Graeme_Coutts 0 #1 December 13, 2009 The attached is a pic from my very first jump. Not a major thing but as a first timer it certainly got my heart pumping a little faster. My question is this: What could have caused the line tangle? My memory of that first jump is vivid and there were no line twist on deployment and all seemed well until my checks. I had sufficient control, by using the LHS toggle for "differential" steering and walked away after creating a suitable cloud of dust on landing. For the experienced people out there, are there ways of clearing this type of thing or is it best just to fly it in for landing..... Excuse the noobness of the question..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jbag 0 #2 December 13, 2009 i would probably attempt a few toggle pumps, just pump your breaks...if that didnt clear it i would probably have just chopped and gone to my reserve. as for the problem, only thing i could think of right now is the line somehow getting stuck on the cascade, maybe inside the little ring that holds the cascade together...far fetched though. EDIT: another thought is maybe a mis-routed steering line, done during the rigging.IHYD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Graeme_Coutts 0 #3 December 13, 2009 Really? Bad enough to have chopped? Well in some respects I am glad it was on my first ride and hence didn't realize it was a "choppable" tangle! PS, I did pump the breaks twice.... Thanks for the response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Psychonaut 0 #4 December 13, 2009 By looking at it you can tell the canopy is 'airworthy' in that state. Although something goofy is going on with the lines, all cells are inflated, and even though you have the 2 curling down, that isn't going to affect much with 7 above you. After the S checks, I would make sure that the left toggle input was enough to keep you flying straight. Beyond that, I would make sure that I wasn't having to fully flare the left side to fly straight, because if you had to do that you wouldn't have much flare.Stay high pull low Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jbag 0 #5 December 13, 2009 heres what i see...i dont know what is going on up there that the end cells are doing that...how do i know that at 15' its gonna clear mid flare or even worse collapse the rest of the wing mid-flare...if i dont know whats going on i like to get rid of it, a couple broken lines fine, anymore than 2, no...IHYD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
format 0 #6 December 13, 2009 Is it steerable? YES Is it steady malfunction? (showing no potential for change) YES Is there steady wind with no gusts? YES Some vast soft grass field? YES Give me some small "no" and watch me choppin' main. I might be a pussy What goes around, comes later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jbag 0 #7 December 13, 2009 Quote Is it steerable? YES Is it steady malfunction? (showing no potential for change) YES Is there steady wind with no gusts? YES Some vast soft grass field? YES Give me some small "no" and watch me choppin' main. I might be a pussy look at the picture and how far he is pulling down on the left toggle to keep it flying strait (assumption that the picture is of him flying straight). how much more of a flare are you going to get (apart of control check). how do you know that with repeated flares that the line that is rubbing on the other line wont tear? IMO to much shit going on to play the game of chance.IHYD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
format 0 #8 December 13, 2009 I guess you've missed my point (of view). I've had my cutaway for way less, because there was a "NO" answer to couple of safety issues. just read it againWhat goes around, comes later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Graeme_Coutts 0 #9 December 13, 2009 The canopy was steerable to an extent but with it being my first jump I had no point of reference. The pic is of me on final and I was flying straight (just checked the uncropped pic and those after) and I landed straight into the wind. Looking at the vid I seemed to not have much forward speed and the wind was constant on the day. I did crumple a little on landing but walked away to jump twice more on the day. I am quite shaky at the thought that I should have chopped and it triggered a thought on how many cutaways have been done on first jumps! Scares the shit out of me! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #10 December 13, 2009 QuoteBy looking at it you can tell the canopy is 'airworthy' in that state. Sorry, but there is more to knowing if a canopy is airworthy than just by looking at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #11 December 13, 2009 Graeme, I see nothing in this thread about how you've already discussed this in plenty of detail with your own instructors. Have you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Graeme_Coutts 0 #12 December 13, 2009 QuoteGraeme, I see nothing in this thread about how you've already discussed this in plenty of detail with your own instructors. Have you? Andy, I have discussed at length with the guys and the response was not much different from the replies above. I admit, rather ashamedly that I played it down at the time as the