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JohnRich

Banning swooping? (was: Fatality Canopy Piloting World Cup)

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If factors such as the altitude place competitors at an unusually high risk of injury or death, he may have to decide whether or not it is safe for the competition to continue.



Back in the beginning of the sport there used to be "low pull contests", whereby two people would play "chicken" with each other to see who would chicken-out first and deploy their parachutes before impacting the ground in freefall. Imagine if someone had suggested that USPA turn these contests into an official event at the National Parachuting Championships. Balderdash! Are you crazy! That little sport activity promoted extremely dangerous stunts, but fortunately, we came to our senses, grew out of it, and are now much safer for it.

And now today we have thousands of skydivers intentionally flinging themselves at the ground under canopy at low altitude and high speed, to see who can approach the fastest and pull out of their dives the lowest. It occurs to me that canopy swooping is just like low-pull contests. But while low-pull's were always an unofficial thing between individuals, swooping is actually approved and sanctioned as an official competition activity by USPA! But it's an activity that is creating untold danger and carnage in our sport.

Will we wise-up and eliminate this activity as "too dangerous", just as we did low-pull contests?

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I did my AFF at this dz, and have been back there several times to jump. The difference in altitude between there an my normal drop zones (sea-level-ish) is always something I am very aware of.

One of my AFF instructors tragically lost his life there swooping a couple of years back. When I heard the meet was going to be held at JSC, I was surprised and a bit worried about the danger. Now another friend has died at the same place :(

Maybe John you are right :(

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I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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It occurs to me that canopy swooping is just like low-pull contests. But while low-pull's were always an unofficial thing between individuals, swooping is actually approved and sanctioned as an official competition activity by USPA! But it's an activity that is creating untold danger and carnage in our sport.

Will we wise-up and eliminate this activity as "too dangerous", just as we did low-pull contests?



Are you serious?? Or this is just a joke? because I feel a certain level of insanity sometimes when reading your replies.

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>And now today we have thousands of skydivers intentionally flinging
>themselves at the ground under canopy at low altitude and high
>speed, to see who can approach the fastest and pull out of their
>dives the lowest.

While some people no doubt do that, such maneuvers a) don't win any swoop competitions and b) if done often enough will get people warned/ejected from such competitions.

As with any skydiving competitions, there are real, inherent dangers to swooping, just as there are to 10-way, CRW and freestyle. Competitors learn how to manage these risks and perform their chosen discipline relatively safely. If there are a few people who cannot do so (say, a guy who really has to dig out of the corner on every jump, or an RW competitor who cannot pull on time) it is usually appropriate to ground that person and continue with the competition.

However, if there's a systematic problem (i.e. the high altitude causes consistent misjudgment of swoops, or brutally hard openings for RW competitors) it may make sense to call the competition. Where to draw that line is a difficult judgment call.

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When I heard the meet was going to be held at JSC, I was surprised and a bit worried about the danger.



After swooping competitions were held in Colorado and we started seeing records get shattered, I think people saw high MSL swooping as an *advantage*. More speed, more distance, more everything comes out of your swoop. But that also means an extra level of practice and caution, and higher turn initiation to safely take advantage of these bonuses.

It sounds like those didn't take place with the deceased and injured jumpers. Not that these folks aren't safe jumpers, but that they didn't go that extra that you need to safely swoop at these altitudes.

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If factors such as the altitude place competitors at an unusually high risk of injury or death, he may have to decide whether or not it is safe for the competition to continue.



Back in the beginning of the sport there used to be "low pull contests", whereby two people would play "chicken" with each other to see who would chicken-out first and deploy their parachutes before impacting the ground in freefall. Imagine if someone had suggested that USPA turn these contests into an official event at the National Parachuting Championships. Balderdash! Are you crazy! That little sport activity promoted extremely dangerous stunts, but fortunately, we came to our senses, grew out of it, and are now much safer for it.

And now today we have thousands of skydivers intentionally flinging themselves at the ground under canopy at low altitude and high speed, to see who can approach the fastest and pull out of their dives the lowest. It occurs to me that canopy swooping is just like low-pull contests. But while low-pull's were always an unofficial thing between individuals, swooping is actually approved and sanctioned as an official competition activity by USPA! But it's an activity that is creating untold danger and carnage in our sport.

