What Can We Do About Skyride II

[billvon 2,396]

>The sad truth is there is a percentage of people,not only in this sport
>but society in general, that really would not care about any of the things
>on your list as long as everything works out ok for them.

There is an even larger percentage of people who do not think forcing children to have sex as prostitutes is at all similar to using sleazy advertising to sell nonrefundable services to people - and that making such comparisons just makes you look silly.

[RIGGER160 0]

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ok class,

extra credit time!

i'll buy anyone a lift ticket at their home dz if they can tell me what my point is...

the answer "defending skyride" will get you after school detention!

Lance I think I see your point.

A crime commited 200 years ago and a crime commited today have a pretty big thing in common. THEY ARE BOTH CRIMES. Plain and simple. Peoples acceptance to brushing off the past and that it doesnt matter is a clear example of how many moral compasses around here need a tune up.

Wendys example of how she didnt do anything wrong was a perfect example how so many people fail to see things clearly. I'm sure she is an outstanding person and model citizen however she failed to see the fact that she propagated the acceptance of visiting stolen artifacts. If she would have done a 1 second search she would have seen that there has been a debate over them since they were put on diplay in 1816, the Greeks want there shit back.....but sick burn on them cuz those things were in the past right?

So do I get extra credit Lance? I will be down in cedartown this friday if i did get it right....

[lancefrazier 0]

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I think what Dave is saying is that bad acts that are ended are better than bad acts that are still going on.

Of course they are but the only reason they are better is that they have ended.

When I was in England, I saw the Elgin marbles. They were stolen from Greece, but I don't really think that looking at them makes me a bad person. Geek, maybe, but not a bad person.

Wendy there is nothing geeky about it. A quest for knowledge is very admirable.

But if I were to buy antiquities myself, well, that's a different story.

How exactly is it a different story? There is no admision charge so you didnt pay money to see stolen artifacts per se. However they are just that, stolen artifacts. I'm sure the Hellenic Ministry of Culture might have a different view.....just sayin.

Skyride is currently engaging in dubious business practices. The owners of some dz's have engaged in dubious legal, business, and personal practices in the past. That's the difference.

Wendy W.

The argument of current and past practices is a moot point when people lambast Skyride yet have no problem with using equipment and aircraft that could only have been paid for with dirty money. Just because it is the past doesnt make it anymore wrong than things that may or may not be happening in the present.

buddy, you are well on your way to lift ticket. unfortunately it can only be awarded to non lackeys...

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[RIGGER160 0]

Awww shucks. Oh well. I will still have fun jumping at our fun DZ.

Blue Skies on friday good sir!

[lancefrazier 0]

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ok class,

extra credit time!

i'll buy anyone a lift ticket at their home dz if they can tell me what my point is...

the answer "defending skyride" will get you after school detention!

Lance I think I see your point.

A crime commited 200 years ago and a crime commited today have a pretty big thing in common. THEY ARE BOTH CRIMES. Plain and simple. Peoples acceptance to brushing off the past and that it doesnt matter is a clear example of how many moral compasses around here need a tune up.

Wendys example of how she didnt do anything wrong was a perfect example how so many people fail to see things clearly. I'm sure she is an outstanding person and model citizen however she failed to see the fact that she propagated the acceptance of visiting stolen artifacts. If she would have done a 1 second search she would have seen that there has been a debate over them since they were put on diplay in 1816, the Greeks want there shit back.....but sick burn on them cuz those things were in the past right?

So do I get extra credit Lance? I will be down in cedartown this friday if i did get it right....

you make me proud!

to hell with skyride!

let's talk about cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, and bad logic.

i'm sorry to make an example out of wendy, it just presents itself perfectly. and she rendered it up for our review.

at the very moment she was admiring those antiquities, the greeks were demanding their return. they were stolen. wendy paid someone to see them. she was complicit in the crime. is she a criminal?

nope!

in my eyes, the theft of those antiquities were a very remote concern to her. basically anecdotal. by her own admission (which i take no issue with) she is just a geek.

we are just "lackeys".

the comparison of skyride/it's owners/affiliates/staff to drug traffickers and slavers is too ridiculous to even qualify as slanderous. mark, does bill know you are typing gunk like that on dz.com on company time?

