What Can We Do About Skyride II

[lancefrazier 0]

see you fellas later. i'm going to bed...

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[fincher 0]

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what about a murderer?

what if O.J. simpson opened a DZ? Wait.....he does run a couple in tennessee right?..........oh nevermind I was thinking of someone else.

Oh, Please...Divert? Deflect? "Don't look at me! Look at HIM!"
Thanks, though, because that has less to do with my "irrelevant" comment about Billy Vance than anything so far concerning "WTF can we do about What's-It's-Name!" An old pioneer saying here in Colorado goes, "when you circle your wagons, be sure of who all is in your camp."

Jeff, these are good words to live by.

im not sure but is that last line a threat? Or is it a code gay cowboys use to solicit sex?

lighten up john. It was a joke. taboo is the new black

i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down

[popsjumper 2]

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ok class,

extra credit time!

i'll buy anyone a lift ticket at their home dz if they can tell me what my point is...

the answer "defending skyride" will get you after school detention!

My guess is:
I just work and jump here. I have nothing to do with Skyride business practices. BUT I'm more than willing to take the money they earn from those practices.

Lance, some of you guys over there are good people...some are not. As far as the Skyride jumpers are concerned, you guys aren't blind. You guys aren't totally in the dark about what's going on. All some of us are saying is, how can you justify participating and supporting Skyride by working for them?

Your answer seems to be: Other people/companies do it so it's OK if I work for people/companies that do it.

I just don't understand that mentality.

On top of that, don't you see that Skyride is doing major damage to the skydiving industry? Do you think that those who get ripped off are telling their friends what a wonderful industry skydiving is?

Do you think those who read and see the negative exposure we are getting from the print and broadcast media are thinking that this is only one business out of hundreds?

Something to think about.

One other thing. let's both refrain from posting dumbass, snide comments back and forth. If we can't have a discussion without resorting to that shit, save it, stow it and let it pass. I will even if you won't. Thank you.

Just so you know....I would love to see ASC as an independent DZ. You guys could have all the fun you wanted and not be contributors to the Skyride business practices. I would even come over and jump with you guys periodically.
(OK, so that might not be so deirable on your part but I would offer, at least.)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[johndh1 0]

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lancefrazier it appears you are right about picking a side. Unfortuneatly I have to quote Val Kilmer. "My hipocracy only goes so far"

Johndh1 has chosen just to start attacking people again and take this thread back to a irrational place. A place where multiple view points cant be discussed. NO! its all satan skyride. If you dont agree 100 percent then you are wrong in every aspect. I wilVery narrow minded johndh1.....

I am interested in this beaver creek though? sounds fun. Is that like the bunny ranch? I'd like to shred that!!!

"Attack?" and "irrational place?" You have got to be kidding, parabut I don't say much on this newsgroup anymore, but when a personal friend is once-again dismissed in public for something which I believe is totally unfair and undeserved (and something that I have sworn time-and-time again to defend, but didn't), I do take the opportunity to get involved.

How I've attacked and tried to quell misleading and opposing viewpoints in your opinion is totally puzzling to me (I invite your peeps to defend their honor, and that of their absent superior!)- like I stated in an earlier post, both sides have presented indisputable facts; the only problem is the "right versus wrong" basis.

The Santa/Satan thing was originally just a smart-assed remark (c'mon, you know that), and wouldn't have been brought up by myself the second time but for the fact that someone messed up their reply, but still, I will agree with you that "If you don't agree 100 percent then you are wrong in every aspect." Here's where we are:

I cannot see any redeeming qualities in that organization. In my view, you are either for Skyride or against; not for evolving it into some purported legitimate and sanctioned nationwide marketing organization benefiting each dropzone in their respective region. It's not something that can start out "bad" and end up "good" and everyone be happy. Their beginning is/was based on lies.

I will agree that you are right in your insinuation that I will never think that somehow Skyride has or ever will be a good thing.

And, no, Beaver Creek is nothing like the Bunny Ranch that you have googled, but never visited, either.

Roll Tide Roll

[popsjumper 2]

Is the Bunny Ranch what I think it is...some establishnment in Nevada?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[johndh1 0]

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im not sure but is that last line a threat? Or is it a code gay cowboys use to solicit sex?

lighten up john. It was a joke. taboo is the new black

I can't quit you...but I do want you to join a gym, you skinny bitch, and one that has a tanning bed.

Roll Tide Roll

[johndh1 0]

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Is the Bunny Ranch what I think it is...some establishnment in Nevada?

In Nye county, I believe. Parabut has seen it on t.v. or something.

