Jumper Integrity & Logbook Veracity

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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No mention of any required license by either. I ask again, where does it say not night tandems? For that matter where does it say AFF can't be done at night?


Sparky

SIM
3-1
E.
2. Persons holding a USPA B license are able to exercise all privileges of an A-license holder, perform night jumps, with 100 jumps are eligible for the USPA Coach Rating, and must have-

[billvon 2,380]

>That doesn't revoke any privileges, does it?

That's up to the DZO. The certification organization (USPA) just informs them what level of competence they have demonstrated.

>My Mooney has a "maximum demonstrated crosswind component"
>of 13kt. Doesn't mean it can't be landed in a 15kt crosswind.

Right. That's up to the pilot. All the manufacturer did was inform you of what level of performance the aircraft has demonstrated.

[headoverheels 291]

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How about adding night water landings as a D requirement?

Some 1st jump students have done that -- they closed their eyes and pissed in their pants.

[airtwardo 6]

Can you kill and maim other jumpers on, let's say, 250 of those jumps and still qualify for the D license?



***

Not sure, I know that declaring the intentional maiming prior to exit... counts toward earning an AFFI.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[buff 0]

@Spot

You forgot to mention a night water landing in a wingsuit.

When I was out your way, I exited over "Pac-Man" and flew belly. That lake was a long way off but some of your wingsuiters could have probably made it out and back.

Is there any special training for getting out of that wingsuit when in the water since many have the legstraps inside?

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[popsjumper 2]

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@Spot

You forgot to mention a night water landing in a wingsuit.

When I was out your way, I exited over "Pac-Man" and flew belly. That lake was a long way off but some of your wingsuiters could have probably made it out and back.

Is there any special training for getting out of that wingsuit when in the water since many have the legstraps inside?

Yes. The instructions on what to do are printed right there on the floatation device.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[danielcroft 2]

After all this, I don't actually understand why the night jumps would be removed? Maybe I just lost track of the discussion here but "because they serve no purpose" might get the "then what's the difference" response?

If you're going to remove night jumps from the D license requirements, what's the point of the D license at all that can't be satisfied by looking at someone's log book to see that they have 500 jumps?

What rights are granted to a D license holder which could be tested/verified with the requirements of the D license that aren't already included?

[kallend 1,620]

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>My Mooney has a "maximum demonstrated crosswind component"
>of 13kt. Doesn't mean it can't be landed in a 15kt crosswind.

Right. That's up to the pilot. All the manufacturer did was inform you of what level of performance the aircraft has demonstrated.

There is, of course, an essential difference. My Mooney has been demonstrated to land in a 13kt crosswind with no damage or injury. Making a night jump per the "D" license requirement doesn't demonstrate any such thing. One of the several reasons that the requirement is a farce.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[topdocker 0]

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And with 6500' mountains very close to the DZ, as well as the Great Salt Lake and its supporting ponds, it's equally as likely that an "after sunset" exit and water landing are going to occur.
How about adding night water landings as a D requirement?

i'll bring it up at the next BOD meeting!

top

Jump more, post less!

[kallend 1,620]

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After all this, I don't actually understand why the night jumps would be removed? Maybe I just lost track of the discussion here but "because they serve no purpose" might get the "then what's the difference" response?

I can think of hundreds of things that serve no purpose. Maybe they should all be added to the license requirements - after all, "what's the difference"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mjosparky 3]

Actually, it is in the BSR’s, 2-1. E-9

Sparky

Thanks Tim and Matt.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kallend 1,620]

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Can you kill and maim other jumpers on, let's say, 250 of those jumps and still qualify for the D license?



***

Not sure, I know that declaring the intentional maiming prior to exit... counts toward earning an AFFI.

Sounds more like a PRO Rating thing to me.

Not sure I'd be getting on a load with anyone that had already kiilled or maimed 249 other people.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,620]

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>That doesn't revoke any privileges, does it?

That's up to the DZO. The certification organization (USPA) just informs them what level of competence they have demonstrated.

.

A DZO can revoke privileges all the way to not letting you jump at all, regardless of any license you may or may not hold, so that's not pertinent to this discussion.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airtwardo 6]

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Can you kill and maim other jumpers on, let's say, 250 of those jumps and still qualify for the D license?



***

Not sure, I know that declaring the intentional maiming prior to exit... counts toward earning an AFFI.

Sounds more like a PRO Rating thing to me.

Not sure I'd be getting on a load with anyone that had already kiilled or maimed 249 other people.

Meh ~ here in Texas we tend to overlook low numbers and give the underachievers a chance, then we bus 'em up north for the summer.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skybill 18]

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And with 6500' mountains very close to the DZ, as well as the Great Salt Lake and its supporting ponds, it's equally as likely that an "after sunset" exit and water landing are going to occur.
How about adding night water landings as a D requirement?