Will we wise-up and eliminate this activity as "too dangerous", just as we did low-pull contests?


You can win a swoop contest, the best you can ever do in a low pull contest is tie... :P
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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If factors such as the altitude place competitors at an unusually high risk of injury or death, he may have to decide whether or not it is safe for the competition to continue.



Back in the beginning of the sport there used to be "low pull contests", whereby two people would play "chicken" with each other to see who would chicken-out first and deploy their parachutes before impacting the ground in freefall. Imagine if someone had suggested that USPA turn these contests into an official event at the National Parachuting Championships. Balderdash! Are you crazy! That little sport activity promoted extremely dangerous stunts, but fortunately, we came to our senses, grew out of it, and are now much safer for it.

And now today we have thousands of skydivers intentionally flinging themselves at the ground under canopy at low altitude and high speed, to see who can approach the fastest and pull out of their dives the lowest. It occurs to me that canopy swooping is just like low-pull contests. But while low-pull's were always an unofficial thing between individuals, swooping is actually approved and sanctioned as an official competition activity by USPA! But it's an activity that is creating untold danger and carnage in our sport.

Will we wise-up and eliminate this activity as "too dangerous", just as we did low-pull contests?



Yeah plz tell me your joking cause if not that is a pretty ignorant comment to make...

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to see who can approach the fastest and pull out of their dives the lowest.



John, if you're not kidding here, you need to either seek some education about swooping, stop posting about swooping (especially in the Incidents forum of all places), or maybe both.

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Yeah plz tell me your joking cause if not that is a pretty ignorant comment to make...

John, if you're not kidding here, you need to either seek some education about swooping, stop posting about swooping (especially in the Incidents forum of all places), or maybe both.



3 years in sport + 5 years in sport = less than half the years JR has been in the sport.

1200 jumps + 1500 jumps = Much less than JR's jumps.

That John Rich guy has no idea what he's talking about and really needs to consult the experts in these matters. Maybe if JR wasn't such a newbie he might get it.

Has anyone posted to this thread with more than 30 years in the sport? Just trying to find out who else is more qualified than he to comment on a trend in skydiving (other than you guys of course :S).
108 way head down world record!!!
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If the attitude is "We will not allow competitions in discipline X because it is too dangerous", where do you draw the line?

If all you want to do is ensure people don't get hurt, surely banning competitive elements of anything to do with aviation is the right way to go.

Come to think of it if that's the measure, we should really ban Nascar, F1, MotoGP, horse racing, javelin and any number of other activities.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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John the chief difference between a low pull contest and a canopy piloting contest is that the guy who comes closest to going in in a low pull contest posts the best score whereas the guy who comes closest to going in during a canopy piloting contest typically shows a very poor result due to the speed he loses digging out.
Many DZOs have made the decision that the danger in hi-performance canopy piloting is not worth the benefits, but many have not. That is their choice. What you seem to be advocating is very nannyish and not in line with your expressed philosophy on other matters.

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It seems like every time there is an incident, someone is ready to attack the idea of swooping, or these crazy people that do it. Look at the world... it is human nature that once we've figured out how to do something, someone is going to want to do it better, or faster, or go farther. without getting too deep into a philosophical discussion on the nature of humanity, i think it's easy to say that swooping is here to stay.
I think the relevant issue here is how does someone with 7000 skydives, and competition experience, hook into the water and die. As a swooper, I would like to understand how an error of this magnitude can be made. I'd like to hear all the information I can, so that this incident can make more sense to me. This forum is for the discussion of incidents, and the way we can learn from them. This thread is supposed to be about how others might avoid that same fate. John's idea is to eliminate (I assume via more rules and penalties?) swooping itself. As I already stated, i don't think that's a viable idea.
So, if you're not here to learn about swooping, or how to make it safer, I think your comments, and John's, would be better suited in a forum such as the bonfire. If John is not alone in his thoughts, join him, as he posts them there. Posting things, like John did, creates a distraction, to what I think is the laudable and realistic goal of this forum.



Say what you mean. Do what you say.

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Yeah plz tell me your joking cause if not that is a pretty ignorant comment to make...

John, if you're not kidding here, you need to either seek some education about swooping, stop posting about swooping (especially in the Incidents forum of all places), or maybe both.



3 years in sport + 5 years in sport = less than half the years JR has been in the sport.