Roll Tide Roll

[fincher 0]

I know you love me manwhore! I'll agree to get a tan but I will never put on weight. NEVER!

now circle your wagon cause im coming to camp bitch

i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down

[johndh1 0]

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I know you love me manwhore! I'll agree to get a tan but I will never put on weight. NEVER!

Not if you're feeding yourself on Skyride commission checks like all those other dzo's left holding the bag!

And you couldn't get a tan if you jumped into a volcano.

Roll Tide Roll

[parabuteo 0]

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I see you haven't been around long. Do you know the history behind anything you're talking about? Do you know how many dropzones and skydivers have been wronged by skyride? Do you have any idea what dropzones were started with drug money and when?

Skyride steals from skydivers. They have a long history of it. No, they don't come to your home and take money out of your wallet. They steal intellectual property, business (through lies and deception), etc, etc, etc. There are plenty of references where you can look up the details of what they've done and what they continue to do.

You make it sound like there are all kinds of dropzones in the drug dealing business. That's not the case. There are however a few dropzones affiliated with a company that has profited by stealing from other dropzones and skydivers and through tricking OUR customers and potential skydivers.

Research who you're talking about and I think your opinion will either change. Or maybe you already jump at one of their dropzones?

Dave

true I havent been around long, and where i started jumping no one talked about skyride. I have researched it though and read through the majority of the stuff on here. I guess i was just really unimpressed with some of the attitudes of the posters. It made me a little skeptical about the reliability of some of the info. And as always there two sides too every story. Usually if you throw out the far left and the far right you will find the truth there in the middle. I think its true here too.

I have researched the history of drug trafficing in this sport too. I dont believe I implied that all kinds of DZ's are in the drug business.

I guess my answer to you is that I have researched it and why would you think or want my opinion to change? I already said I dont like skyride. People here seem to be looking right past what I write and just seeing what they want. Or is it that you want me to change my mind about the drug trafficing? Maybe thats it. People here seem to be ok with supporting and defending that behavior

I just find it interesting that this gets so much attention and so much anger. Especially looking at the ethical past of the sport. Also its ethical present. There are DZ's that lie, steal, and engage in poor ethics every day. There are DZ's that downright endanger the lives of the jumpers! (some were mentioned a few pages back) Yet the skyride issue is the only one with a ongoing thread about it. Everything else wrong with the sport you guys find a way to justify. I just find this system of justification strange. Are you guys really concerned with ethics? Or has this become almost a cult like ban wagon?
I dont believe its ethics. Not the way you guys pick and choose. Seems to me to be more of some kind of rivalry between competition

And no I dont jump at one of thier dropzones. I have. But NOt regularly. I have also jumped at a drug money DZ. But i'm not the one supporting an initiative to stop either one. If I were on a ethical campaign though, I would have to boycot both. I guess i'm a outcast here because im not a hypocrite?

[RIGGER160 0]

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ok class,

extra credit time!

i'll buy anyone a lift ticket at their home dz if they can tell me what my point is...

the answer "defending skyride" will get you after school detention!

My guess is:
I just work and jump here. I have nothing to do with Skyride business practices. BUT I'm more than willing to take the money they earn from those practices.

Lance, some of you guys over there are good people...some are not. As far as the Skyride jumpers are concerned, you guys aren't blind. You guys aren't totally in the dark about what's going on. All some of us are saying is, how can you justify participating and supporting Skyride by working for them?

Your answer seems to be: Other people/companies do it so it's OK if I work for people/companies that do it.

I just don't understand that mentality.

On top of that, don't you see that Skyride is doing major damage to the skydiving industry? Do you think that those who get ripped off are telling their friends what a wonderful industry skydiving is?

Do you think those who read and see the negative exposure we are getting from the print and broadcast media are thinking that this is only one business out of hundreds?

Something to think about.

One other thing. let's both refrain from posting dumbass, snide comments back and forth. If we can't have a discussion without resorting to that shit, save it, stow it and let it pass. I will even if you won't. Thank you.

Just so you know....I would love to see ASC as an independent DZ. You guys could have all the fun you wanted and not be contributors to the Skyride business practices. I would even come over and jump with you guys periodically.
(OK, so that might not be so deirable on your part but I would offer, at least.)

What we hate is hypocricy. Others get on here and try to tear us apart for working for an "evil" company yet they are willing to go give their hard earned money to companys that have an international track record of abuses. I cant speak for others but that is my mentality.

