Banning swooping? (was: Fatality Canopy Piloting World Cup)

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Dear old timers of the sport (That's right, I said old timers Much respect though),

I apologize on behalf of what appears to be the 95% of my generations of jumpers who have their heads way up their asses. We're not all like this, I swear! Some of us do recognize that we have less than 7 full years in the sport and aren't truly qualified to make authoritative commentary on trends in the sport over a decade ago.

Please don't hold judgment against all of us! Not all of us are this bad

Sincerely,
Simon Bones

Nice Simon.

One idea that has not been brought up in this thread is the fatality rate at FAI or (any nation) nationals compared to non-competitor fatality rate.
Based only on my IIRC memory, the absolute number of fatalities at comps is very low.
It's not zero. I tend to think the fatality rate is, on average, nearly the same fatality rate as the 'fun jumper' crowd.
IOW, competitors do not have super powers that the rest of the mere mortals don't have.
Competitors make the same kind of mistakes as the average Joe jumper.
Those mistakes include mis-swoops, mis-rigging, canopy collisions, mid-air freefall collisions, biffed landings etc.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[JohanW 0]

Quote

How many swoopers have died in competition? Prior to this Russian fellow the last one was Marianne and she did not die as the result of a swoop. She died because of a double mal which could be traced to using a highly loaded main and a highly loaded reserve coupled with wearing a weight belt that could not be released. In fact correct me if I am wrong, but I believe only three people have ever died while in a swoop competition and this Russian fellow is the first one to die while actually swooping through the entry gates (the other two had problems before they could even set up their swoop).

Would this one count? Training, not competition, but he was swooping the entry gates of the competition course.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[murps2000 86]

...and progress in leaps and bounces.***

Progression in leaps is great, but not progression in bounces. just sayin

Anyway, don't stop. Keep it coming.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I stand corrected, looks there are have been four deaths in competitive swooping. Still not that large of a number when you consider there has to be 1000 (may be more) extremely talented swoopers across the world who have competed in fairly high level swoop comps at some point in time.

If there is still a problem with people swooping on regular loads then by all means we need to segregate the swoopers from every one else by either time, distance or both. But just because one fellow made a mistake at this swoop comp does not justify banning all swoop competitions. Despite what some dizzy.dot.commers may be saying, the vast majority of competitive swoopers are NOT killing themselves.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

(like me again! ME ME ME)

Trust me there is only one person impressed with you. I might even come out of retirement to be on your ash dive.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Halfpastniner 0]

Quote

Quote

(like me again! ME ME ME)

Trust me there is only one person impressed with you. I might even come out of retirement to be on your ash dive.

Sparky

I am impressed with andy. Maybe just stay in retirement?

Maybe you have been away enough to lose your sense of humor. Half of what he posted was copied from straight from dorkzonehero (you are a dorkzonehero btw) and the other half pure English bullshit!

BASE 1384

[Jazzthieve 0]

Quote

Quote

Last time I checked, in skydiving, alot can change in such a timeframe. As an example, swooping as we know it today, did not exist 12 years ago.

Dear old timers of the sport (That's right, I said old timers Much respect though),

I apologize on behalf of what appears to be the 95% of my generations of jumpers who have their heads way up their asses. We're not all like this, I swear! Some of us do recognize that we have less than 7 full years in the sport and aren't truly qualified to make authoritative commentary on trends in the sport over a decade ago.

Please don't hold judgment against all of us! Not all of us are this bad

Sincerely,
Simon Bones

I'd suggest you stay at the discussion instead of making weak personal attacks . I know I haven't been as long in the sport but that doesn't mean I know nothing about it's history. But when 'old timers' talk to me about swooping with stilettos, toggle whipping it, I'd consider that alot different then what's going on today.

[Andy_Copland 0]

Sorry, you can't come on my ashdive. There will be NO baton passing in balloon suits thank you very please.