post jump adrenalin was high and I had walked away happily after all. The fact that I was with a bunch of work mates did not help in me wanting to delve into the "whys" and "hows" at the time. It was only after jump 2 that I decided that I really wanted to pursue this sport in earnest. I have recently gone through the pics again and I think it could be because I have had 2 "funnies" in my 6 jumps that I pose these question to this forum. That and the fact that I want to learn all I possibly can so that I can enjoy this sport to the full. Jump 5 was a lot worse from my point of view and in retrospect (and after reading the above replies) I should have landed on my reserve. It was only after clearing my rather substantial line twists that I saw that all was far from right with my rig. By that time and with my non-existent experience level I thought I may have been too low to cut away. I was given a good talking to by my instructor and I realize how lucky I was not to have broken something...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #13 December 13, 2009 With 2 malfunctions in 6 jumps you must either be real unlucky, or the dz needs a better packer."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Graeme_Coutts 0 #14 December 13, 2009 QuoteWith 2 malfunctions in 6 jumps you must either be real unlucky, or the dz needs a better packer. I hear you (or more accurately "read" you) and can only respond by saying that I am hoping that it is the former that holds true here. Not that I would like to consider myself unlucky in any way but rather that than have a dodge packer on the loose! I trust that the old saying that things happen in threes does not apply in this case! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #15 December 13, 2009 Ok, I have gone a bit overboard this Sunday morning but here's one answer: Reason? "Tension knot" is the term for it. Sometimes a tension knot can be a big jumble of lines where they deployed in a disorderly manner and tensioned lines catching on things like loops of slacker line. Other times there are only a few lines involved, and even for an experienced jumper under the canopy it can be hard to see exactly what and why it is happening. Lines catch on each other, especially where there are lumps in the lines, such as where lines are sewn into each other where they split up from single to multiple ones. That's very roughly where it looks like it is happening on your canopy -- where one brake line becomes four, where two outer lines split into two each. Cause? It can be just bad luck, but the chance will go up with: - a sloppier pack job where the lines weren't kept well tensioned and straight, or - lines being older and fuzzier, or - perhaps when brake lines get many twists in them (which need to be cleared from time to time when packing) Usually there's no particular way to say why it happened on one jump and not hundreds of previous ones. (I've never really seen much analysis of tension knots in skydiving, so if there are better ways to explain it, somebody go for it.) Did you do the right thing as a jumper in general (rather than as a first jump student)? Actually there have been other threads lately where experienced skydivers have argued about what to do in cases where there is a canopy problem like a broken line or broken brake line or canopy tear, where in many cases the canopy may still seem to fly OK. There aren't easy answers. If someone really feels they can land it, they can choose to. But sometimes the canopy may be controllable and flying well enough "up there", but at some later point one might get the canopy into a state where control isn't very effective any more. Or, one might be moving faster than normal but not notice it, and not have that much control to slow the canopy in the flare for landing. It can be hard to tell up high, even experimenting with the brakes, to tell exactly how much the speed and the flare differs from normal. So the recommendation becomes to get rid of the canopy unless you have really really good reasons to think that you can land it -- and it is the really good reasons part that is up for debate. Did you do the right thing, as a first jump student? Generally the answer is that if you walked away from a skydive, you did OK. The idea is that sometimes there is no one correct answer on what to do. Of course there are exceptions to this simplistic rule, like that you didn't survive by pure luck when another option would have been much better, or you hurt someone else along the way. Instruction for first jump students is kept simple so as not to be confusing about all sorts of little details that the student isn't likely to perceive or take action on a first jump anyway. 