Hi DSE,
Very interesting! An old proceedure for water ldgs "used" to be to un hook from your harness and drop into the water from a few feet above. Are you good at judging your height above the ground/water?? A long time ago some paratroops were doing a night jump and some of them saw what they thought was a river or streem but was a runway, dropped out of their harness and crunch!@! Afterward, their procedure got changed to wait till you hit the water!! Like I said, this was a long time ago. As for a requirement for a license?? At this point, who cares??

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[Andy_Copland 0]

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Perhaps my search strategies are weak. I can’t find a discussion about this.

I have come to the conclusion that many jumpers lack the integrity to log their jumps accurately.

++ I know of a jumper who admitted to falsifying log entries to show night jumps in order to qualify for a D-license.

++ I know of jumpers who have falsified many log entries to show sufficient 2m accuracy jumps for a C-license.

I suspect all sorts of other “pencil whipping” or “gun decking” occurs in logbooks every day.

Particularly sad to me is the lack of any sense of shame by these folks. There seems to be a complete lack of a sense of personal integrity. Integrity seems to have been replaced with a sense of “It is only a logbook, it doesn’t really matter.” The concept of telling the truth for its own sake seems lost.

Why do I care? I care only because decisions are sometimes made on the basis of logbooks. Some of these decisions are inconsequential, some have potential negative consequences for the jumper, some have potential negative consequences for OTHERS who will rely on the belief that the jumper has the skills reflected in his or her logbook.

I guess that this is just another manifestation of the unrestrained selfish/narcissistic attitudes and behavior that I note in far too many skydivers. Fortunately, there are many jumpers who demonstrate sound character, despite the lack of it around them.

I dont log, haven't since about jump 50. I was using a pro track until that got booted off my skull in freefall. If anything i have more jumps than i claim.

Still, no one questions you if you just do it. If anyone does question me i just bullshit them and act offended.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[DSE 3]

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Still, no one questions you if you just do it. If anyone does question me i just bullshit them and act offended.

And that probably works very well. We had a guy leave our DZ with 1600 jumps. Showed up on DZ.com and at another DZ with 4K jumps less than a year later. And...who cares?

[Andy_Copland 0]

I care about that dude, he was probably really cool.

friday night lacks humour, holy shit

But yea, it seriously does work, at all DZ's i've went to. Im a people person with jedi mind trick powers.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[billvon 2,380]

>My Mooney has been demonstrated to land in a 13kt crosswind with
>no damage or injury.

1) Plenty of Mooneys have been landed in stronger crosswinds with no damage or injury.

2) Plenty of Mooneys have been crashed in weaker crosswinds.

The demonstrated crosswind component is not a guarantee that the plane will always land OK when the crosswind component is less than that. It's not a guarantee that the plane will crash if you land with a stronger crosswind component. It's just a test the manufacturer did to say "we tried this. Nothing bad happened at 13kts crosswind component."

>Making a night jump per the "D" license requirement doesn't
>demonstrate any such thing.

It demonstrates that:

the jumper has made two night jumps following the advice of an S+TA
the jumper has done RW on at least one of them
the jumper has had night jump training from a USPA instructor

That, of course, does not guarantee they won't kill themselves on the very next night jump. But if you are an RW organizer organizing a 10-way night jump - or a boogie organizer who knows that they will be pushing sunset most days - you might appreciate knowing who has night jump experience and who does not.

[champu 1]

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How about adding night water landings as a D requirement?

Better yet, how about you have to crash your canopy into the ground and sustain an injury (but not die, of course) before getting a D. And then we could make the D-license a requirement to jump a wing loading in excess of 1:1. (only 80% kidding here...)

To the original topic, I got a protrack to help in keeping track of jumps and freefall time back when I had 90-something jumps. I copied information to my log-book and put a short description down. Around 1300 jumps or so I switched to logging days of jumping, and I would simply list the jump range and sum up the day (e.g. "such and such team training: 11-E-B-10, C-20-1, etc.") and I'm still using that same logbook.

From a practical standpoint, it helps to have a reminder of what you've done if you want to get better at things. Also, I use it to keep track of gear maintenance (How many jumps do I have on this line set? this pilot chute? these risers?) Neither of these have anything to do with proving anything to anyone else.

[popsjumper 2]

Jumpers with integrity are in the minority.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kallend 1,620]

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But if you are an XXXX organizer organizing a XXXX - or a boogie organizer who knows that they will be doing XXXX most days - you might appreciate knowing who has XXXX experience and who does not.

So insert any skill or discipline you like (100-way, CRW, pond swooping, 10-way speedstar, wingsuit) for XXXX and that justifies it being a license requirement?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

Well, my point was just that when people try to figure out whether someone has a certain skill set before they're allowed on a jump it rarely involves checking what license they have or physically examining their log book.

I wasn't always famous (tongue in cheek) and back then when I'd ask to be on a jump at a boogie or something the organizer would just ask me how many jumps I had and I would tell them, no logbook or license check involved. And if you want to go on something bigger or a demo or something and the organizer doesn't know you, you'll fair much better giving them a reference than busting out the old skylog and shoving it under their noses. This is irrespective of how many real or fake skydives you've done.