RSL

[skydiverek 54]

Here is the correct, working link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsEI_6cErbM

[DSE 3]

Chuck, I did test it. The photo I was trying to find of the snag point being at the base vs being at the attachment is my helmet/fish scale. I can't find it ATM.
The VRB came off comparatively easily when rotated but was damn near impossible with a straight turn. It released before the camera mount broke.

That said, I'm sure *you* could manage it. You're highly experienced, likely quite capable in a malfunction situation. But most of the people that need to read and understand this conversation aren't anywhere near as capable nor experienced as you.
FWIW, GoPro mounts are a tad more expensive than a dime In my case, the case mount flange itself broke before the snap bracket in the mount broke. YMMV.

[chuckakers 370]

DSE

Chuck, I did test it. The photo I was trying to find of the snag point being at the base vs being at the attachment is my helmet/fish scale. I can't find it ATM.
The VRB came off comparatively easily when rotated but was damn near impossible with a straight turn. It released before the camera mount broke.

That said, I'm sure *you* could manage it. You're highly experienced, likely quite capable in a malfunction situation. But most of the people that need to read and understand this conversation aren't anywhere near as capable nor experienced as you.
FWIW, GoPro mounts are a tad more expensive than a dime In my case, the case mount flange itself broke before the snap bracket in the mount broke. YMMV.

All true, although I don't know that my experience would help as much as my adrenaline in a snag scenario. I'm about to install the cookie mount that minimizes the snag hazard so I can get rid of the aftermarket aluminum screw attached mount that is a true death trap.

Kind of wonder why no one has made a specialty box of even a helmet that incorporates the Go Pro directly into it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DSE 3]

Quote

Kind of wonder why no one has made a specialty box of even a helmet that incorporates the Go Pro directly into it.

Cost of designing/manufacturing a helmet that locks the user into a single camera when there are so many choices comes to mind? It's one thing to print/rapid proto a small part that might be snag resistant, and quite another to develop molds for a helmet that might be outdated in September. I'd not want to take the risk.

Access to the very small camera/buttons is another consideration; the wireless remotes frequently fail, so having hands-on access is necessary. That might be tough in a "built in" system.

Back to the original point of RSL or not, most of my rigs do not have an RSL; I'm slowly getting them converted (3 now have RSL). I've changed my opinion as my gear selection for camera jumps has changed. Other than demos and specialty camera jumps, I can't see a viable reason to not have an RSL.

[chuckakers 370]

DSE

Quote

Kind of wonder why no one has made a specialty box of even a helmet that incorporates the Go Pro directly into it.

Cost of designing/manufacturing a helmet that locks the user into a single camera when there are so many choices comes to mind? It's one thing to print/rapid proto a small part that might be snag resistant, and quite another to develop molds for a helmet that might be outdated in September. I'd not want to take the risk.

Access to the very small camera/buttons is another consideration; the wireless remotes frequently fail, so having hands-on access is necessary. That might be tough in a "built in" system.

Back to the original point of RSL or not, most of my rigs do not have an RSL; I'm slowly getting them converted (3 now have RSL). I've changed my opinion as my gear selection for camera jumps has changed. Other than demos and specialty camera jumps, I can't see a viable reason to not have an RSL.

You're certainly right on the camera box. It's tough to justify the cost of R&D selling to such a small market. One might think the guys at Go Pro would work on something that would do the job across many applications.

Couldn't agree more on the RSL, bro. My new Curv is RSL equipped. It's the first rig in my 29 years of jumping to have one and I've become an advocate.

I also find it interesting that there are holdouts on the RSL thing. The stats clearly demonstrate over and over that history is against them.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DcloudZ 0]

JohnMitchell

***Why not use or have an RSL connected?

Because it wasn't cool or considered necessary, because other experienced jumpers didn't use RSL's.
Because for old timers, RSL's were something optional, that gear didn't have unless you special ordered it.
Because you used to be expected to pull both handles yourself or die, and accepted that.
Because you believed you should try to deploy parachutes when stable for the best results.
Because you want the choice of either pulling the reserve immediately, or taking a delay to get more stable.

Right on the $$$. False pride and over confidence, 2 big killers. I feel most people should use an RSL. I heard one very experienced, very high performance jumper stating all wingsuiters should use RSL's. I was surprised but pleased. There's a lot of dead jumpers that would have been saved by an RSL.

Want to be stable when your reserve deploys? Try putting your feet on your butt and arching when you chop. Not many people do.

That's a very good point John. Nobody ever taught me that, I read that here on DZ.com. Luckily when I did my first cutaway it was almost instinct and allowed for a perfect on heading opening of the reserve following a spinning line-twist malfunction.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[chuckakers 370]

DcloudZ

Want to be stable when your reserve deploys? Try putting your feet on your butt and arching when you chop. Not many people do.