1200 jumps + 1500 jumps = Much less than JR's jumps.

That John Rich guy has no idea what he's talking about and really needs to consult the experts in these matters. Maybe if JR wasn't such a newbie he might get it.

Has anyone posted to this thread with more than 30 years in the sport? Just trying to find out who else is more qualified than he to comment on a trend in skydiving (other than you guys of course :S).


Using that line of logic, you should consult him on Freefly and BASE as he automatically knows more about it than you since he's been in the sport longer. Experience in one area doesn't automatically transfer to another, particularly if one does not apparently grasp the current fundamentals and goals of that area. :S
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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Yeah plz tell me your joking cause if not that is a pretty ignorant comment to make...

John, if you're not kidding here, you need to either seek some education about swooping, stop posting about swooping (especially in the Incidents forum of all places), or maybe both.



3 years in sport + 5 years in sport = less than half the years JR has been in the sport.

1200 jumps + 1500 jumps = Much less than JR's jumps.

That John Rich guy has no idea what he's talking about and really needs to consult the experts in these matters. Maybe if JR wasn't such a newbie he might get it.

Has anyone posted to this thread with more than 30 years in the sport? Just trying to find out who else is more qualified than he to comment on a trend in skydiving (other than you guys of course :S).


Using that line of logic, you should consult him on Freefly and BASE as he automatically knows more about it than you since he's been in the sport longer. Experience in one area doesn't automatically transfer to another, particularly if one does not apparently grasp the current fundamentals and goals of that area. :S


I would agree :)
I may have taken some freefly docks, survived some BASE jumps, and jumped some HP canopies, but that does not give me the qualifications to comment on the evolution of sport parachuting over the course of several decades.
108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
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1200 jumps + 1500 jumps = Much less than JR's jumps.



And I probably have a great deal more HP landings than John. But it doesn't actually matter. Have you ever heard of the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy?

Whether John has 1 jump or 50,000, he demonstrated his ignorance of the subject in the bit I highlighted. Digging out of a swoop the lowest is a contraindication of skill. This is painfully obvious to anyone who has bothered to learn anything about swooping and has nothing to do with experience level.

In a thread where we are discussing the loss of a life, posting ignorantly in an authoritative tone does nothing but increase the noise floor and reduce the utility of the discussion.

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I cannot speak for John, only myself and in the past 10 years or so, I have watched ( not read about) way too many people either hooking it in and killing themselves or an innocent bystander or watched someone swoop and miscalculate and die!

I don't have a solution to miscalculations, but that, to me, is the cause. It will only stop when predictable turns are no greater than 90 degrees in the landing pattern that is normally used by most skydivers. Let the flames begin....
Dano

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Injury list for this event (so far):
1 x Femur
1 x Ankle
1 x Brain injury (person on respirator)
1 x Dead

Lets say this was the rugby world cup final injury list.
How would this sound then?

Since it is skydiving it is somehow ok to host events that have a reputation to kill and maim competitors.

Swooping is worse because in regular operations swoop landing patterns have been proven to put both high performance pilots and regular skydivers at risk.

Swooping in South Africa has come to the point where it is the only event that receives any attention.
The two biggest dropzones did not want to host nationals this year because of the 2008 and 2009 international canopy events that received all dz funding and attention.

Guess what was on the TV news tonight?

Option a)SA hosts prestigious world skydiving event (with beautiful footage of the competition)
Option b)Russian jumper killed while taking part skydiving event (plus full footage of his accident)

My friends killed in skydiving during malfunctions: 0
My friends killed in hook turns: 2
My friends injured in malfunctions: 1
My friends injured in hook turns: 15

The tail is waging the dog.
Time to reconsider the direction of this sport.
Wingsuit South Africa

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You are absolutely entitled to that opinion, and the feeling that 90's are the only solution. Now, please move your discussion to the bonfire, and let those of us who would like to continue swooping, and honor this deceased stranger (in probably the only way we can) by learning from this event, do that. your continued discussion of the abolition of swooping, in this thread, is a solipsistic distraction to that learning.



Say what you mean. Do what you say.

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Gentlemen,

With all due respect, you need to take your "skydiving trends" discussion and "swooping is dangerous - lets ban it!" nonsense to another forum.

