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bocabruce1

CYPRES saved my life!

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[replyIf it wasn't for busted up older than dirt rig and it's worn out lines not allowing me to flare....



What does you mean the rig and worn lines wouldn't allow you to flare? Old rigs and worn lines doesn't make it so you can't flare.

If you want to provide a link to the story, that's fine, I'm just curious why you think that.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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[replyIf it wasn't for busted up older than dirt rig and it's worn out lines not allowing me to flare....



What does you mean the rig and worn lines wouldn't allow you to flare? Old rigs and worn lines doesn't make it so you can't flare.

If you want to provide a link to the story, that's fine, I'm just curious why you think that.



A old worn canopy with lines that have stretched too much would definitely affect the flare.

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[replyIf it wasn't for busted up older than dirt rig and it's worn out lines not allowing me to flare....



What does you mean the rig and worn lines wouldn't allow you to flare? Old rigs and worn lines doesn't make it so you can't flare.

If you want to provide a link to the story, that's fine, I'm just curious why you think that.


A old worn canopy with lines that have stretched too much would definitely affect the flare.

Thank you captain obvious ;). (sorry, couldn't help it). Affecting the flare and allowing a person to flare is not the same. Perhaps it's semantics and nothing more. Beyond that, even a crummy canopy can land a person fine if it's flared correctly. People make mistakes or just by not real fault of their own, manage to hit the ground in a shattering manner.

Lines shrink by the way.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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That right there tells me you do not understand the purpose of a cypress. Your statement is FALSE. It may save your life but there is NO guarantee it will fire or even fire in time. And it can still kill you as well.


That right there tells me you didn't do more than skim my post. I know it's false. And what I said was I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT THIS. Even though I won't jump without a Cypres.

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A few weeks ago a guy brings his rig over and asks if I think he should be "worrying at all" about it.
The cable housing ferrule had broken off completely, the housing was crushed and sharp, the cutaway cable had "saw" marks in it. I'd say the odds were good that in the event of a cutaway, he'd have pulled his cutaway handle and it would have cut away from the cable.
After telling him that I didn't think he should jump it, he responds with "I'm gonna jump the two tickets I've got. I should be OK."
The comment about PC's is spot-on as well. It's not entirely common to see someone packing a collapsible PC that "snaps" it through the air to see if it inflates. If the kill line has stretched, the color in the window might no longer be visible but the PC will still inflate. Some don't check it, some freak if they can't see the color, others don't check either one.
Look at the early posts in this thread. Some folks don't know where AAD's fire, why they fire when they do, etc. I got a PM from one of the posters in this thread asking me to "prove an AAD can kill you" because it's "only a life-saving device."

I'm grateful to a rigger taking half a rainy day when I was a student, to explain all parts of my rig, making me learn to walk out my lines, disconnect my three-ring, showed me an old CYPRES and explained it, showed me where to look for wear, etc. It's very much worth it to buy lunch for a good rigger, and ask him/her to give you a solid tour of your gear. What you learn in the FJC isn't anywhere near what you eventually need to know. And what you need to know can't be taught in the FJC.

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Just an example, you and your 4way team go away to train for a week and half way through, for what ever reason you normal rig becomes unavailable, maybe lost the main after a chop. Your team mate offers you his spare rig only it has no AAD. Do you refuse to jump. Is that the end of your teams training camp, fly home early better luck next year?


The real answer is I would decide then (and might very well refuse to jump), but for the sake of the post, let's say the answer is yes, I would refuse to jump, and that would be the end of our team's training.

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That is called device dependancy and that person is exactly 100% device dependant, no AAD no jump.
That is not making a choice, that is fear making the choice for the person.
Whats wrong with making a risk assessment of the type of jump you're planning on doing, look at the skill level of the other participants in that dive, is it well planned, dirt dived, creeped, can everyone on this dive track well?
If the answer is no then perhaps you should not be on that jump regardless of whether or not you have and AAD.


But you see, some of us make the risk assessment that we CAN'T control everything. The jump may be well-planned, we all may be able to track far and in differing directions, and something may STILL go wrong. Maybe some freeflier not on my team exits 1 second after I do, and then comes crashing into me.

In those situations, a Cypres may not matter or may not save my life. But it might. After considering the factors, my assessment is that a jump without a Cypres is riskier than a jump with a Cypres. So yes, 99.9% of the time, if I did not have an AAD, I would not jump.

(If you're going to ask further, what would happen if all AADs stopped working, the answer is I would still jump, but that, to me, is a different question.)

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I trust my ability to asses risk and act in the correct way to save my life when required more that a device with no real intelligence.



So do I. And that includes BEFORE getting on the plane.

I am in no way advocating one depend on an AAD in the sense of acting in a riskier manner, or waiting around for it to fire. But I think it's possible to refuse to jump without an AAD, and not do those things.

