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JohnRich

Banning swooping? (was: Fatality Canopy Piloting World Cup)

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Regarding the so-called "low pull contests" an "playing chicken" I read about here,These were old wives tales that would pop up every once and awhile in the old days.



I disagree. I've seen it more than once at different dzs in my few years in the sport. And it was always by the old geezers and usually ended up with a two out/cypress fire.



Pulling at 2000 ft was the norm in the old days as I had to re-adjust to the higher altitudes we pull at today.

Some of the older guys still pull lower so I can see where with todays canopies you could on occasion get past the arming altitude of a cypress. If I pulled at 2K with my spectre I'm sure it would also get close since its a sniveler.

I was conveying that I learned many years ago most of the low pull contest stories were just fairy tales. And when a couple of geezers go low its simply a typical case of loosing track of time and altitude.



And I'm saying the instances I witnessed were low pull contests. They didn't outright admit it but you definitely knew by the sheepish looks and subtle comments made when they returned with reserve in hand. I think the low pull contests were/are more common that you want to believe.



I know several people that used to do the low pull contests, they don't have CYPRES's. Most of them pull higher now that they have more modern canopies.

I'm not in favor of banning swooping, but I understand where the people are coming from that want to. There are far too many people that want to control other peoples lives. I like skydiving because there is still a lot of freedom, for now at least.
"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.







No offence meant, but here is another example of speaking with authority on something you have little knowledge about.

Solid built 7 cell with a free-pack strap and a pullout pilot-chute approaching the size of what (gee) B.A.S.E. jumpers use...sit up and throw the same WAY every time, and you will be in the same PLACE every time it opens.


The point I was making is that, as far as I know, you cannot control the length of the opening once you commence the sequence. A packing error cannot easily be compensated for while you're waiting for the parachute to inflate.

I wasn't considering base jumping in my argument as the packing methods are different.

A swooper can pull out of his dive early if he needs to (and has the altitude). He can turn away from obstacles and adjust his flightpath as he goes. I don't think there's much you can do to speed up the opening of your canopy after you pull your PC.

Then you don't know enough because yes, you can control "the length of the opening once you commence the sequence." It doesn't necessarily have to be BASE jumping, but you can take a lesson in what BASE jumpers do to achieve the same thing. It's all just RAM air parachutes, no magic or fairy dust.

It is as simple as adjusting ones equipment and/or packing method. It doesn't have to be a BASE rig, BASE canopy, or anything in order to achieve the same results. You pack and use the equipment you want to achieve desired results. Most modern ZP skydiving equipment (the stuff you've probably only been exposed to) with big ZP sliders and closed off noses are meant to have long snively openings.

One can easily change the size of their slider, material of their slider, size of PC, type of bag/stows (if any), brake settings, etc. It's all a science, and BASE jumpers have really worked it out. It's just less needed/practical in skydiving (which is why you may not have had much exposure to it). Did you know that most original BASE jumping was done using skydiving canopies and containers?

Many people have AAD's that are designed to save their life at terminal velocity firing at 750ft, how does it do that?!?!? :o If a person wanted to take skydiving equipment and do the proper rigging to go win a low pull contest, it can be done controlled, accurately, predictably, and consistently. It's really not rocket science.

Now if it's smart to do so, that's a whole different discussion ;)

Siding with Mr Twardo here, and again, with no offense, "here is another example of speaking with authority on something you have little knowledge about".

Your statement here
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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.



Is very, VERY inaccurate. One could even make the argument that there is more control in precision and the altitude and time it would take for a canopy to open then there is in swooping.
108 way head down world record!!!
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wow ban swooping ? how many other sports will have to be banned with it then? motocross, formula one, horse races, climbing, gymnastics... the list goes on. everything is dangerous out there. we all take our lives into our own hands when we get up in the morning and drive to work. regardless of what you do. skydiving is PERCEIVED as particularly dangerous and with that swooping within the skydiving community. There are 1000s of people that have gone through the high performance canopy learning curve without any accidents, perhaps close calls but that happens with anything you do, driving cars are more dangerous.

In my opinion the top echelon of canopy piloting posses exceptional skills, its amazing to watch and its even more mind blowing to actually think about all the variables these minds are calculating to do what they do in a competition.

I would suggest more yellow/red cards during training and competitions. More required training jumps at the competition location and perhaps even a 10 safe jump threshold before a comp starts.

be safe out there.

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

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Like low pulling, I doubt someone can swoop 20 years and move on to another discipline without any serious bends, brakes or dents.