[davelepka 4]

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What we hate is hypocricy. Others get on here and try to tear us apart for working for an "evil" company yet they are willing to go give their hard earned money to companys that have an international track record of abuses. I cant speak for others but that is my mentality

I'm not sure what companies you're speaking of, but I'll guess Wal-Mart is somewhere in there. I personally don't shop at Wal Mart, but I'll be honest, it's not because of their international wrong-doing. It's because their stuff is junk, and the stuff they have that isn't junk you can get some place else.

Back to the topic. Lets say I do shop at Wal mart, and in turn I support everything they do wrong. Then I come online, and chastise you for working at a Skyride DZ (which I'm not even sure you do). Am I a hypocrite because of that?

I can see arguments for answering 'no', but I'll suspend them, and say sure, I am a hypocrite.

How does that justify you working for a company you know to be involved in dishonest and misleading business practices, and that is clearly taking advantage of a great deal of DZs in this very small industry we're involved in?

How does anythng I do justify your affiliation?

How does anything anyone does justify your affiliation?

How do you justify your affilitation?

[lancefrazier 0]

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ok class,

extra credit time!

i'll buy anyone a lift ticket at their home dz if they can tell me what my point is...

the answer "defending skyride" will get you after school detention!

My guess is:
I just work and jump here. I have nothing to do with Skyride business practices. BUT I'm more than willing to take the money they earn from those practices.

Lance, some of you guys over there are good people...some are not. As far as the Skyride jumpers are concerned, you guys aren't blind. You guys aren't totally in the dark about what's going on. All some of us are saying is, how can you justify participating and supporting Skyride by working for them?

Your answer seems to be: Other people/companies do it so it's OK if I work for people/companies that do it.

I just don't understand that mentality.

On top of that, don't you see that Skyride is doing major damage to the skydiving industry? Do you think that those who get ripped off are telling their friends what a wonderful industry skydiving is?

Do you think those who read and see the negative exposure we are getting from the print and broadcast media are thinking that this is only one business out of hundreds?

Something to think about.

One other thing. let's both refrain from posting dumbass, snide comments back and forth. If we can't have a discussion without resorting to that shit, save it, stow it and let it pass. I will even if you won't. Thank you.

Just so you know....I would love to see ASC as an independent DZ. You guys could have all the fun you wanted and not be contributors to the Skyride business practices. I would even come over and jump with you guys periodically.
(OK, so that might not be so deirable on your part but I would offer, at least.)

andy,
the question has been answered already. my point is that the most strident skyride haters are guilty of hypocrisy, because they take a moral high ground on this issue that they don't apply to other sectors of their life. i respect everyone having a cause.

johndh1's signature
"Boycott Aruba - No Natalee, No Justice, No Tourists'
is a cause, shutting down a startlingly aggressive booking service is an agenda.

can we agree that there is a difference?

likening skyride to drug trafficking and slavery is ridiculous. inflicting some melodramatic moral imperative on skydivers is unreasonable.

disagreeing with it and taking steps to that effect is sensible.

asserting that "skyride jumpers"(there is no such thing, andy) are morally deficient, liars, and crooks for not being interested in what skyride does is pointless. you will be perpetually disapointed with the answer you will get from us regarding this question,

"All some of us are saying is, how can you justify participating and supporting Skyride by working for them?"

simply put my friend, we do not care!

"Your answer seems to be: Other people/companies do it so it's OK if I work for people/companies that do it. "
"I just don't understand that mentality. "
- of course you can andy. all of us suppress our morals and ideals daily in order to be able to live in a society. your steak/chicken/pork chop last night was almost guaranteed to be the product of a packing facility staffed by immigrants who are underpaid, mistreated, and subjected to barbaric working conditions. how did it taste?

it's called cognitive dissonance, it's a mechanism we all use to get by.


like chris is not concerned with the origin of his underwear, wendy did not care about how the marbles got to elgin, and there is probably some issue that really important to me, that doesn't concern you.

i take issue with a lot of things that go on at your dz. you'll never see me author a thread to that effect, much less indict you publicly for working/jumping there.

you'll never see me jump to cary's defense, he doesn't need it.

you will however get an earful from me when you and others attack me and my friends personally.


" Lance, some of you guys over there are good people...some are not"

the same is true for your bunch. i'm also weary of the saccharine, conciliatory tone this conveys. i don't need an occasional warm fuzzy from people who attack me, my friends and my dz. to me it seems like a feeble attempt at making sure we don't start dragging everyone elses laundry into this dumb ass forum.

i spent most of the summer at the farm, you know that, i hang out there on a regular basis. jello and i never have this conversation in person. only here. why? because we have better things to talk about!