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That right there tells me you do not understand the purpose of a cypress. Your statement is FALSE. It may save your life but there is NO guarantee it will fire or even fire in time. And it can still kill you as well.


That right there tells me you didn't do more than skim my post. I know it's false. And what I said was I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT THIS. Even though I won't jump without a Cypres.


Whoops, I did read it, just misread it obviously. Can you tell Cypress' and their purpose are a sore spot for me:P

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If you would rather abandon your teammates than jump a rig without an AAD then yes you are device dependent. I can understand this choice when there is no on else depending on you but once you commit to a team then you have to accept that not everything will always be perfect when you jump. If you can't accept this then I hope you never get on a team because who knows, your team mate may very well accidently kick you in the head on exit and knock you out and your Cypress may fail to fire.

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[replyIf it wasn't for busted up older than dirt rig and it's worn out lines not allowing me to flare....


What does you mean the rig and worn lines wouldn't allow you to flare? Old rigs and worn lines doesn't make it so you can't flare.
If you want to provide a link to the story, that's fine, I'm just curious why you think that.
Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread, but basically not knowing any better, for me to get full flare my hands had to be by my knees. Like i said not knowing any better about canopy design and control I just assumed that was normal? And I had landed it many times with my hands in between my legs by my knees thinking it was "normal" and when it mattered and my hands didn't make it down to my knees I am in hot and just caught my right foot and snapy. Mind you if i had PLFed it i would be ok, a bit black and blue but ok..and I n00bed it by having my legs apart.

OK back on topic, this has been an very enlightening thread. I see where some people come from with their "distrust" of the Cypres and i see where some feel it is better than nothing. I guess it's a lot like your cars ABS. If used properly and maintained properly it will greatly increase your odds of survivability. BUT it has to be used properly and maintained.

Cool! :)
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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If you would rather abandon your teammates than jump a rig without an AAD then yes you are device dependent. I can understand this choice when there is no on else depending on you but once you commit to a team then you have to accept that not everything will always be perfect when you jump. If you can't accept this then I hope you never get on a team because who knows, your team mate may very well accidently kick you in the head on exit and knock you out and your Cypress may fail to fire.


This is semantics.

Of course I accept that my teammate, the pilot, another skydiver, my own stupidity, or something else might kill me. I do what I can to minimize that risk. Including jumping with an AAD.

Any team I would be on would be told I wouldn't jump without an AAD, it's not like I would hide it. And if they don't want to jump with me, that's up to them.

For the record, at an SSL competition, one of my teammate's was jumping a rig with a freefly tuck-tab. It came out, and she was a bit uncomfortable with it. The cameraguy told her not to worry about it, it just made it like a regular hacky, but she was still uncomfortable. Ultimately, after one go around, we got it fixed, and we jumped, but had she not gotten it fixed and decided she was uncomfortable jumping the rig like that, I would have supported her decision to ride the plane down. To me, the most important thing is that every teammate is satisfied with their gear. I would rather forfeit the chance of a medal than have a teammate jump with misgivings.

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I suppose my view is bit different. I did my AFF with an Astra then spent the next 100 jumps without an AAD. Did eventually end up purchasing one and yes I prefer to jump with one but will not ground myself solely becuase I do not have it. Personally I think everyone should be comfortable jumping without one and have. Skydiving is a dangerous sport but it's also about personal responsibility for your life, not dependence on devices.

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I presume you performed practice flares with this rig and learned at altitude that to fully flare you needed gorilla-length arms.

If you find yourself in that position again, try an old F111 landing trick. Take a couple of wraps of brake line around each hand when you enter the landing pattern. This will effectively shorten the length of the line and give you a shorter, stronger flare stroke.

Practice at altitude. You don't want to discover the stall-point at landing.

Nova
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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I presume you performed practice flares with this rig and learned at altitude that to fully flare you needed gorilla-length arms.

If you find yourself in that position again, try an old F111 landing trick. Take a couple of wraps of brake line around each hand when you enter the landing pattern. This will effectively shorten the length of the line and give you a shorter, stronger flare stroke.

Practice at altitude. You don't want to discover the stall-point at landing.

Nova


Nova, bro...yeah! :)Information, asking dumb questions could have saved me a broken bone.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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Your fear is in control of you and you are making excuses for it.



Your cool and all. I choose to not jump without a AAD. Yea i know you think im a little bitch that needs to be coddled but you dont have a damn clue about other's situations. If I were to die my 3 kids and there mother would be broke and not live life as well. Same for my workers and there family's. I will take every precaution to make sure that doesn't happen. I look at dive's different than alot of people. I analyze situations more than alot of jumpers. If i get hurt i can still take care of shit but if i die so does my company and other peoples life styles. Now if you'll excuse me Im gonna go rerap my self in bubble rap in hide in the basement.:S
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Just an example, you and your 4way team go away to train for a week and half way through, for what ever reason you normal rig becomes unavailable, maybe lost the main after a chop. Your team mate offers you his spare rig only it has no AAD. Do you refuse to jump. Is that the end of your teams training camp, fly home early better luck next year? That is called device dependancy and that person is exactly 100% device dependant, no AAD no jump.