This is a specific incident involving a very experienced skydiver (jump-wise much more so then all of us, if that matters) and a specific set of circumstances that led to this tragedy. Those who may be affected can learn and should do so constructively. Those who are not interested in learning, those who cry "Ban!" and those who just want to idle chat about skydiving trends in general need to do it elsewhere on this site.

Please.

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Wow, this thread really spun out of control.

Remember, we're here to learn from this incident and identify the cause. You can't just blame "swooping", because we may as well just say "skydiving" or "going outside" or "being born" or "existence". We all have different risk tolerances. Just because you don't think swooping is worth the reward, doesn't mean the next guy will agree with you. We all draw our lines in different places. Thousands in this sport qualify the reward from swooping as being worth the risk, and the vast majority of these folks proceed with great caution.

For those that do swoop and do so competitively... If you're at a high elevation DZ and don't have much competition and/or high MSL swooping experience, bring plenty of extra jump money and show up with plenty of practice time. If you can't afford the time/cost of ramping up in this area ahead of a comp, maybe you should use your travel funds on more practice.

I know of at least one canopy pilot who moved to Colorado pretty much specifically to fly/practice at a higher MSL. That's quite a level of commitment, but something to think about.

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In the spirit of trying to learn from this, and assuming that altitude has a part to play in these incidents, is there a rule of thumb for how to change an initiation altitude when one goes from, say, a DZ near sea level to one at 5,000'ish (such as Mile-Hi or JSC).

For example, would you add a certain percentage of your MSL initiation altitude and then work down from there? (eg. 700' at MSL becomes 700' + 50% at 5,000' MSL = 1050')

I know actual numbers will vary, but I'm interested in the approach people would take for their first few jumps at such a radically different density altitude.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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honor this deceased stranger



I understand what your are saying here.. but he was not a stranger to all of us..

We all know skydiving is a risky sport. And that competitions bring out the best (and worst) in us. We all want to win.

But is there any way these competitions could be made safer so the relatives, friends and families don't have to pick up the pieces when the worst happens? I have never competed in skydiving, nor have I any interest in doing so. But if there is a trend in holding competitions at high altitude dzs to increase performance, is there anything that could be done to get people, who might have thousands of jumps, but at a much lower altitude, used to the landings before the competition started?? Is this something the organisers should consider?? Putting people in boxes to send home to their families is not the best way to represent our sport, in my view. Nor will it do much to attract first jumpers / tandems to the host dzs if the publicity following the competition is all about deaths, brain damange and other injuries.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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In the 1940s - 1980s did they ban Formula One / Indy car races after a racer died? Did they ban auto racing after Ayrton Senna was killed? Did they ban auto racing after Dale Earnhardt Sr was killed? No they looked for ways to improve safety of the sport. Racing is still a dangerous activity, but lessons were learned from the deaths of the folks who helped pioneer the sport and nowadays deaths in racing are not as common.

Competitive swooping is a new'ish sport. There has been a few accidents along the way and yes even a few deaths. But by and large the really good swoopers are not killing themselves. The problem is is that in order to get really good you need to push yourself to your limits (but stay within these limits) and the margin for error is pretty slim. As a former (mostly amateur) competitive swooper I knew the risks and even had a few close calls as I pushed my limits to the edge. It's hard to say for sure, but it sounds like this fellow found himself in the corner and the corner can be very unforgiving place (even over water). He is not the first nor will he be the last to die. But just think where humans would be if people were afraid of risks. Afraid to fly because of the possible dangers. Just think where humans would be if race car drivers were afraid to push themselves and their cars to the limits (our modern cars would not be as remotely as safe as they are now).

Competitive swoopers know why they do what they do and I don't think that there is a single competitive swooper alive who does not know the dangers they put themselves in on every jump. Unfortunately (at least for now) I have had to stop my pursuits of competitive swooping due to my lack of currency in the sport. But unless you do it, it's almost impossible to understand what drives the competitive swooper to do what they do. You have to be a competitive swooper to understand.

PS: BSBD ...


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.

The thousands of successful swoops that happen every weekend in this country show that swooping is a repeatable maneuver.

I am curious though. Do the majority of swooping incidents happen because the initial spiral to speed up is too low, or is it that the person misjudges his recovery arc and doesn't flare as he approaches the ground?
Dropzones are terrible places for inspiration. What does one think when one looks up for a sign only to see a bunch of people falling?

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