Maybe Scotty Carbone should start swooping :ph34r:

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I don't remember suggesting we should ban swooping. Can't seem to find anywhere in the thread that I say so either. Hmmm... You must know something I don't about what I say and don't say.

But we should bring back low pull contests! :)

108 way head down world record!!!
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I don't remember suggesting we should ban swooping. Can't seem to find anywhere in the thread that I say so either. Hmmm... You must know something I don't about what I say and don't say.

But we should bring back low pull contests! :)



The challenge has been laid down! Im in B|
Highest puller buys the beer.
1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

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Then you don't know enough because yes, you can control "the length of the opening once you commence the sequence." It doesn't necessarily have to be BASE jumping, but you can take a lesson in what BASE jumpers do to achieve the same thing. It's all just RAM air parachutes, no magic or fairy dust.

It is as simple as adjusting ones equipment and/or packing method. It doesn't have to be a BASE rig, BASE canopy, or anything in order to achieve the same results. You pack and use the equipment you want to achieve desired results. Most modern ZP skydiving equipment (the stuff you've probably only been exposed to) with big ZP sliders and closed off noses are meant to have long snively openings.

One can easily change the size of their slider, material of their slider, size of PC, type of bag/stows (if any), brake settings, etc. It's all a science, and BASE jumpers have really worked it out. It's just less needed/practical in skydiving (which is why you may not have had much exposure to it). Did you know that most original BASE jumping was done using skydiving canopies and containers?

Many people have AAD's that are designed to save their life at terminal velocity firing at 750ft, how does it do that?!?!? :o If a person wanted to take skydiving equipment and do the proper rigging to go win a low pull contest, it can be done controlled, accurately, predictably, and consistently. It's really not rocket science.



What can you do after you release your pilot chute to hurry up your opening?

You're saying it yourself. Aside from body position, everything you do to control the length of your opening happens before you put your rig on.

If you pull your PC late, there's no getting out of it.
If you start your initial dive for a swoop late, you can still abort.

It's the difference between dropping a dumb bomb and dropping a guided one.

Once you release it, you can't change the course of a dumb bomb. The course of a guided bomb can constantly be adjusted.

Control means you can adjust as you perform the move. It gives you a lot more leeway in terms of safety.
Dropzones are terrible places for inspiration. What does one think when one looks up for a sign only to see a bunch of people falling?

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Regarding the so-called "low pull contests" an "playing chicken" I read about here,These were old wives tales that would pop up every once and awhile in the old days.



I disagree. I've seen it more than once at different dzs in my few years in the sport. And it was always by the old geezers and usually ended up with a two out/cypress fire.


Pulling at 2000 ft was the norm in the old days as I had to re-adjust to the higher altitudes we pull at today.

Some of the older guys still pull lower so I can see where with todays canopies you could on occasion get past the arming altitude of a cypress. If I pulled at 2K with my spectre I'm sure it would also get close since its a sniveler.

I was conveying that I learned many years ago most of the low pull contest stories were just fairy tales. And when a couple of geezers go low its simply a typical case of loosing track of time and altitude.


And I'm saying the instances I witnessed were low pull contests. They didn't outright admit it but you definitely knew by the sheepish looks and subtle comments made when they returned with reserve in hand. I think the low pull contests were/are more common that you want to believe.


I hate to think so but there are all kinds. Just like swooping, those that do it know the risks and if they want to risk their lives I don't have a problem with it as long as they don't involve me.:)
You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

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(not replying to captain1976)

First off, I don't want to ban swooping.

I've seen lots of swooping, and it can be beautiful. With proper training and respect for the realities of it, it can be done fairly safely.

On the other hand, it can also be extremely dangerous when undertaken by those who are not properly prepared.

But I want to put that discussion aside for a moment,

What I want to discuss is the idea of competitions for swooping, their organization, and their execution.

As I see it, competitions as we know them today change the game in an extreme fashion.

People who talk about how safe swooping can be invariably mention that you can usually abort high enough to be safe when you realize you've made a mistake, and in non-competitive swooping, that seems to be true.

But with the pressure of competition as we do it today, if you decide to abort on a bad approach, you are penalized severely because you get a zero for the round.

To me, this seems to encourage a kind of risk taking that is an invitation to disaster. And I wonder if we can reorganize the competitions so as to not invite this sort of behavior.

Maybe we should change things so that you have a number of attempts, and you select a certain number of these to count. Bailing would not immediately cause you to lose because you get another attempt.