to condemn asc staff and fun jumpers for an issue that is of NO MORAL IMPERATIVE TO THEM WHATSOEVER, is unfounded. as i have said before, we are defending our dropzone from muckraking, inaccurate assertions and general dumb shit. we don't defend cary, because he doesn't need or ask us us to.
yes, we work for him, in the same sense that the stockboys at walmart works for the deceased sam walton.

everyone has opinions about skyride, even me. calling ASC staff "skyride lackeys" or "thieves" or other derogatory names because they take great pride in the dropzone they work/jump at is ridiculous. if any of you haters think the "skyride supporters" here have a vested interest, or any concern for that matter, in the business practices, (which, for the record, have improved incredibly) of skyride, they are wrong.

if you want to take the tack that we are some how complicit by association, take a real hard look at the corporate structure of the company you work for, the holdings of all your mutual funds, and for that matter the parent company of every business you spend money with. furthermore, you'll want to check the registration of every plane you jump from, even at your "anti skyride" dropzone. the moral high-ground is a slippery terrain...

We do not create or control websites. We jump.

i assure chris spence that a large part of his wardrobe is derived from third world sweatshops. if you are looking for the moral highground, you'll find it only when you are naked, buddy.

pilot dave, i don't mind you accepting the kind of behavior you are not morally offended by as it relates to skydiving. can i ask for the same courtesy? if you still don't understand my point, i'll pm you my # and i'll walk you through it.

jeff napier, prudence would guide you to a more restrained demeanor. you've proven over and over that you're not concerned with the well being of the sport, it's students, or you reputation as a jumper.
you are still, despite your lies, sabotage and lack of mental focus more than welcome on the only uspa group member, full time, ass kicking good time dropzone serving middle tennessee. i'll still do your recurency jump for free, and others will pay for the slots(there will be video).

billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

i propose that we as skydivers find a cause worthy of our passion. something we can transcend our differences, come together in unison and fight together to defeat.



the tragedy that is cat aids.

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[Bertt 0]

"...a cause worthy of our passion...". How about one website per actual dropzone ?

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[johndh1 0]

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billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

No, it's not. His life is now his wife and his family; skydiving itself has taken a back seat perhaps, but his knowledge and sense of "right v. wrong" is something that he still chooses to advocate on here (however brash it may be at times), considering his close involvement with the consequences of what Skyride did on a smaller scale in the Southeast earlier on.

Each and every time anyone wants to throw out the fact that somehow Skyride's biggest and most vocal opponent has no say because of the fact that Billy may not jump as much as they themselves do currently, or as much as he used to, let me remind them of a few facts which DO give Billy the credibility to speak out - jump numbers within the past month be damned:

Among his accomplishments while in this sport, he has received
the Falcon,
the Double Falcon,
the Eagle,
the Double Eagle,
the 36W Silver Falcon,
the 64W Golden Eagle,
Star Crest Recipient,
Star Crest Soloist,
4-Stack CRW,
8-Stack CCR,
8-Stack CCS,
12FF,
Gold Wings,
PRO 120,
1997 Alabama 40-way RW,
1997 Georgia 64-way RW (with only 400 jumps),
1997 New Jersey 100 way RW,
1999 New Jersey 101 way RW,
1999 Virginia 88-way RW,
2003 Alabama 10-stack CRW,
2005 South Carolina 30 Diamond CRW,
8 separate Deaf World Record skydives,
22 Demos,
Earned a slot on the 300 way World Record attempt but broke his arm a month before they were to begin and gave up his slot.
He is the only person to hold the Alabama 40-way and 10-stack CRW, made his first 100-way with only 500 jumps, and earned his slot on the 300-way attempt before he had 600 jumps.


You can say he's crude, loud, obnoxious, a thorn in your side, and even that he has terrible breath and farts in elevators, but you CAN'T say Billy's only life is spouting about that organization on this newsgroup.

Roll Tide Roll

[lancefrazier 0]

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billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

No, it's not. His life is now his wife and his family; skydiving itself has taken a back seat perhaps, but his knowledge and sense of "right v. wrong" is something that he still chooses to advocate on here (however brash it may be at times), considering his close involvement with the consequences of what Skyride did on a smaller scale in the Southeast earlier on.

