RSL

[airtwardo 6]

jtiflyer

***
Which is what didn't make sense to me in your earlier post and still doesn't. The whole point behind leaving a secondary reserve deployment system disconnected while jumping full-size camera gear is that the main can snag the gear during a cutaway, causing a reserve deployment with the main still attached to the jumper.

The possibility of a main/reserve entanglement under those circumstances is precisely why camera flyers don't typical use MARD's or RSL's.

Either we (myself and the others here who are questioning your comments) don't correctly understand your point, or we do understand you correctly and you don't comprehend the risk we are pointing out.

To be fair to you, can you again try to explain in such a way that we can all be clear about your position? Maybe you could describe a scenario that would exemplify your point.

Ok I think we are all considering different scenarios here. My biggest fear is deploying my main, and having it entangle my helmet. I jump a velo loaded at 2.2-2.3. If my canopy isnt symmetrical I am going on a ride quickly. If my helmet is tied up, I know I have to cut the helmet away before cutting away the main. Having your head pinned by entanglement sucks cause I have been through it before (I caused the snag kicking out of line twists on a crossfire and it hooked my ring sight).

What I am not concerned with is entangling my main risers or lines with my helmet when I am already experiencing a problem. With my last 2 cutaways I had line twists pretty far down bringing the risers very close to my ears. By simply looking at my feet spinning on the horizon, I bring my chin down towards my chest bringing the helmet clear of the risers. With the centrifugal force building, when you cutaway you launch a decent distance from the main, which clears the risers very quickly. With the reserve being extracted away from you, the odds of the 2" reserve risers or the lines entangling are not something I am concerning myself with.

I see where you're coming from...but if I might offer another scenario to consider -

You're counting 100% on being able to cut away your helmet should an entanglement occur, 'what if' it either fails to release, or the force is such that you can't get it cleanly?

Altitude allowing of course...you might be able to give the helmet release another shot after cutting away and changing the directional force and possible the amount of force pulling at your head...and even if not - you are (arguably) marginally better off firing the reserve flat & stable into a main streamering off your helmet then you are deploying it into a spinning horseshoe.

Does that make any sense?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[chuckakers 370]

jtiflyer

***
Which is what didn't make sense to me in your earlier post and still doesn't. The whole point behind leaving a secondary reserve deployment system disconnected while jumping full-size camera gear is that the main can snag the gear during a cutaway, causing a reserve deployment with the main still attached to the jumper.

The possibility of a main/reserve entanglement under those circumstances is precisely why camera flyers don't typical use MARD's or RSL's.

Either we (myself and the others here who are questioning your comments) don't correctly understand your point, or we do understand you correctly and you don't comprehend the risk we are pointing out.

To be fair to you, can you again try to explain in such a way that we can all be clear about your position? Maybe you could describe a scenario that would exemplify your point.

Ok I think we are all considering different scenarios here. My biggest fear is deploying my main, and having it entangle my helmet. I jump a velo loaded at 2.2-2.3. If my canopy isnt symmetrical I am going on a ride quickly. If my helmet is tied up, I know I have to cut the helmet away before cutting away the main. Having your head pinned by entanglement sucks cause I have been through it before (I caused the snag kicking out of line twists on a crossfire and it hooked my ring sight).

What I am not concerned with is entangling my main risers or lines with my helmet when I am already experiencing a problem. With my last 2 cutaways I had line twists pretty far down bringing the risers very close to my ears. By simply looking at my feet spinning on the horizon, I bring my chin down towards my chest bringing the helmet clear of the risers. With the centrifugal force building, when you cutaway you launch a decent distance from the main, which clears the risers very quickly. With the reserve being extracted away from you, the odds of the 2" reserve risers or the lines entangling are not something I am concerning myself with.

For a point of reference, I have 2,000+ video jumps on heavily loaded Velo's with full-size camera gear. I also have 10 chops, 8 of them on spinning Velos, with and without cameras on.

Two points. First, I think you are over-thinking the "snag during deployment" thing. I'm sure it's happened, but I don't personally know a of a single incident in which a camera flyer was in a stable position and had a snag caused from line twists, asymmetrical opening, or any other unusual occurrence. I know many camera flyers who have experienced line twists to the point of having their heads pinned down, and while that sucks it doesn't present much of a snag hazard because typically there's nothing on the back corners of the helmet where the risers would be for them to snag on. I personally minimized the possibility of a helmet snag in that scenario by simply watching my deployments with my head up rather than forward or down. That way when my canopy spun up my head was behind the risers prohibiting the twist from forcing my head down. Not that it matters, but I also got great video of my mal and chop that way.