"One other thing. let's both refrain from posting dumbass, snide comments back and forth. If we can't have a discussion without resorting to that shit, save it, stow it and let it pass. I will even if you won't. Thank you."

calling retards retards pleases me. it pleases me as much as recognizing people's ability to make a logical argument free of personal attacks. good, thoughtful posts do show up in this thread.

"Just so you know....I would love to see ASC as an independent DZ. You guys could have all the fun you wanted and not be contributors to the Skyride business practices. I would even come over and jump with you guys periodically. "

we essentially are. asc jumpers jump at the farm and vice versa. feel free to come over anytime.


andy, you and i have walked by each other a hundred times and never spoken. next time i see you, i'm shaking your hand.

to summarize my position;

if you hate skyride, congrats. campaign against it, picket, petition, set up a legal fund to fight it.
however lend yourselves the legitimacy borne of rational thought. don't make us, your fellow jumpers out as wicked because we don't share your zealotry.
everyone fights the battles they see fit, i'm about to go battle these dirty bathrooms.

lance

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[lancefrazier 0]

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ok class,

extra credit time!

i'll buy anyone a lift ticket at their home dz if they can tell me what my point is...

the answer "defending skyride" will get you after school detention!

My guess is:
I just work and jump here. I have nothing to do with Skyride business practices. BUT I'm more than willing to take the money they earn from those practices.

Lance, some of you guys over there are good people...some are not. As far as the Skyride jumpers are concerned, you guys aren't blind. You guys aren't totally in the dark about what's going on. All some of us are saying is, how can you justify participating and supporting Skyride by working for them?

Your answer seems to be: Other people/companies do it so it's OK if I work for people/companies that do it.

I just don't understand that mentality.

On top of that, don't you see that Skyride is doing major damage to the skydiving industry? Do you think that those who get ripped off are telling their friends what a wonderful industry skydiving is?

Do you think those who read and see the negative exposure we are getting from the print and broadcast media are thinking that this is only one business out of hundreds?

Something to think about.

One other thing. let's both refrain from posting dumbass, snide comments back and forth. If we can't have a discussion without resorting to that shit, save it, stow it and let it pass. I will even if you won't. Thank you.

Just so you know....I would love to see ASC as an independent DZ. You guys could have all the fun you wanted and not be contributors to the Skyride business practices. I would even come over and jump with you guys periodically.
(OK, so that might not be so deirable on your part but I would offer, at least.)

What we hate is hypocricy. Others get on here and try to tear us apart for working for an "evil" company yet they are willing to go give their hard earned money to companys that have an international track record of abuses. I cant speak for others but that is my mentality.

you just earned second prize, a hop and pop.

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[lancefrazier 0]

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What we hate is hypocricy. Others get on here and try to tear us apart for working for an "evil" company yet they are willing to go give their hard earned money to companys that have an international track record of abuses. I cant speak for others but that is my mentality

I'm not sure what companies you're speaking of, but I'll guess Wal-Mart is somewhere in there. I personally don't shop at Wal Mart, but I'll be honest, it's not because of their international wrong-doing. It's because their stuff is junk, and the stuff they have that isn't junk you can get some place else.

Back to the topic. Lets say I do shop at Wal mart, and in turn I support everything they do wrong. Then I come online, and chastise you for working at a Skyride DZ (which I'm not even sure you do). Am I a hypocrite because of that?

I can see arguments for answering 'no', but I'll suspend them, and say sure, I am a hypocrite.

How does that justify you working for a company you know to be involved in dishonest and misleading business practices, and that is clearly taking advantage of a great deal of DZs in this very small industry we're involved in?

How does anythng I do justify your affiliation?

How does anything anyone does justify your affiliation?

How do you justify your affilitation?

dave,
the point is we don't feel compelled to justify ourselves. we don't feel like we are doing anything wrong by working here. NO MORAL COMPULSION.

ray kroc (founder of mcdonalds), decimated the the family run burger joint nationwide. he bought the "speedy service system" and the golden arches from a couple brothers named mcdonalds. by his own admission, his most satisfying moment was opening a Mcdonalds across the street from their joint a few years later, putting them out of business. mcdonalds is a freakin' american hallmark. why don't you run down to the one on your local street corner and call their employees out...

and pick me up a two cheeseburger combo, you can fax it to me....

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[Thanatos340 1]

Lance,

I remember when Shimmel was their chief online defender. I see you have now stepped up to that role.

Let me guess .. You are the Shiminator Mark II??

I predicted your appearance way back in 2005.

[BillyVance 34]

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Lance,

I remember when Shimmel was their chief online defender.

I remember when he used to insult me by calling me 'dood' on here. But yeah, he eventually came over to the greener side, though I don't remember exactly what turned him.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Jumpdude 0]

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Lance,

I remember when Shimmel was their chief online defender.