Each and every time anyone want's to throw out the fact that somehow Skyride's biggest and most vocal opponent has no say because of the fact that Billy may not jump as much as they themselves do currently, or as much as he used to, let me remind them of a few facts which DO give Billy the credibility to speak out - jump numbers within the past month be damned:

Among his accomplishments while in this sport, he has received
the Falcon,
the Double Falcon,
the Eagle,
the Double Eagle,
the 36W Silver Falcon,
the 64W Golden Eagle,
Star Crest Recipient,
Star Crest Soloist,
4-Stack CRW,
8-Stack CCR,
8-Stack CCS,
12FF,
Gold Wings,
PRO 120,
1997 Alabama 40-way RW,
1997 Georgia 64-way RW (with only 400 jumps),
1997 New Jersey 100 way RW,
1999 New Jersey 101 way RW,
1999 Virginia 88-way RW,
2003 Alabama 10-stack CRW,
2005 South Carolina 30 Diamond CRW,
8 separate Deaf World Record skydives,
22 Demos,
Earned a slot on the 300 way World Record attempt but broke his arm a month before they were to begin and gave up his slot.
He is the only person to hold the Alabama 40-way and 10-stack CRW, made his first 100-way with only 500 jumps, and earned his slot on the 300-way attempt before he had 600 jumps.


You can say he's crude, loud, obnoxious, a thorn in your side, and even that he has terrible breath and farts in elevators, but you CAN'T say Billy's only life is spouting about that organization on this newsgroup.

irrelevant!

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[LoneFlyer 0]

Isn't everyone tired of speculating about whether or not this cat aids boogie gave money to the HS or animal shelter? My girlfriend works for the paper and she thought it would be a cute feel good story. so interview set up to have HS rep go and receive the proceeds from the event holders plus photographer to get the hand off. Or if it didn't happen, maybe it'll be a good story about fraud. either way it ought to be fun.
Chuck, TC, Mike at outlaw, you shouldn't have tried to keep this wonderful event from the public. My old army buddy works in the city attorney's office and he loves animals too so he thought he'd come along.

TC, you slay me. Loving roadkill. Reminds me of my three year old nephew, eating his boogers which freaks my sister in law out.

[RIGGER160 0]

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"...a cause worthy of our passion...". How about one website per actual dropzone ?

That is your response to "a cause worthy of our passion".....I'm not even gonna touch that one. To easy.

[johndh1 0]

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billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

No, it's not...

irrelevant!

No, it's not. Only presenting you with the facts to counter your statements (both here and those made in the past by your ilk).

The fact that it may not be directly connected to "WTF can we do about Skyride" doesn't matter - there's little more to be said on that subject anyway. Those who support SR (for now), will continue to do so like some lunatic cult (that is, until they see it is in their best interest to defect), and those who are against, will continue to be wiser than most.

I'll remind you that YOU are the one who took it away from the Skyride facts/myths to personally recognizing Billy Vance.

Roll Tide Roll

[RIGGER160 0]

Well at least you try to use facts to back things up. Very few and far between on here.

[johndh1 0]

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Well at least you try to use facts to back things up. Very few and far between on here.

Thanks. I actually think that there are a lot of facts presented on here, on either side of this matter, which are correct - the difference is that sense of right versus wrong I mentioned.

Roll Tide Roll

[parabuteo 0]

I have to say. This is one of the best discussions I've seen on this topic yet. Its actually addressing the real nature of the skyride issue, not just blasting attacks at individuals involved.

Now as i've stated i'm not a advocate of the skyride system. But I side with lance on the issue of condeming the jumpers and staff at the skyride DZ's. Would you say that anyone that works at the "drug money" funded DZ's are accomplices to selling drugs or murder, or any violent crime that the drug business spawns. Believe me the drug business kills alot of people. Alot more than nonrefundable gift certificates. So I ask. Are the jumpers and staff members at those DZ's scum bags as well? There have been some awesome points from both sides made in the last couple of pages though. Like I said, i'm finally impressed with the quality of conversation in this thread. ( with exception of a few)