Second, you are correct that we have been discussing two different scenarios, so now let's just talk about the "RSL during a cutaway" issue. Without respect to any other risks of snags, a snag after a chop with a secondary reserve deployment system engaged has a good chance of killing you. A chopped, snagged main will likely be partially inflated, probably spinning, may be rocking and stalling, and if only one riser snagged there be a riser set and a crap-load of lines above you flailing around as well. That will give the reserve p/c, bag, and lines a big target. If the reserve interacts with a mess like that the results will likely not be pretty.

Bottom line - an increased snag risk during a cutaway should dictate that a secondary reserve deployment system not be engaged, but an increased snag risk at any other point in the skydive for any reason should dictate the same thing. Regardless of why or when the risk of a snag exists, IMO the correct procedure is to disengage any secondary reserve deployment system.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jtiflyer 0]

The snag during a cutaway is a sequence that in most instances can be prevented with a little fore thought. Fix snag points on your helmet and there is then nothing to snag on. If I snag and then need to cutaway I have no problem losing the helmet.

Bottom line for me is to minimize the snag points to make this a mute point. Both video and stills are not over hanging my helmet at any point, which makes it nearly impossible to snag. My ring sight uses the nylon screws and i know I can break those off no problem.

Maybe weird its just my luck, but I have had my ring sight snag lines after clearing line twists (Flat top Pro). I have also lost a helmet after a my hand hit the helmet release while I was struggling with a rough opening and the resulting 360 launched the helmet off my head(Vapor Pro). I have since built a cover for the replacement helmet (Vapor Pro).

Not sure where I was reading in an article that there are no documented cases where a RSL has caused a fatality due to main reserve entanglement. But fatalities of people trying to open reserves without enough altitude sure seem to be rising.

[chuckakers 370]

jtiflyer

The snag during a cutaway is a sequence that in most instances can be prevented with a little fore thought. Fix snag points on your helmet and there is then nothing to snag on. If I snag and then need to cutaway I have no problem losing the helmet.

Bottom line for me is to minimize the snag points to make this a mute point. Both video and stills are not over hanging my helmet at any point, which makes it nearly impossible to snag. My ring sight uses the nylon screws and i know I can break those off no problem.

Maybe weird its just my luck, but I have had my ring sight snag lines after clearing line twists (Flat top Pro). I have also lost a helmet after a my hand hit the helmet release while I was struggling with a rough opening and the resulting 360 launched the helmet off my head(Vapor Pro). I have since built a cover for the replacement helmet (Vapor Pro).

Not sure where I was reading in an article that there are no documented cases where a RSL has caused a fatality due to main reserve entanglement. But fatalities of people trying to open reserves without enough altitude sure seem to be rising.

There were several RSL related entanglements from riser breaks years back. I believe at least one tandem was fatal after a riser break if memory serves me correctly. The riser breaks were a different initial problem, but the entanglement due to an active RSL was the same - a main that didn't leave combined with an RSL-activated reserve.

Do what makes you comfortable, I guess. Maybe your out-of-the-box approach is the way to go, but it's certainly contrary to known best practices.

All the best.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jtiflyer 0]

chuckakers

***The snag during a cutaway is a sequence that in most instances can be prevented with a little fore thought. Fix snag points on your helmet and there is then nothing to snag on. If I snag and then need to cutaway I have no problem losing the helmet.

Bottom line for me is to minimize the snag points to make this a mute point. Both video and stills are not over hanging my helmet at any point, which makes it nearly impossible to snag. My ring sight uses the nylon screws and i know I can break those off no problem.

Maybe weird its just my luck, but I have had my ring sight snag lines after clearing line twists (Flat top Pro). I have also lost a helmet after a my hand hit the helmet release while I was struggling with a rough opening and the resulting 360 launched the helmet off my head(Vapor Pro). I have since built a cover for the replacement helmet (Vapor Pro).

Not sure where I was reading in an article that there are no documented cases where a RSL has caused a fatality due to main reserve entanglement. But fatalities of people trying to open reserves without enough altitude sure seem to be rising.

There were several RSL related entanglements from riser breaks years back. I believe at least one tandem was fatal after a riser break if memory serves me correctly. The riser breaks were a different initial problem, but the entanglement due to an active RSL was the same - a main that didn't leave combined with an RSL-activated reserve.