I kid, anyone and everyone is welcome on my ashdive (this can be a direct quote if ever needed), just not swoopers. I dont want anyone hooking it in on my ashdive and having to send load 2 up. The day should be about me, not some thunder stealing canopy jockey who biffed in and steals my show.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[billeisele 122]

Dear old timers of the sport (That's right, I said old timers Much respect though),

I apologize on behalf of what appears to be the 95% of my generations of jumpers who have their heads way up their asses. We're not all like this, I swear! Some of us do recognize that we have less than 7 full years in the sport and aren't truly qualified to make authoritative commentary on trends in the sport over a decade ago.

Please don't hold judgment against all of us! Not all of us are this bad

Sincerely,
Simon Bones

Good one Simon. I don't care if anyone wants to swoop. With my 32 years in the sport I don't know crap about swooping, except the potential outcome. My only advice will be don't hurt me or my friends, and get some health insurance.

Please do it away from me and in the alternate landing area so the spectators can't see the carnage. Carry-on, have fun, and don't ask me for money when you are in the hospital. But, and most importantly, stop killing other people. One of the best skydivers I know/knew killed someone that I respected. That was stupid and wreckless.

Oh, and don't get pissed off if you swoop near me and I get in your face, cut away your main, and pull your reserve.

Simon these comments are not directed at you, just the subject in general.

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

I don't think statistics that are almost 12 years old can be considered valid for todays world of skydiving.

Almost 12 years! That's nearly more than an eternity.

Last time I checked, in skydiving, alot can change in such a timeframe. As an example, swooping as we know it today, did not exist 12 years ago.

I'm quoting this before you change your mind...

What part of swooping didn't exist 12 years ago? Reminder: that was 97.

He said "swooping as we know it today". Yes a lot has changed in 12 years of swooping. If you can't see changes in swooping, swooping style, swooping technique, gear and ability, then you are somewhat shortsighted.

Swooping today is very different than is was 12 years ago.

[icevideot 0]

Quote

My only advice will be don't hurt me or my friends, and get some health insurance.

Quote

Nice one Bill.

The funny thing is I have always thought the same thing when I get talked into an old fashioned 10 way speed star.



You are right about keeping it out of the path of others but let's not forget the danger that can come from a toggle whipping 90 to save 50 feet of walking.

I love skydiving as well as landing fast. I am just now focusing on competitive swooping.

My four goals for the season are:
1) Don't get hurt
2) Don't scare the organizers
3) End the season better than I am (should be easy because I suck)
4) By the end I would like to be able to score in each event.

I don't think it needs to be banned as much as people who are not going to be in the top handful anyone need to realize it is not the end of the world to miss the gates.

It sucks to see people get hurt.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[billeisele 122]

Quote

Quote

My only advice will be don't hurt me or my friends, and get some health insurance.

Quote

Nice one Bill.

The funny thing is I have always thought the same thing when I get talked into an old fashioned 10 way speed star.



You are right about keeping it out of the path of others but let's not forget the danger that can come from a toggle whipping 90 to save 50 feet of walking.

I love skydiving as well as landing fast. I am just now focusing on competitive swooping.

My four goals for the season are:
1) Don't get hurt
2) Don't scare the organizers
3) End the season better than I am (should be easy because I suck)
4) By the end I would like to be able to score in each event.

I don't think it needs to be banned as much as people who are not going to be in the top handful anyone need to realize it is not the end of the world to miss the gates.

It sucks to see people get hurt.

agree, no need to ban, as much as I hate to see it or even say it - the activity is self-regulating

if we can find 10 people that know how to do a speed star lets go for it, great for days when the ceiling is low

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

My only advice will be don't hurt me or my friends, and get some health insurance.

Quote

Nice one Bill.

The funny thing is I have always thought the same thing when I get talked into an old fashioned 10 way speed star.



.