That's a very good point John. Nobody ever taught me that, I read that here on DZ.com. Luckily when I did my first cutaway it was almost instinct and allowed for a perfect on heading opening of the reserve following a spinning line-twist malfunction.

Quote

Never taught to arch after a chop? That's pretty mind boggling. Gotta say, I would really question the quality of training on that one.

Trying to maintain or regain stability after cutting away is one of the most basic and important techniques to promote a good reserve deployment. In fact, this is the first I have ever heard of it being omitted from the FJC or ongoing training.

I know I'm old school and haven't been part of the student training process in more than a decade, but I would really be surprised if the practice of teaching arching with a chop is being omitted on a wide-scale basis.

Of course there's always the SIM. From Section 4 - First Jump Course....

PARTIAL
MALFUNCTION
Note: On single-operation systems, pulling the reserve ripcord releases
the main canopy first before deploying the reserve. Partial malfunction
procedures for a single-operation system (SOS) are the same as for a
total malfunction.
1. Check altitude.
2. Return to the arch position.
3. Ripcord systems only: Discard the main ripcord.
4. Locate and grasp the cutaway handle.
5. Locate the reserve ripcord handle.
6. Pull the cutaway handle until no lower
than 1,000 feet.
7. Pull the reserve ripcord handle immediately after
cutting away or by 1,000 feet, regardless of stability,
to initiate reserve deployment.
8. Arch and check over the right shoulder for reserve pilot
chute deployment.
9. Cut away above 1,000 feet.
a. If a malfunction procedure has not resolved the
problem by then, deploy the reserve (requires a
cutaway with an SOS system).
b. In the event of any malfunction and regardless of
the planned procedure or equipment, the reserve
ripcord must be pulled by no lower than
1,000 feet.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[SoCalJumper 0]

DSE

This is a relevant video.

I don't like this video, it seems suspect to me.

A GoPro is going to break at the mount. I know a lot of low time belly fliers who've already had to replace GoPro's knocked off their heads in freefall due to simply bumping each other.

[JohnMitchell 14]

DcloudZ

That's a very good point John. Nobody ever taught me that, I read that here on DZ.com. Luckily when I did my first cutaway it was almost instinct and allowed for a perfect on heading opening of the reserve following a spinning line-twist malfunction.

May they all be so smooth. Glad to hear it went well.

[DSE 3]

SoCalJumper

***

This is a relevant video.

I don't like this video, it seems suspect to me.

A GoPro is going to break at the mount. I know a lot of low time belly fliers who've already had to replace GoPro's knocked off their heads in freefall due to simply bumping each other.

If you find the video suspect (I don't), why not borrow a pull-test scale from a rigger, gather up a few mounts, and see what you can come up with.
You can also see my Vimeo channel where there are two bridle entanglements during wingsuit rodeos. In neither case did the camera break off at the mount.
If there are "a lot of people that have had theirs knocked off in freefall", how is it that we're not hearing about those people from anyone?

Helmet surfaces vary. Mounting skills vary. Air temperature may play a role. VRB that isn't mounted correctly can give way. VRB that is mounted correctly won't give much at all.
Are you prepared to gamble on the variables?

[SoCalJumper 0]

DSE

If there are "a lot of people that have had theirs knocked off in freefall", how is it that we're not hearing about those people from anyone?

A number of reasons. dropzone.com isn't the clearing house of information it once was? Once they do get knocked off they are often not found.

DSE

Are you prepared to gamble on the variables?

I do every jump I make no different than you.

I'm not going to debate it with you. I expressed my opinion and you're not going to change it.

I bet a person could walk around a DZ and knock them off peoples helmets quite easily if they wanted to. I haven't heard or seen that either. I'll not borrow a riggers scale but suggest you do that yourself and inform us of the results since you're the authority on the matter. And since it is after all your pet peeve I think you'd enjoy it.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I bet a person could walk around a DZ and knock them off peoples helmets quite easily if they wanted to. I haven't heard or seen that either. I'll not borrow a riggers scale but suggest you do that yourself and inform us of the results since you're the authority on the matter. And since it is after all your pet peeve I think you'd enjoy it.

1st ~ Ok, I'll take that bet, let me know how you do.

2nd ~ pull scale - he already has done it, he's trying to gracefully let you prove it to yourself...that way your opinion may change once you have 1st hand actual experience with what you're talking about.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[chuckakers 370]

DSE

******

This is a relevant video.

I don't like this video, it seems suspect to me.