Do what makes you comfortable, I guess. Maybe your out-of-the-box approach is the way to go, but it's certainly contrary to known best practices.

All the best.

In the instance of a riser break the RSL is not the cause of the problem, the risers are. That would be similar to somebody pulling low and having an AAD fire. Which would result in a 2 out and then blaming the AAD for the 2 out. The AAD worked as intended, its operator error. Risers generally don't just break. Is there the possibility of manufacturer defect? Yes of course there is, but most likely its usually due to the risers being poorly maintained or damaged.

I understand what you are saying. Yes there are instances where a secondary system might bite you in the ass. However I believe most of those problems could be handled well before they happen. Whether its proper gear maintenance, making a helmet as snag resistant as possible, or simply thinking worst case scenario before you might try something questionable.

Please don't take my POV as argumentative or trolling. I am speaking from experience I have been through or through instances others have been through. I am always trying to absorb as much knowledge as I can.

[chuckakers 370]

jtiflyer

In the instance of a riser break the RSL is not the cause of the problem, the risers are. That would be similar to somebody pulling low and having an AAD fire. Which would result in a 2 out and then blaming the AAD for the 2 out. The AAD worked as intended, its operator error. Risers generally don't just break. Is there the possibility of manufacturer defect? Yes of course there is, but most likely its usually due to the risers being poorly maintained or damaged.

I understand what you are saying. Yes there are instances where a secondary system might bite you in the ass. However I believe most of those problems could be handled well before they happen. Whether its proper gear maintenance, making a helmet as snag resistant as possible, or simply thinking worst case scenario before you might try something questionable.

Please don't take my POV as argumentative or trolling. I am speaking from experience I have been through or through instances others have been through. I am always trying to absorb as much knowledge as I can.

I wasn't comparing the initial causes of the problems. As I pointed pointed out, the INITIAL cause in the riser breaks WAS different. What WAS the same was the fact that for WHATEVER REASON the main failed to separate from the jumper (as in a snag) and that combined with an engaged RSL resulted in an entanglement. BTW dragging us down the comparison of a user error as the cause and AAD fire is irrelevant.

Your assertion that problems can be handled before they become reality is also irrelevant in the context of this conversation. The point of this conversation isn't how to keep things from happening, it is about what happens when a jumper follows best practices -"proper gear maintenance, making a helmet as snag resistant as possible, or simply thinking worst case scenario before you might try something questionable", to use your words - and the sh*t hits the fan anyway.

I appreciate that you do all you can to avoid the situation, but that's not the debate. This conversation is about whether or not an RSL is appropriate for use in an environment of added entanglement risk when all our best practices fail and plain bad luck puts us in the situation.

That said, I do not see your posts as argumentative or trolling. I see them as an honest conversation between skydivers who want the best for one another and the sport. I believe we learn a lot from such practical debates and while I take issue with some of your logic I truly appreciate hearing your position.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Deimian 43]

From my perspective, I think everything boils down to probabilities. What is more likely to happen? An additional problem because the RSL/MARD released the reserve in a ball of crap, or that somebody (that has disconnected the RSL/MARD due to the first scenario) for whatever reason lost altitude awareness and can't pull the reserve after a cutaway in time to save their ass?

I don't have the answer, but I am under the impression that the second scenario is more likely, and therefore it has more importance. I also think that the "won't happen to me because I have lots of experience and I'm above the curve" attitude can eventually bite many people in the ass, as it has happen before many times.

[chuckakers 370]

Deimian

From my perspective, I think everything boils down to probabilities. What is more likely to happen? An additional problem because the RSL/MARD released the reserve in a ball of crap, or that somebody (that has disconnected the RSL/MARD due to the first scenario) for whatever reason lost altitude awareness and can't pull the reserve after a cutaway in time to save their ass?

I don't have the answer, but I am under the impression that the second scenario is more likely, and therefore it has more importance. I also think that the "won't happen to me because I have lots of experience and I'm above the curve" attitude can eventually bite many people in the ass, as it has happen before many times.

This is not a discussion about routine jumps. If it was I would agree with you on the likelihood of going in because of a low pull/no pull after a chop vs the risk of a snag.

This discussion is specifically about using a secondary reserve deployment system while conducting activities in which a snag after chopping is increased such as the mentioned use of large cameras.