10-way GRRRR!!! But you aren't 10ft agl when doing a speedstar.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shropshire 0]

Andy ... every day is about you.... I know that cuz you told me.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Remster 24]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

I don't think statistics that are almost 12 years old can be considered valid for todays world of skydiving.

Almost 12 years! That's nearly more than an eternity.

Last time I checked, in skydiving, alot can change in such a timeframe. As an example, swooping as we know it today, did not exist 12 years ago.

I'm quoting this before you change your mind...

What part of swooping didn't exist 12 years ago? Reminder: that was 97.

He said "swooping as we know it today". Yes a lot has changed in 12 years of swooping. If you can't see changes in swooping, swooping style, swooping technique, gear and ability, then you are somewhat shortsighted.

Swooping today is very different than is was 12 years ago.

Which parts? The 720's? The crossbraced (and no, I'm not talking about the Excalibur. As I remember, the FX was coming out at that time)? The swooping down a course? Hitting gates? Front riser dives?

Really, you need to get more perspective. I am not saying that competitive swooping that we see today existed back then (nor did the OP I quoted by the way), but really, things have not changed THAT much. They have evolved: of course. They are completely different: BS.

Remster

[ianmdrennan 2]

Remi,

Sorry buddy, but (I believe) you are incorrect on this one. Swooping is entirely different than it was 5 years ago, let alone 12.

Pilots have a far better understanding of techniques (and 12 years ago people were pretty much just whipping it around with a toggle or riser), and how to apply those techniques.

If a pilot, today, can't see the difference, I would seriously encourage them to take a canopy class or seek to educate themselves about canopy piloting (not necessarily swooping).

Swooping, like any high speed sport (including skydiving) is very unforgiving of error. Believe it or not, most of the time these sort of incidents result in broken bones, bruised egos, etc and not fatalities.

I don't believe density altitude played a factor in this. As with ALL the injuries this comp has had (and it's been unusually high) - I believe it was summed up best earlier in the thread. One of the most important thing for a competitive canopy pilot to understand is this: It's ok to miss the gate and get a zero.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Remster 24]

Quote

Swooping is entirely different

Competitive swooping? No doubt.

But to say that swooping now has nothing to do with swooping then, I really think you are mistaking. Remember, this is about a trend in fatality under open canopies that was seen 12 years ago and stating that swooping now has nothing to do with swooping then. Dismissing the similarities is pretty short sighted.

Remster

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Sorry, you can't come on my ashdive. There will be NO baton passing in balloon suits thank you very please.

I kid, anyone and everyone is welcome on my ashdive (this can be a direct quote if ever needed), just not swoopers. I dont want anyone hooking it in on my ashdive and having to send load 2 up. The day should be about me, not some thunder stealing canopy jockey who biffed in and steals my show.

We're not giving you the Keith Richard's dad treatment we gave someone else though.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,394]

>Pilots have a far better understanding of techniques (and 12 years
>ago people were pretty much just whipping it around with a toggle or
>riser), and how to apply those techniques.

While I agree swooping has come a long way, I don't think people 12 years ago (1995) were just "whipping it around with a toggle or riser." At our DZ, we had a half dozen serious swoopers and many other less serious types. We referred to one less serious guy as "a toggle whipping yahoo" because that's how he landed, and despite advice from several more experienced jumpers on the use of front riser/harness turns, he didn't listen. He just had his own way of doing things.

Another guy was even worse, and several of us did everything we could to keep him from killing himself with his tiny canopy. Although we succeeded at that, we didn't succeed 100%, and I don't think he will ever walk without a walker again.

In other words, it seems a lot like today in that respect.

The canopies of the day weren't very advanced - the Stiletto 97 was the standard of the day. But with that canopy, loaded at about 2 to 1, several people were getting very good under canopy. (I should point out that one of those people was NOT me - at that point my canopies were the decidedly low performance Sabre1 150 and Tri 135.)

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Swooping is entirely different

Competitive swooping? No doubt.