A GoPro is going to break at the mount. I know a lot of low time belly fliers who've already had to replace GoPro's knocked off their heads in freefall due to simply bumping each other.

If you find the video suspect (I don't), why not borrow a pull-test scale from a rigger, gather up a few mounts, and see what you can come up with.
You can also see my Vimeo channel where there are two bridle entanglements during wingsuit rodeos. In neither case did the camera break off at the mount.
If there are "a lot of people that have had theirs knocked off in freefall", how is it that we're not hearing about those people from anyone?

Helmet surfaces vary. Mounting skills vary. Air temperature may play a role. VRB that isn't mounted correctly can give way. VRB that is mounted correctly won't give much at all.
Are you prepared to gamble on the variables?

I lost a Go Pro from a broken mount. One of the rails on the helmet side of the system - the part that the squeeze clip slides into - gave way. I think the normal bumps we put them through probably weaken the plastic until just a minor bump causes it to fail. In my case I barely tapped it during climb-out and away it went.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jtiflyer 0]

tbrown

If you do a lot of CRW (CF) or have cameras on your helmet, I can see a reasonable excuse not to use a RSL / MARD system.

As a camera/video flyer for a vast majority of my time in this sport, there is no reason why you don't want a MARD or RSL. My last 2 reserve rides were spinning velos on rigs with skyhooks. Cutaway and reserve opened with no line twists at all. Make no mistake, snag points are a much larger threat than a RSL.

[chuckakers 370]

jtiflyer

***If you do a lot of CRW (CF) or have cameras on your helmet, I can see a reasonable excuse not to use a RSL / MARD system.

As a camera/video flyer for a vast majority of my time in this sport, there is no reason why you don't want a MARD or RSL. My last 2 reserve rides were spinning velos on rigs with skyhooks. Cutaway and reserve opened with no line twists at all. Make no mistake, snag points are a much larger threat than a RSL.

I don't understand your comment. It sounds like you first say it's ok to use a MARD or RSL with video gear on, then you say snags are a bigger threat than the use of an RSL. On the latter, the statement doesn't even seem to make sense.

I'm not sure if those are conflicting statements, complimenting statements, or I simply don't get what you're saying.

Please explain. Thanks.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[airtwardo 6]

jtiflyer

***If you do a lot of CRW (CF) or have cameras on your helmet, I can see a reasonable excuse not to use a RSL / MARD system.

As a camera/video flyer for a vast majority of my time in this sport, there is no reason why you don't want a MARD or RSL. My last 2 reserve rides were spinning velos on rigs with skyhooks. Cutaway and reserve opened with no line twists at all. Make no mistake, snag points are a much larger threat than a RSL.


Either you didn't understand the comment you answered - or I don't understand yours...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DSE 3]

Over time, sunlight also weakens the clip arms.
I'm aware of one GoPro that ended up on a car hood after having been on an aircraft every day for several weeks.

[Zlew 0]

I think it is important to distinguish the 2 (RSL/MARD)

For the vast majority of jumpers, I think a MARD and or RSL is the way to go. Statistically it is pretty well established that having one is better than not having one...

After doing lots of research and video review, I choose to fly camera WITH a skyhook on my rig that is capable of having it....and WITHOUT an RSL on my rig that is not MARD compatible.

To the snag argument- the way things deploy in spinning malfunctions can be very very different between an RSL (which many times fires the PC/bag/lines etc. close enough to contact the jumper as low as under the arm, and/or around the helmet area), and a MARD which tends to keep everything pretty well clear of your body on breakaway. Jumping camera, and high performance canopies...that's important to me. Also, flying outside video gives me some other considerations (like higher pull altitude) to factor into the that decision making process for me. That is the decision I've made, and it isn't for everyone. I hope to replace my Non-RSL rig in the next year, and the replacement will have a Skyhook.

[airtwardo 6]

DSE

Over time, sunlight also weakens the clip arms.
I'm aware of one GoPro that ended up on a car hood after having been on an aircraft every day for several weeks.

I tend to think the rapid cycles of Hot & Cold have more of an effect...IIRC - Many if not most manufacturers of plastics seem to address the UV factor for products that will be exposed to a lot of it.

How much sunlight does one on a helmet really see? Like all MY gear, I try to keep it in the shade as much as possible...OTOH - not much you can do about going from 99 degrees F to 40 then back to 99 in relatives quick cycle times.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[chuckakers 370]

airtwardo

***Over time, sunlight also weakens the clip arms.
I'm aware of one GoPro that ended up on a car hood after having been on an aircraft every day for several weeks.

I tend to think the rapid cycles of Hot & Cold have more of an effect...IIRC - Many if not most manufacturers of plastics seem to address the UV factor for products that will be exposed to a lot of it.