99% of the time, a malfunction is going to be easy to recognize, largely because it is bad enough -- all the stuff they will have taught about rushing air, lack of anything but a ball of garbage above you, spinning wildly, etc. Very occasionally you'll get something that is hard to recognize, often because it is relatively minor, like what you experienced. Schools vary in exactly what details they teach their students about malfunctions, especially for those rare more grey areas. I'll assume you followed what you were taught, in that the canopy was "controllable" in some particular way, that you could turn left or right or flare and they canopy stayed roughly square above you. But if you let both toggles up, the canopy wouldn't be flying straight. It wouldn't just gradually drift off heading, which is OK, but would probably slowly wind up into a spiralling dive. I've seen decent, well-established schools where I thought they didn't really cover the "flying straight" aspect: Even after the jumper watches the canopy fully open, and also does a controllability check, one last test of the canopy being right is that the canopy should be flying approximately straight on its own. As others have said, you needed a lot of brake to keep the canopy going straight, which to an experienced jumper would show that there was a significant problem and that getting a good flare for landing was going to be tough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Graeme_Coutts 0 #16 December 13, 2009 Thank you for the very insightful response. Hell, there is a shedload to learn in this sport.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #17 December 13, 2009 Quote Hell, there is a shedload to learn in this sport.... Sure is, and that doesn't change whether you have 1, 10, 100, 1000 or 10000 jumps. Keep that in your head as long as you're in the sport and you'll be a much more headsup skydiver than the ones who think as soon as they have their license they're done learning new things."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Graeme_Coutts 0 #18 December 13, 2009 Quote Quote Hell, there is a shedload to learn in this sport.... Sure is, and that doesn't change whether you have 1, 10, 100, 1000 or 10000 jumps. Keep that in your head as long as you're in the sport and you'll be a much more headsup skydiver than the ones who think as soon as they have their license they're done learning new things. That is my aim NW, thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #19 December 13, 2009 In a first jump course at one of my dz's they taught that, it's okay if you have to give a little input to go straight, as long as your hands are within one hand length of each other."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #20 December 14, 2009 During your First Jump Course did the instructor tell you to identify problems from top to bottom and fix them from bottom to top? Most new jumpers will have some amount of line twists in their first few jumps (mainly because of body position during deployment). Did your instructor teach you the 3 S's for a canopy check? 1) Square 2) Steerable 3) Stable From looking at your picture I would have questioned #1. But overall, you did fine, you walked away with no injuries. You were aware enough to make the canopy fly straight by countering with the other toggle. The thing to consider is that if the winds had been lower that day you may have had a harder landing because you were already at the #2 position with your left toggle so that's going to really cut down on how much flare you can get out of the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #21 December 14, 2009 Most of the points I would make have been covered. I would encourage one of my students to get rid of this based on 2 of the 3 S's. Assuming the photo is of you trying to fly straight, I teach that to be steerable requires 3 things. Turn right, Turn left, and fly straight. I add that if you have to bring a toggle lower than your ear to fly straight I would probably get rid of it and land my reserve. Experienced jumpers can evaluate this further but newer jumpers should take a more cautious approach in my opinion. I also would question the ability to flare and lacking that, I definitely recommend landing the reserve. Our student canopies are large enough that I have seen students land without a flare with minor bumps and bruises. Looking at the distortion in that photo, I am not sure that canopy is going to land with it's full potential and could in fact be moving faster both vertical and horizontal than normal. You can't really tell until you are at the ground and are committed. Everyone can make up their own minds but reserve repacks aren't expensive enough to jeapordize your safety. I am glad it worked out for you and this really is why student gear is so big."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeFlyer2100 0 #22 December 14, 2009 Is it just me but look how twisted that brake line is. I know we are only looking at one picture but does anyone else think it looks as twisted and made the line that much shorter?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #23 December 14, 2009 The brake lines look pretty clear - at least there's no easily visible deflection of the tail. It looks like the cascade from the stabiliser is caught in a tension knot on the A or B lines to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rapter 0 #24 December 16, 2009 Caused by body position , for you landed it with no problems , no issues,………… Only the good die young, so I have found immortality, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #25 December 17, 2009 we taught that if you could get the canopy (280) to flu straight with one hand no lower than you'r ear it's _probably_ landable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