But to say that swooping now has nothing to do with swooping then, I really think you are mistaking. Remember, this is about a trend in fatality under open canopies that was seen 12 years ago and stating that swooping now has nothing to do with swooping then. Dismissing the similarities is pretty short sighted.

Nobody has stated this except you. Try re-reading the post.

[freeflyinfool 0]

Dear old timers of the sport (That's right, I said old timers Much respect though),

I apologize on behalf of what appears to be the 95% of my generations of jumpers who have their heads way up their asses. We're not all like this, I swear! Some of us do recognize that we have less than 7 full years in the sport and aren't truly qualified to make authoritative commentary on trends in the sport over a decade ago.

Please don't hold judgment against all of us! Not all of us are this bad

Sincerely,
Simon Bones

thanks, simon, for reminding me why i never come to this site... The majority of these people DO have their heads up their asses.
inexperienced immature idiots..

whoever says swooping is 'smart' progression in our sport, just look at the rising DeATH TOLL...

why is it that swooping appeals most to the 'rad cool guy type' ? these guys only die. or break themselves very badly.. and then make swooping seem alot worse than it would if only level headed people progressed in this line..

BASe shouldnt be a part of this discussion either.. different sport.. different set of idiots..

screw you guys.. i'm going home

edited to add a big F-U

[AggieDave 6]

When I look at Canopy Piloting today and compare it to the history of other disciplines in skydiving, I believe that we are in the "golden era" of swooping. I consider this to be like RW was in the 80s and FF in the early 2000's.

Before you hit reply, please read my explanation.

Over the past 15 years swooping has evolved in technology as well as technique. The sport has advanced from people trying to figure out how to turf surf at the end of a skydive using risers or toggles, to a point at which pilots are using electronic devices to have an altitude specific pattern. Using that pattern to get to their initiation point at the correct window of altitude and using more advanced techniques with in multi-rotational turns for some incredible speeds and distances.

Now comparing that to the evolution of RW. Think about what is the same in RW from 1989 to today. Much hasn't changed, but the technique was refined to incredible levels. With wind tunnel training, amateur 4-way teams are cranking out rounds at events like TSL that would have won competitions in the 80s. The top open teams are turning points in time that some would have thought completely impossible 20 years ago.

That advancement, that training and that technique has trickled down from the competitors to how we teach AFF students how to control their bodies in freefall.

Swooping is in the "golden age" because enough of the "black magic" of swooping has been refined out with understanding, technique and teaching. However, it hasn't been refined to the point to where swoop comps are decided by the centimeter. Much as competitive RW has evolved to.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[airtwardo 6]

I was conveying that I learned many years ago most of the low pull contest stories were just fairy tales.

Maybe some of those 'fairies had tails', but some of 'em walked the walk.

Probably depends on where & with whom you jumped.

Back when I was 'Bulletproof Stupid'... I knew more than a few that played with fate, pulling as often as not down in the dirty tripe digits.

I remember once thinking I was way outta my league after banging into the saddle at around 700, and watching Carl & Roger Nelson smoke on by me...still in a 2 way.

I know we got pretty damn good at spotting...ya HAD to be with such little canopy time!



~ But I digress;

As far as swooping goes...have at it fellas!

Friends and acquaintances on my 'circle of remembered' scorecard, would be considerably smaller if not for the swooping discipline...the cost/benefit numbers just don't add up for me.

It's beyond my interest to even begin to explore at any level, a necessary development of the skills needed to attempt it...

...I do however appreciate what it takes to do it right, and can watch all day long!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

And I guess you think you are cool and on the edge?

Alright Moses, i've had just about enough of your old fuddy duddy attitude. Why can't you be like Twardo? He makes me laugh and is old school cool. Albeit i suspect hes a jew. Not only can he land his canopy on a penny but he has his own variation on a swoop and chug. The swoop and coin pocket i think they call it.