If it was me, I'd not jump without the AAD but simply transfer the spare main to my rig, have my reserve repacked. :)

ETA: I could even rent some student gear in the mean time to minimise down time.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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I choose to not jump without a AAD. Yea i know you think im a little bitch that needs to be coddled
I look at dive's different than alot of people. I analyze situations more than alot of jumpers



Not at all, its great that you take a proactive approach to your own safety, If your already doing that then an AAD does not give you significantly much more protection, especially if you only do the odd jump without one. Its a risk sport and if I had as many peoples future dependant on me as you do I would probably not jump at all, AAD or not.

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What you learn in the FJC isn't anywhere near what you eventually need to know. And what you need to know can't be taught in the FJC.



Thats why if you don't look at your whole time in this sport as continued education from the end of your first jump till you quit or die you have the wrong attitude.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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If your already doing that then an AAD does not give you significantly much more protection, especially if you only do the odd jump without one.



It is just one less link in the chain of incidents.
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Its a risk sport and if I had as many peoples future dependant on me as you do I would probably not jump at all, AAD or not.



Thats not an option;) I will jump, but will take almost every precaution I can to make sure I make the safest jump I can.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Your fear is in control of you and you are making excuses for it.



Your cool and all. I choose to not jump without a AAD. Yea i know you think im a little bitch that needs to be coddled but you dont have a damn clue about other's situations. If I were to die my 3 kids and there mother would be broke and not live life as well. Same for my workers and there family's. I will take every precaution to make sure that doesn't happen. I look at dive's different than alot of people. I analyze situations more than alot of jumpers. If i get hurt i can still take care of shit but if i die so does my company and other peoples life styles. Now if you'll excuse me Im gonna go rerap my self in bubble rap in hide in the basement.:S



With so many and so much depending on you perhaps you are being very selfish to skydive at all. You can still die even with a cypress.




Food for thought in a serious way;)

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Your fear is in control of you and you are making excuses for it.



Your cool and all. I choose to not jump without a AAD. Yea i know you think im a little bitch that needs to be coddled but you dont have a damn clue about other's situations. If I were to die my 3 kids and there mother would be broke and not live life as well. Same for my workers and there family's. I will take every precaution to make sure that doesn't happen. I look at dive's different than alot of people. I analyze situations more than alot of jumpers. If i get hurt i can still take care of shit but if i die so does my company and other peoples life styles. Now if you'll excuse me Im gonna go rerap my self in bubble rap in hide in the basement.:S



With so many and so much depending on you perhaps you are being very selfish to skydive at all. You can still die even with a cypress.




Food for thought in a serious way;)


Uhhh never said I couldnt. I know I can die on any skydive no matter how well I do or how much I prepare. But I do what I can to be as safe on every jump that I can. I choose who I jump with and the size of the formation i'm on. I also choose my pull alt., If other on the jump dont like it then I jump with someone else, or by myself. I also jump new gear, and maintain it perfectly. I watch over my gear also (not just pass it off to my rigger). I keep an eye out for who jumps after me and brief them on separation or there dive plan if they are a newer jumper, or a known shitty flyer. I also communicate with everybody on the load if winds are low for a set landing direction if the wind sock is limp, and alot more of other things. I will do almost everything I can do to make my jumps as safe as possible. Not jumping is not an option for me. I jumped before I had kids and my company (my years in sport are not exactly correct, but for this forums purpose they are were they should be), I will continue to jump as long as im able. If that makes me selfish then so be it. I do plenty for others and this is how I give back to myself.:)
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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I suppose my view is bit different. I did my AFF with an Astra then spent the next 100 jumps without an AAD. Did eventually end up purchasing one and yes I prefer to jump with one but will not ground myself solely becuase I do not have it. Personally I think everyone should be comfortable jumping without one and have. Skydiving is a dangerous sport but it's also about personal responsibility for your life, not dependence on devices.


Just to be clear, I don't think it's WRONG to jump without an AAD. It's only that I would probably not do it (and even if I would, I certainly wouldn't blame or think badly if a teammate of mine decided not to).

What I meant previously by semantics is this: if you mean we should not depend on the AAD in the sense that we should not put ourselves in situations where we think, "it's okay, if that happens, the AAD will save me," then I wholeheartedly agree. One should always assume the AAD will fail and plan accordingly.

But despite this assumption and planning, one might still find oneself in a position where an AAD will save one's life. I think everyone can agree that those situations can occur to even the most safety-conscious and meticulous skydiver out there.

If one feels that one jump, or a series of jumps (even if at a competition, or in the midst of serious training) is not worth risking those certain situations, I don't think that's wrong -- it's a personal choice. Nor do I think that's being device-dependent. Rather, I think it's just making a different choice based on perceived risk.

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