How much sunlight does one on a helmet really see? Like all MY gear, I try to keep it in the shade as much as possible...OTOH - not much you can do about going from 99 degrees F to 40 then back to 99 in relatives quick cycle times.

Interesting takes from both of you guys - or "Y'all" as we like to say.

Gotta say, I really appreciate both of your inputs on so many topics. I learn from Y'all's posts and they are always food for thought.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jtiflyer 0]

ok to clear things up.

I believe MARD and RSL are a good thing for camera flyers, and I jump with a skyhook.

I believe a Main tangling up with a helmet is a much greater threat than the risk of a RSL or MARD leading to a reserve entanglement.

My last 2 reserve rides were spinning line twists under velocities. I was using vector containers equipped with skyhooks. The cutaway and reserve opening were as planned and line twist free.

[GoHuskers 0]

DSE

******

This is a relevant video.

A GoPro is going to break at the mount. I know a lot of low time belly fliers who've already had to replace GoPro's knocked off their heads in freefall due to simply bumping each other.

If there are "a lot of people that have had theirs knocked off in freefall", how is it that we're not hearing about those people from anyone?

I know of at least 4 at my DZ. One of which was attributed to not taking the time to ensure the clip arms clicked into place and it wasn't secured with the anti-vibration rubber piece. The camera was found and the camera and mount both worked fine after landing in a plowed field.

[airtwardo 6]

jtiflyer

ok to clear things up.

I believe MARD and RSL are a good thing for camera flyers, and I jump with a skyhook.

I believe a Main tangling up with a helmet is a much greater threat than the risk of a RSL or MARD leading to a reserve entanglement.

My last 2 reserve rides were spinning line twists under velocities. I was using vector containers equipped with skyhooks. The cutaway and reserve opening were as planned and line twist free.

I think the point that was being made - is yes a MAIN entanglement is a viable concern with a camera helmet...IF one were to cut away with lines around a camera, having a reserve go into that is really rolling the dice.

That's why some who jump cameras elect not to have an RSL or MARD hooked up...Has nothing to do with spinning.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[chuckakers 370]

jtiflyer

ok to clear things up.

I believe MARD and RSL are a good thing for camera flyers, and I jump with a skyhook.

I believe a Main tangling up with a helmet is a much greater threat than the risk of a RSL or MARD leading to a reserve entanglement.

Which is what didn't make sense to me in your earlier post and still doesn't. The whole point behind leaving a secondary reserve deployment system disconnected while jumping full-size camera gear is that the main can snag the gear during a cutaway, causing a reserve deployment with the main still attached to the jumper.

The possibility of a main/reserve entanglement under those circumstances is precisely why camera flyers don't typical use MARD's or RSL's.

Either we (myself and the others here who are questioning your comments) don't correctly understand your point, or we do understand you correctly and you don't comprehend the risk we are pointing out.

To be fair to you, can you again try to explain in such a way that we can all be clear about your position? Maybe you could describe a scenario that would exemplify your point.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jtiflyer 0]

chuckakers

Which is what didn't make sense to me in your earlier post and still doesn't. The whole point behind leaving a secondary reserve deployment system disconnected while jumping full-size camera gear is that the main can snag the gear during a cutaway, causing a reserve deployment with the main still attached to the jumper.

The possibility of a main/reserve entanglement under those circumstances is precisely why camera flyers don't typical use MARD's or RSL's.

Either we (myself and the others here who are questioning your comments) don't correctly understand your point, or we do understand you correctly and you don't comprehend the risk we are pointing out.

To be fair to you, can you again try to explain in such a way that we can all be clear about your position? Maybe you could describe a scenario that would exemplify your point.

Ok I think we are all considering different scenarios here. My biggest fear is deploying my main, and having it entangle my helmet. I jump a velo loaded at 2.2-2.3. If my canopy isnt symmetrical I am going on a ride quickly. If my helmet is tied up, I know I have to cut the helmet away before cutting away the main. Having your head pinned by entanglement sucks cause I have been through it before (I caused the snag kicking out of line twists on a crossfire and it hooked my ring sight).

What I am not concerned with is entangling my main risers or lines with my helmet when I am already experiencing a problem. With my last 2 cutaways I had line twists pretty far down bringing the risers very close to my ears. By simply looking at my feet spinning on the horizon, I bring my chin down towards my chest bringing the helmet clear of the risers. With the centrifugal force building, when you cutaway you launch a decent distance from the main, which clears the risers very quickly. With the reserve being extracted away from you, the odds of the 2" reserve risers or the lines entangling are not something I am concerning myself with.