brown? What kind of aircraft was being used? What facilities were there in the way of restrooms? Buzz brought in the portable buildings, built the permanent packing /gear room, brought in flush toilets, provided turbine aircraft (Otter and then added a Caravan as needed) in addition to the 206, and paved the runway. Don't think there is anyone out there who can argue about the growth of Otay as just described, prior to Andy taking it over. None of this, of course, would excuse crooked business practices, but then I've seen no "Smoke", let alone "Fire" in that regard. More subjective are the claims that Buzz was abusive or ambivalent about fun jumpers and staff. I saw nothing (I realize that that doesn't mean it never happened) that supports that opinion. I remember him allowing the Otter to fly with as little as 6 fun jumpers... no tandems... doesn't seem to fit the picture painted does it? I was never bumped or made to wait for slots that I didn't deserve to wait for. If I was manifested, I got on the load, I was never asked to give up my slot, although I have on occasion volunteered my slot to make room for AFF students. I understand some staff chafed under rules that Buzz set in place... but can you name any organization that doesn't? It was his business, his vision, his risks to take... so he gets to call the shots. He certainly received lots of grief for his AAD requirement... but gee, didn't he also buy a bunch of AADs and allow FUN JUMPERS to buy them on payment plan so they could meet his requirement without losing the opportunity to jump? Obviously, those who found that requirement too onerous went elsewhere, but he was still savaged for his actions. His actions certainly struck me as someone who had high regard for fun jumpers...YMMV. As I said previously, I have had an excellent relationship with BOTH these men. I'm greatly saddened by the turn of events and the parting of their ways... but I know nothing that makes me feel justified in shunning one for the other, let alone publicly castigating one of them. Maybe I'm naive, but I plan on continuing to jump at Otay, not in spite of Buzz, but partially because of him... I also hope to soon be jumping at Andy's new DZ also. If my position pisses you off, I'm sorry, but I gave up long ago trying to do what pleases others if it comprimises my integrity. If anyone wants to take Buzz to task for the outcome of the lease with Andy, do it on the merits of that action... no need to bear false witness. (edited to clarify exhortation as not directed at any one individual...) Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apley 0 #45 January 7, 2006 improvements made by buzz were whatever was required for the military contract. no more, no less. i have helped with some of those improvements and most of them were initiated by andy. buzz's generosity included selling a camera and helmet to a jumper with 20 jumps, at a price he couldn't resist. he has been jumping the camera since jump 21. it scares me that a business decision may end that young man's life. i don't intend to use a public formum to slander buzz, although i have been known to get carried away by emotion at times. i have been hearing negative comments about the man for years, and always reserved my opinion for my own observations. he has always treated me well, and is a fairly likable person. i am merely stating that there are 2 sides to this story, and none of us has ALL of the details, and each of us has a unique perspective. i will also say that with less than 200 jumps, your history is much shorter than most of us, so you would obviously have a different opinion. you might reserve your call to Bullshit, and open your mind a bit more as well. i believe your point is well taken that we should be careful with baseless accusation, but airing our grievances can also invite enough participation to separate the fact from bullshit. It also allows us to grieve. we can save the positive thinking for when andy has something else going.... the real story here is that there has been a drastic change in the dynamic of our favorite playground. people are hurt and angry, and need release. this should be clear in some of our posts. when these emotions burn off, there will be time for clear thinking. this may also serve as a challenge to buzz to maintain the legacy of a great skydiver and managing dzo. i look foward to meeting you, speer. elsinore will likely be my most frequent hangout for a while. perris is not my favorite place... the angry hobbit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
godfrog 2 #46 January 8, 2006 QuoteGood resume writing skills dude! only if we trade rigs to jump afterwards!!!!!Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgorm 0 #47 January 16, 2006 I just started jumping last july so i dont know much history about the DZ but sure had a great time. We went down yesterday for the first time since the owners changed and the DZ is not the same. There are way less instructors (and way less people), so they have to delay each load for packing, debriefs, etc so its much slower now. It seems less safe too. I told a AFF1 that he needed goggles and couldnt jump in his sunglasses about 2 minutes before he got on the plane. During thier final instruction sombody told them to pull around 4-5000'. I thought it was "lock on at 6K and pull at 5500". Not big issues but still. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #48 January 16, 2006 Quote I told a AFF1 that he needed goggles and couldnt jump in his sunglasses about 2 minutes before he got on the plane. How did he take the request? -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgorm 0 #49 January 16, 2006 No problem, he forgot he had them on. I had a friend in the same AFF class so i was keeping an eye on them just incase. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dolph 0 #50 January 17, 2006 What makes jumping in sunglasses inherently unsafe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