We have 2 kinds of skydivers, those who when first jumping out a plane were pushing their personal limits so once they get their A they dont really progress so fast. Just falling is enough for them. Then the GoFast drinkers, the pot smokers and ones who listen to music far too loud; who cake walk AFF (me) and get into cool and edgy shit (me again) and progress in leaps and bounces.

I suspect that back when it was a "sport" that you were in the first group i described. Now you see us young rock stars coming up you think your voice is the most relevant? Humbug i say, humbug.

Listen to your elders? Fuck that, listen to anyone with common sense and that person can be a 200 jump wonder (like me again! ME ME ME) or a 200 year old round jumper.

Was it you that made that T-shirt i hate so much? "Most sports take one ball, mine takes both!" Reeks of cheese, like this thread.

Edit: SO YES I BLOODY WELL DO THINK THAT. AND THE WHUFFOS ARE IMPRESSED WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. Infact im doing way more for this sport than anyone, USPA medal for me i say for public relations.

...and it's just such whippersnapper attitudes that exemplify the pussification of the sport we 'old timers' loved, and miss so much!

Gone are the days that yes, ya could surely die dramatically doing something gloriously dumb in the sky, but gettin' 'hurt' meant a nasty cut from one of those sharp beer can tabs that were always laying all over the place.

Can't believe how these days beer runs are replaced by roadtrips for band-aids and blow-up casts.

You kids can't even go IN right!

We did have like you said 'two kinds of skydivers' back then ~ living and dead.

Oh yeah junior that's right, the hardcore dayz...back when men were men, the acid was pure and the bambulance never left in a big hurry, with those freakin' blinky lights on.

These days can't swing a dead cat without hitting 2 or 3 guys limping around the packin' area while spitting out 'poor me' tales that always include something about 720's and corner digging...boofuckingwho!

Back in the day...'dive loops' were the side strings on the bottom half of some blond bimbo's bikini.
~Took me damn near 20 minutes to figure out what the fuck some punk rocker on crutches with a red 'Go Fast' got milk mustache was talkin' about! well no shit pinhead...what say next time stay ya off the front risers there Hop-a-Long!

Just land the gawdang thing in a way so's ya can do it again, hopefully stay out the hospital and Hell, who knows... maybe pay some taxes!



...and WTF...??..Cake walk through AFF???



Why if you board short wearin', spike hair gellin', pink gear jumpin' spoiled lil' brats ever got more than elbow deep into the asshole of the beast, you'd be Sumo slammed into the realization that the path was blazed and black-topped for your comfort & ease by a generation of jumpers firmly believing there's no such thing as 'automatic openers' or TOO MUCH VELCRO.

The reason we made the damn thing easy enough for ya to cake walk through is because we did the math, between the booze the drugs and the gutter sluts we were gang bangin' after hours out in the peas.
...we figured the Skydiving version of generation next would either be sporting too many fingers or too little brains to keep 'our' sport alive, you better thank GOD we took the time to it dumb it up, because I'm here to tell ya ~ ~ though clearly much has changed around here, it ain't the gloves!

So go ahead Skippy, shun the wisdom and choose not to follow the path of righteousness and safe travel...instead blindly continue to toggle whip your ever decreasing numbers, natural selection will as always prevail.

With age comes experience, knowledge and understanding, we can see now where we went wrong...we watch feigning interest, - and with few real expectations, we wait.

We know eventually all the ponds will be drained, the snot-rag sized canopies will go the way of the T-bow and the sport's evolution will take still a different direction.

Next time we won't make it so easy for the N00bs, that way maybe they'll live a little longer...or at least lose the limp!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyjumpenfool 2]

I once did a handstand on the roof of a car going down I-94 at 60mph!!!! Hell, I've got no business preaching safety to anyone. But, I have reservations about the art and practice of swooping. Not because I want it banned or because I think it's unsafe. But, for one simple and clear reason...

Too many of my friends have died doing it!!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."