Under those circumstances it is widely accepted that the risk of a snag is increased to the point that it is prudent to disengage any such system.

I don't know about other countries, but in the U.S. this has been a long-standing best practice as recommended by USPA and an accepted practice by nearly every large format camera flyer.

For most skydivers there isn't much debate on this.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Deimian 43]

chuckakers

Under those circumstances it is widely accepted that the risk of a snag is increased to the point that it is prudent to disengage any such system.

Widely accepted does not mean wisely accepted. I think my statement about probabilities still holds true. I agree that large cameras setup can increase significantly the risk of a snag, but do we have data that supports that position? Something like fatalities due to snags on large camera setups vs. fatalities due to low or no reserve deployment after a cutaway (when the skydiver is wearing such large cameras). Honest question here. If there is such data we can all learn. If there is not then all this discussion is based on opinions (which is not necessarily bad).

Another question is (and a little bit of just aloud thinking), if we have this data, how detailed it is? For instance it looks to me that a Vapor narrow helmet with a SLR camera fairly close to the surface of the helmet is more snag resistant than the average Go Pro mount. So, theoretically, the statistics might show that it is better to disengage the RSL/MARD when using a GoPro with a normal mount, but not when using a SLR on a Vapor helmet. Meaning that the widely accepted fact that large cameras setups should be used without an RSL/MARD might be wrong (when using a less snag-prone helmet/system), but it might be true for the small cameras setups. If we throw in the mix cutaway systems for helmets then it becomes even more complicated.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

...but do we have data that supports that position? Something like fatalities due to snags on large camera setups vs. fatalities due to low or no reserve deployment after a cutaway (when the skydiver is wearing such large cameras). Honest question here. If there is such data we can all learn. If there is not then all this discussion is based on opinions (which is not necessarily bad).

Now THAT would be some difficult data to both gather & quantify. Way too many variables to ever get a definitive answer IMO.

~ Since we're discussing the 'what ifs' so to speak...

I've been strapping on snag hazards well beyond what most would consider doing - for over 35 years...the 'what if' training is mind boggling when going over every possible scenario, but it's what one has to do when entering that arena.

The one 'what if' scenario I never concern myself with, is going low due to lack of awareness. That's a software problem not a hardware one...When I'm doing a demo with all kinds of things all over me - snagging lines is a very real concern, so I pattern both the dive in general & the EP's with that as a primary consideration.

I also have that mind set when 'only' jumping cameras...It's not a 'standard' type skydive - extraordinary precautions & additional procedures HAVE to be implemented. Since I know (however slight) I now have an additional thing to deal with my pull alt. & hard decks get moved up accordingly. ~~ I don't want to get into the whole camera debate here...but IMO someone chopping low & being saved by the RSL/MARD with a camera on, wasn't ready to be doing 'extraordinary' jumps.

~ sure, glad they're alive - now go dump the camera until you're ready.

I have 14 cutaways - none have ever involved an RSL, on about 1/2 of those cutaways HAVING and RSL would've increased the odds against a clean reserve deployment...it's an odds game - any edge you can give yourself is a good thing.

Just my opinion - but when wearing ANYTHING that could snag a deploying parachute, it's in your best interest to be flat & stable, in 100% control of your body position prior to launching EITHER pilot chute.

That said ~ I have MY RSL hooked up whenever I'm NOT jumping demos or cameras....

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Skydivesg 6]

Not directed at anyone in particular >

As long as we are opining in this tread.

I really enjoy reading posts from most of the people listed in the last couple of pages. However, it is my opinion that this thread has been allowed to drift into any area which provides minimal help for the OP's original post and question considering his low jump numbers.

Maybe there should be a thread about camera and demo snag threats and the subsequent use of RSL's.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[airtwardo 6]

Skydivesg

Not directed at anyone in particular >

As long as we are opining in this tread.

I really enjoy reading posts from most of the people listed in the last couple of pages. However, it is my opinion that this thread has been allowed to drift into any area which provides minimal help for the OP's original post and question considering his low jump numbers.

Maybe there should be a thread about camera and demo snag threats and the subsequent use of RSL's.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Point taken ~ however, IMO the OP's query was fairly well answered...the follow up posts addressing others with relevant questions & comments aren't really drifting as one area of the topic 'should' lead to discourse about the others.