Of course, you can still find yourself "in the corner" when you've aborted enough times that all the remaining jumps must count, but I believe there must be a way to minimize even that risk if we try hard enough to come up with a new scheme for the organization of competition.

So, what about it? Does competition as we now perform it excessively add to the risk by exerting undue pressure to make every jump count?

Is it possible to reorganize our competitions so that we minimize the tendency to throw all caution to the wind?

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wow ban swooping ? how many other sports will have to be banned with it then?



From this month's "Parachutist" magazine: (see the red line on the attached graph)

What do you suggest we do about the escalating injury and death rate from high speed canopy landings?
The education that we're doing now doesn't seem to be working...

Should we implement wing-loading limits based upon experience?

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Look at all those AAD saves! I say we ban anyone who has an AAD fire while we are at it. Fucking pussies with their fancy gizmo's. Back in your day JohnRich, inventor of the parachute; they'd be scrambled eggs and jelly.
1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

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People who talk about how safe swooping can be invariably mention that you can usually abort high enough to be safe when you realize you've made a mistake, and in non-competitive swooping, that seems to be true.

But with the pressure of competition as we do it today, if you decide to abort on a bad approach, you are penalized severely because you get a zero for the round.

To me, this seems to encourage a kind of risk taking that is an invitation to disaster. And I wonder if we can reorganize the competitions so as to not invite this sort of behavior...



Great! That's the kind of creative thinking we need here.

Your idea is similar to what we do with freefall competition. Take RW, for example, where the exit altitude is 10,500 feet, which gives a 45 second freefall, but the working time for the competition is 35 seconds. Therefore, there is no advantage to going low for the sake of building some extra points. The competition rules are designed to cease scoring high enough to allow for safe opening altitudes.

Your idea seems to mimic that philosophy, and I like it. We need to come up with something that takes swooping out of the fringe "low pull contest" category, and puts it into the mainstream category.

And we need more than just USPA rules. We need a sea change in our culture. Instead of worshiping those who cheat death, and labeling them as "cool", instead, when they're screwing up we need to call 'em what they are: foolhardy people pushing the envelope too far, and making the sport, and all of us, look bad.

There's another controversial statement from me. But no, I won't go shoot myself for saying it.

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And we need more than just USPA rules. We need a sea change in our culture. Instead of worshiping those who cheat death, and labeling them as "cool", instead, when they screw up we need to call 'em what they are: foolhardy people pushing the envelope too far, and making the sport, and all of us, look bad.



Redbull would disagree and look at their mortality rate recently. When i go in i want a memorial video on youtube with 50,000 hits from skateboarding kids and the occasional jumper, honouring me as a fallen hero, death defying bad ass.

My footsteps will never fade, i shall never be remembered as fool hardy (well, to some boring fuckers i will) and my name shall be sung across the hangers of DZ's yet to be born.

Beowulf, Beowulf, Beowulf! I mean Andy.
1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

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I don't think statistics that are almost 12 years old can be considered valid for todays world of skydiving.



Those statistics reflect a change that has happened with the introduction of high performance canopies to the sport. I'm not saying we should all go back to jumping F-111 canopies loaded at 1.0, but we certainly need to do something.

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Is it possible to reorganize our competitions so that we minimize the tendency to throw all caution to the wind?



I am sorry Paul but you just do not understand the nature of the beast called "competition". Besides seasoned swoop competitors know when they have messed up and know taking a donut is better than the alternative. The problem lies in people new to competition may not have necessarily figured this out yet. I know one of my close calls in competitive swooping occurred when I tried to salvage a bad approach at the gates. Not only did I put my safety on the line, but I put the safety of a volunteer judge also on the line. Fortunately I pulled my head out of my ass and learned from this error and never repeated it. But unless you understand the "competitive" nature, you will never understand why some people do what they do.

There is a classic line from the 1960s Grand Prix racing movie where one of the principle drivers tells someone else "After an accident when other drivers are lifting off of the accelerator, I am applying full gas".

This is not the first time someone has been hurt/killed in a swoop competition and it won't be the last time either. But the vast majority of the competitive swoopers are NOT killing themselves. So I don't understand this desire by some to rush out and call for swooping to be banned (not saying this is what paul is calling for). Please people, shoot me before you force me to live in your over controlled over protected world. Last time I checked, none of us comes out of here alive. Did the racing world ban racing when Aryton Senna was killed? Did the racing world ban racing when Dale Earnhardt was killed?