Now i would like to address a previous post. Someone said that the difference in skyride and past criminal activity in this sport is the fact that skyride hurts skydivers and the previous activities did not. How in the world can you qualify this statement? Please explain how skyride is hurting skydivers and the sport of skydiving but illegally transporting drugs did not. I would love to hear a good answer for that.
I would have to argue it the opposite way. The negative publicity of a skydiving operation being used to support a trade that promotes death and violence is way worse than the publicity of a fraudulent system of skydiving websites. You actually made the point yourself. Only skydivers know about skyride. Therefore its a internal conflict. Not a issue that the mass population of this country would give a shit about. However......drug trafficing thrust the world of skydiving head on into the headlights of the government, media, and general public. Skyride is an internal issue. It is confined within the walls of the sport. Its blemishes are only noticed by skydivers and a few ripped off whuffos. Drug trafficing is a blemish seen by the entire world especially the government. which I think we all agree is the biggest threat to our sport. Dont believe me????????? try this........ask any whuffo or government official what they think of when they think about skydiving and I guarantee you a high percentage will mention transporting drugs. Very few will say bogus gift certificates. Just think about it.

Also, if you think skyride does more damage to our sport than drug trafficing. Then think about this......How many ripped off whuffos does it take to equal the price of one human life that was taken as a result of those drugs that were brought here by skydivers? Bogus gift certificates are worse than the lives torn apart and all the violent crime spawned from the effects of those drugs???? YOu cant seriously believe that? As a matter of fact the hell with this sport. Lets look beyond that. So what if skyride hurts the sport. Drug trafficing hurts our society, lives, and families. i would love to hear some other thoughts on how these two skydiving black eyes compare.

The moderator was right. You cant compare child sex slave to gift certificates. Just like you cant compare gift certificates to drug trafficing.

I think if you are going to boycott skyride DZ's and start huge threads on the internet about them on the basis of ethics..............Well hell, its only fair to boycott some other DZ's as well. will your ethics inspire a thread titled "what can we do about dirty bloodmoney DZ's"

Now like I said I'm not supporting skyride. I dont like it. But I can not find enough hipocracy in my being to justify crucifying them and sparing others

[davelepka 4]

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The moderator was right. You cant compare child sex slave to gift certificates. Just like you cant compare gift certificates to drug trafficing.

Maybe not, but let's keep in mind what we're talking about.

Maybe a guy does run some drugs. Then he gets busted, and does some time. When he gets out, he opens a DZ, which he eventually builds into one of the biggest and best in the country. At the same time, this guy develops marketing and management ideas that allow DZs to grow, and realize great profits, and he shares these ideas with other DZOs.

Is it wrong to patronize his DZ? After he paid his debt to society (he did the time), and repaid his debt to skydiving by investing all his time and money into a DZ, and then helping other DZOs to succeed? I think not.

If the Skyride crew would cease and desist, repay society or skydiving in one way or another, then give it a decade to blow over, I would jump at their place if they then opened a legit DZ.

[fincher 0]

what in the world is the roadkill reference???? are you high?

i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down

[RIGGER160 0]

Sure he did his time. But how did he open the DZ? A small buisness loan? Or drug money? Good for him if it was a small buisness loan. This country needs more of that right now. However if drug money was used to help out in the beggining then how is it any different?

[Bertt 0]

Easy? The guy that owns a dropzone at Clarksville has a website called Skydive Huntsville - no dropzone there; Skydive Jackson - no dropzone there; Skydive Birmingham - no dropzone there; Skydive Montgomery - no dropzone there. I won't list them all, but as you can see, it's really a thorny problem that seems to confuse people looking for a place to make their first jump.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[parabuteo 0]

well in alot of ways i agree with you. I have to ask though. Does skyride owe a debt to society? Does it owe a debt to the sport? I would say its airplanes, new modern student gear, and its real locations are kind of paying the sport back. They have wronged some whuffos. I guess they could pay them back. thats the only debt I see them oweing. In no way should it equal that of drug trafficing. If you lost a loved one or multiple loved ones that got caught up in that lifestyle, you probably wouldnt feel the debt was repaid and it would take alot longer than a decade to blow over. If my loved one was ripped off 200 bucks It would blow over in about two too four weeks.

Funny though that you said "a decade to blow over" was that meant as a pun? if you bring over blow for a decade then you have to give it a decade to blow over. lol

peace, love, and herpes everyone

[lancefrazier 0]

i certainly did, to good effect i might add!

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[pilotdave 0]

I see you haven't been around long. Do you know the history behind anything you're talking about? Do you know how many dropzones and skydivers have been wronged by skyride? Do you have any idea what dropzones were started with drug money and when?