For example - when comments such as 'ego' are thrown out regarding some people's well considered & logical choice not use use an RSL or MARD, that should be cleared up so that those not fully aware of the possible hazards certain situations present - can make an actual informed decision...or at least have varying viewpoint with which to consider.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[gunpaq 1]

Quote

I have MY RSL hooked up whenever I'm NOT jumping demos or cameras....Cool

Ditto.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[PiLFy 0]

Quote

"For example - when comments such as 'ego' are thrown out regarding some people's well considered & logical choice not use use an RSL or MARD, that should be cleared up so that those not fully aware of the possible hazards certain situations present - can make an actual informed decision...or at least have varying viewpoint with which to consider."

I agree. If I ever decide to hang half a f*@#ing hardware store off my harness & helmet? I'll unhook my RSL ...

[davjohns 1]

I guess I'll jump back in here...

Why DO people put all that gangly equipment on their helmets? I have a nice little video camera I mount on my motorcycle that is pretty aerodynamic. It seems easy enough to me for someone to have a bullet type camera and build a little nest for it on the helmet with fiberglass or other composite so it is smooth and snag free.

Maybe the resolution of my camera isn't great. I really don't know. The video of my rides is too good for people to watch without getting motion sick. Surely there's something more sleek than the gopro?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[DSE 3]

davjohns

Maybe the resolution of my camera isn't great. I really don't know. The video of my rides is too good for people to watch without getting motion sick. Surely there's something more sleek than the gopro?

at the risk of derailing the thread even further, the reason people get sick watching your video isn't because it's "so good," but because the shutter speed is so high that the contrasts and colors are surreal and impossible for the brain to decode well.
Yes, there are streamlined cameras that aren't nearly as snag-related as the GoPro.

To Sandy's point and perhaps a bit of summation;

RSL's are highly recommended for anyone not hanging large camera systems on their heads. Those that wear large camera systems on their heads are likely highly experienced and have a good idea of when they should/shouldn't disconnect an RSL.

RSL's have very few caveats, and have saved a great many lives. It's recommended that the 'average' skydiver use one for safety.

[chuckakers 370]

Deimian

Widely accepted does not mean wisely accepted. I think my statement about probabilities still holds true.

Wisdom has no argument against ignorance.

Good luck.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Deimian 43]

chuckakers

Wisdom has no argument against ignorance.

Good luck.

I completely agree. Thank you for your wish. Good luck for you too.

[Boogers 0]

Deimian

From my perspective, I think everything boils down to probabilities. What is more likely to happen? An additional problem because the RSL/MARD released the reserve in a ball of crap, or that somebody (that has disconnected the RSL/MARD due to the first scenario) for whatever reason lost altitude awareness and can't pull the reserve after a cutaway in time to save their ass?

I don't have the answer, but I am under the impression that the second scenario is more likely, and therefore it has more importance. I also think that the "won't happen to me because I have lots of experience and I'm above the curve" attitude can eventually bite many people in the ass, as it has happen before many times.

The probabilities that exist for a newer jumper are different from the probabilities that exist for a veteran jumper. Therefore, overall probabilities don't necessarily serve everyone's best interest. There are niches or other categories where there are interactions with different probabilities, and RSL probabilities shouldn't be taken as stand-alone, isolated from everything else.

[Deimian 43]

Boogers

The probabilities that exist for a newer jumper are different from the probabilities that exist for a veteran jumper. Therefore, overall probabilities don't necessarily serve everyone's best interest. There are niches or other categories where there are interactions with different probabilities, and RSL probabilities shouldn't be taken as stand-alone, isolated from everything else.

I absolutely agree. That is why I was asking if we have some sort of fatalities/incident database, to analyse and correlate all these different variables. But I understand it is close to impossible to gather and correctly classify this data.

[wmw999 2,121]

If you want to play with it, I have a dataset of about 12-15 years' worth of fatalities with about 10 variables identified (by me, but I did at least state my methodology). One problem is that some aren't available, like wing loading (not consistent, even in swooping fatalities). It only goes up to about 2009 or 2010; I'd planned on trying to do some statistical analysis, but never got around to it after getting busy on some other stuff.

It'd be pretty easy to bring it more up to date, or just work with it as far as it goes. It's an excel worksheet.

One thing I did notice is that a demo jump, or something like that (e.g. "jump-ins") had a noticeably elevated risk.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Deimian 43]

I would love to take a look at it. Is it international or US-centric? How many events? Is it big enough to have some statistical significance? If I find something interesting I'll let you know .