I remember when he used to insult me by calling me 'dood' on here. But yeah, he eventually came over to the greener side, though I don't remember exactly what turned him.

That answer is quite easy, he got smart!

Hey everybody, I'm here, let's all get the helmets and crayons out!



All that evidence can't be wrong!!!

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

[theonlyski 3]

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Hey everybody, I'm here, let's all get the helmets and crayons out!

Not all of us need the helmets and crayons... but thank you for contributing. You're such a special boy!

You get a gold star! (Just ask any 1st grade teacher for it. Tell them I said its ok.)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[lancefrazier 0]

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Lance,

I remember when Shimmel was their chief online defender. I see you have now stepped up to that role.

Let me guess .. You are the Shiminator Mark II??

I predicted your appearance way back in 2005.

i remember mark. when i made my first post on this forum, he was really loud about this whole issue.

something happened, mark's gone real quiet.

any idea what it was?

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[popsjumper 2]

"i don't need an occasional warm fuzzy from people who attack me, my friends and my dz. to me it seems like a feeble attempt at making sure we don't start dragging everyone elses laundry into this dumb ass forum. "

OK...you misread the intent, but OK.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[lancefrazier 0]

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"i don't need an occasional warm fuzzy from people who attack me, my friends and my dz. to me it seems like a feeble attempt at making sure we don't start dragging everyone elses laundry into this dumb ass forum. "

OK...you misread the intent, but OK.

my apologies, could you clarify for me?

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[Bolas 5]

You fight the fights you care about and (maybe) think you can win.

People who choose to oppose Skyride can put their focus on that. Expecting anyone who opposes and fights anything must also oppose everything "evil" is not practical nor even possible as their efforts would be too spread out.

As for drugs, many people think they should be legalized and may not have a problem with drug trafficking, regardless of legality.

I've gone and hung out at ASC and had a great time. I have many friends that choose to jump there. However, since I oppose their parent companies business practices I choose not to contribute monetarily by jumping there. That's what I chose to do. What other do is not my concern.

Have I jumped at DZ's that accept Skyride? Yes. Am I happy I'm indirectly supporting them when I do? No, but because it's indirect I accept it.

Everyone has different levels of things they will accept:

In the case of Skyride it varies from staunch defender - refuses to even be affiliated with the USPA.

For me personally, it's telling any new potential student to go to uspa.org to find the closest DZ to them and not contributing monetarily to any business directly associated.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[lancefrazier 0]

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You fight the fights you care about and (maybe) think you can win.

People who choose to oppose Skyride can put their focus on that. Expecting anyone who opposes and fights anything must also oppose everything "evil" is not practical nor even possible as their efforts would be too spread out.

As for drugs, many people think they should be legalized and may not have a problem with drug trafficking, regardless of legality.

I've gone and hung out at ASC and had a great time. I have many friends that choose to jump there. However, since I oppose their parent companies business practices I choose not to contribute monetarily by jumping there. That's what I chose to do. What other do is not my concern.

Have I jumped at DZ's that accept Skyride? Yes. Am I happy I'm indirectly supporting them when I do? No, but because it's indirect I accept it.

Everyone has different levels of things they will accept:

In the case of Skyride it varies from staunch defender - refuses to even be affiliated with the USPA.

For me personally, it's telling any new potential student to go to uspa.org to find the closest DZ to them and not contributing monetarily to any business directly associated.

well said!

"People who choose to oppose Skyride can put their focus on that. Expecting anyone who opposes and fights anything must also oppose everything "evil" is not practical nor even possible as their efforts would be too spread out."

-inversely, those who don't choose to fight the things others choose to fight cannot be deemed complicit, or accused of contributing to the problem.

unfortunately the adage "you are part of the solution, or part of the problem" doesn't bear out in real life. people aren't compelled to be either.

"As for drugs, many people think they should be legalized and may not have a problem with drug trafficking, regardless of legality."
-that's crazy talk

"I've gone and hung out at ASC and had a great time. I have many friends that choose to jump there. However, since I oppose their parent companies business practices I choose not to contribute monetarily by jumping there. That's what I chose to do. What other do is not my concern."
-entirely too sensible!

cheers, bolas!

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[Jumpdude 0]

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Hey everybody, I'm here, let's all get the helmets and crayons out!

Not all of us need the helmets and crayons... but thank you for contributing. You're such a special boy!

You get a gold star! (Just ask any 1st grade teacher for it. Tell them I said its ok.)

How 'bout some play dough? Anybody got any?

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org