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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What can you do after you release your pilot chute to hurry up your opening?

You're saying it yourself. Aside from body position, everything you do to control the length of your opening happens before you put your rig on.



Pull down really hard on your front risers sometime while your canopy is snivelling, see what happens.

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If you pull your PC late, there's no getting out of it. If you start your initial dive for a swoop late, you can still abort.



Depends on how late you start that dive. Take my Velo 79 and whip a 180 at 75ft, I challenge you to abort. Actually, take someone elses, I don't want blood on my canopy. So according to your logic, everyone who has died from a low hook turn would have lived if they would have just aborted?

Your arguments really don't make much sense, probably because as Mr. Twardo said "here is another example of speaking with authority on something you have little knowledge about".

Many people who play with low pulls (Like BASErs) can make that window for "too late" very small if they'd like. Like, well under 200ft small.

To try and argue that swooping is always safer is silly, this is coming from a swooper. Have you ever swooped into winds turbulent enough to collapse your canopy mid-swoop? I have, and even a Velo 79 can collapse in very shitty winds when I've done everything else right. The right height 450 degree turn, perfect plane out, etc. The wind could still just come along and just kill you.

Obstacle avoidance. Ever had a vehicle drive out or person run out into the landing area in front of you mid swoop on a Velo 79? That scenario has even fucked up people jumping big canopies. And to think, everything else was done right.

Ever seen an AAD fire while someone was swooping? Shame, they did everything else right, turned at the right height and everything. Unfortunately there are people dead and maimed from just that.

Ever seen lines snap on a canopy while planing out on a swoop? You can still turn at the right altitude and do everything else right and break your back over a line breaking during a swoop. It's happened. Even on lines that were deemed to be good for jumping. HMA, what a bitch sometimes.

Swooping is very very dangerous and for many years was the #1 killer of skydivers. There are lots of factors outside the control of the experienced swooper while setting up for a swoop at the correct altitude. That's why so many of them are dead.

But keep telling yourself that it is safer and more controlled than any low pulling. Sooner or later you'll see some swoop fatalities and you'll walk away scratching your head.
108 way head down world record!!!
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I don't think statistics that are almost 12 years old can be considered valid for todays world of skydiving.



Those statistics reflect a change that has happened with the introduction of high performance canopies to the sport. I'm not saying we should all go back to jumping F-111 canopies loaded at 1.0, but we certainly need to do something.



If you read the article (and I am actually pretty sure you did) and didnt pick and chose what you used in it, you would know that if you did something than the most probable effect would be a rise of fatalities in some other aspect of the sport (the article was on risk homeostasis).
Remster

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>What can you do after you release your pilot chute to hurry up your
>opening?

Use your risers to speed it up.

>Aside from body position, everything you do to control the length
>of your opening happens before you put your rig on.

Not really true.

>If you pull your PC late, there's no getting out of it.

If you open a little low you can get the canopy to open a little faster. If not, you're dead.

>If you start your initial dive for a swoop late, you can still abort.

If you start your turn a little low, you can dig it out. If you start it much lower, you're dead. Swooping gives you _some_ additional control, but not a lot.

Go to Bridge Day some time; check out how many people pull at a few hundred feet. Now compare that to a swoop competition. Both are generally over water. If what you said was true, people would be dying at Bridge Day quite often, but always surviving swooping, since you can always abort.

Sadly, history has shown the opposite.

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50,000 hits from kids you don't even know ? Wow,,,you do suffer from a lack of attention. Id rather have no one know me and jump all my life. You do know after a month or so you'll be forgotten,,,and Utube frenzy will be focused elsewhere,,,,silly shit[:/]

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

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Low pulls - The main objective is come as close as you can to death but not die/be injured AKA "cheat death."

Swooping - Main objective is speed, distance, and/or style. Death/injury is still an unfortunate possibility.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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Is very, VERY inaccurate. One could even make the argument that there is more control in precision and the altitude and time it would take for a canopy to open then there is in swooping.



Your posts about this are pretty scary.

There is far more variability in the altitude used during a freefall parachute deployment than there is in the plane-out altitude of a modern swoop when executed by a competent canopy pilot.

The difference is that the variability on the swoop is very much affected by the performance (competence) of the canopy pilot, whereas the actions of the person under a deploying canopy have little to no effect on the altitude used during the vast majority of deployments.

Quoting BASE jumping as proof of your point of view just suggests that you have not realized the variability is still there in BASE jumping too. Just do enough BASE jumps and you will eventually see it.

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