Skyride steals from skydivers. They have a long history of it. No, they don't come to your home and take money out of your wallet. They steal intellectual property, business (through lies and deception), etc, etc, etc. There are plenty of references where you can look up the details of what they've done and what they continue to do.

You make it sound like there are all kinds of dropzones in the drug dealing business. That's not the case. There are however a few dropzones affiliated with a company that has profited by stealing from other dropzones and skydivers and through tricking OUR customers and potential skydivers.

Research who you're talking about and I think your opinion will either change. Or maybe you already jump at one of their dropzones?

Dave

[lancefrazier 0]

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The moderator was right. You cant compare child sex slave to gift certificates. Just like you cant compare gift certificates to drug trafficing.

Maybe not, but let's keep in mind what we're talking about.

Maybe a guy does run some drugs. Then he gets busted, and does some time. When he gets out, he opens a DZ, which he eventually builds into one of the biggest and best in the country. At the same time, this guy develops marketing and management ideas that allow DZs to grow, and realize great profits, and he shares these ideas with other DZOs.

Is it wrong to patronize his DZ? After he paid his debt to society (he did the time), and repaid his debt to skydiving by investing all his time and money into a DZ, and then helping other DZOs to succeed? I think not.

If the Skyride crew would cease and desist, repay society or skydiving in one way or another, then give it a decade to blow over, I would jump at their place if they then opened a legit DZ.

would you extend the same warm welcome to a slaver who opened a dz after paying his debt?

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[johndh1 0]

I wanted to break down your post piece-by-piece, by statement, but I cannot using all the symbols parting it out and responding, so I'll have to just make a few statements:

If you knowingly participate in a crime, you are still guilty, either legally or morally, whether or not you are caught.

As far as the questionably-funded dz's you mentioned, how much is innuendo and how much is proven fact? (Let me say, I know exactly what you are talking about, however, I have never seen proof-positive as I have in the SR case, firsthand. Also, I do not frequent the dz's in question. I know a lot more than you think I know).

Non-refundable gift-certificates are a crime, though I will give it to you not as severe as those from drugs or murder or violence (or child sex trade, as has been ridiculously compared); nevertheless, they should be dealt with.

Your argument about some supposed past drug operations in skydiving do not concern me at the moment (nor do those alleged in that movie a few years back concerning the CIA involvement in heroin-trafficking in the 70's) This is not to give them a free pass, but rather one to ask that we keep this conversation more contemporary.

Sadly, if only skydivers knew about Skyride, this whole thing would be a moot point because it wouldn't exist. It is not an internal conflict, but rather, one which affects the general public of those who know no better than to click on the nearest website pointed out on "Skydive North Pole," only to find that Santa...err, Satan lives just outside of Cedartown, Georgia.

I honestly don't think that when you ask government official about skydiving that they will pointedly make issue of drug trafficking, but if you'll contact the Georgia Attorney General, the most recent experience IS the fraud involved with one particular operation. Can you name another skydiving operation that has the same notoriety?

The remainder of your argument appears to me being that Skyride may be bad, but drugs and child-sex are worse!

For once, I am at a loss for words...

Roll Tide Roll

[lancefrazier 0]

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I see you haven't been around long. Do you know the history behind anything you're talking about? Do you know how many dropzones and skydivers have been wronged by skyride? Do you have any idea what dropzones were started with drug money and when?

Skyride steals from skydivers. They have a long history of it. No, they don't come to your home and take money out of your wallet. They steal intellectual property, business (through lies and deception), etc, etc, etc. There are plenty of references where you can look up the details of what they've done and what they continue to do.

You make it sound like there are all kinds of dropzones in the drug dealing business. That's not the case. There are however a few dropzones affiliated with a company that has profited by stealing from other dropzones and skydivers and through tricking OUR customers and potential skydivers.

Research who you're talking about and I think your opinion will either change. Or maybe you already jump at one of their dropzones?

Dave

dave,

could you find the time to answer the questions i asked you earlier?

or are you too busy attacking people who agree with you in principle, but not in method?

parabuteo,

disliking skyride will not be enough, you'll have to take the party line, and never ever agree with us....

sorry...

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[fincher 0]

what about a murderer?

what if O.J. simpson opened a DZ? Wait.....he does run a couple in tennessee right?..........oh nevermind I was thinking of someone else.

i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down