Landing direction discretion question.

[popsjumper 2]

Bill did what he thought was the best thing to do.
It was not what he was supposed to do. It was not the right thing to do in this case.

He AND the others landing west should have been having discussions with the DZ about landing patterns.

A planned landing direction negated by the FMD rule? BS. That's anarchy. (Read, "Screw the landing direction plans, I'm landing however I want.)
The screwball first ones were already on the ground. Bill, and everyone behind him, should have landed in the planned direction.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[robskydiv 0]

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I think you might be missing the most important part of what I'm trying to say.

My entire point is that while it's fine for a drop zone to have a rule about landing, what's not fine is to blindly follow that rule to your or somebody else's death. At some point, you absolutely have to look down at the area in question and decide if it's a messed up situation or not.

Even if a drop zone doesn't "have endless room to land," a person is simply being foolish if he's not leaving himself a safe out of some sort. It may not be the perfect landing area or direction, but it most definitely ought to be an alternative to mid-air collisions, broken bones and loss of life. That may even be an area that is normally considered out of bounds if the situation in the main landing area is screwed up enough.

THE most important thing is to land without loss of life and limb and ONLY the pilot can be responsible for that; not the DZ rules.

+1

[shropshire 0]

It would be most helpful, if the DZ Safety briefing guy had give a REASON for ignoring the wind direction and to land in a specific direction.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kimemerson 7]

If a skydiver is the only one in the air at the time then for the most part what he or she does is irrelevant. The wind determining landing direction is - or should be - secondary to traffic setting the landing direction. You are always wrong when you land counter to traffic, assuming other canopies factor in to your landing area. The wind you describe is probably light and variable. "Variable" means it's likely to change, to be something other than what it was earlier. Under these conditions it is absurd and probably irresponsible or plain naive to state that you will land in a Westerly direction - or, for that matter, to tell someone else to do so - because that's what the windsock indicates at the time of the declaration. A huge problem with the way most students are taught is that landing strictly into the wind is stressed whereas landing in any wind is not. Landing upwind is nice and is easiest when the skydiver is new and inexperienced but it isn't a do-or-die situation and should even be avoided under certain circumstances, this being one of them. By building a fear of landing cross or downwind through teaching that only upwind landings are acceptable there is the risk of teaching an inability to handle light and variable winds. When winds are light and variable it would make sense to simply have a responsible DZ person determine landing direction and not allow any variation or interpretations. Canopy pilots should be able to handle cross wind and down wind landings when the winds are light. If they can't then they should consider remedial coaching.

Bill was right to land with traffic. Regardless of the wind sock or of what he was told, Bill would have been wrong to land into traffic. His ability to re-evaluate and to correct is actually an asset in his favor. The yobo who chewed him out needs a good talking to. But that's only because he was able to read the traffic pattern for his load. If a landing direction was agreed on before the jump, and winds were indeed light and variable, and the previous jumpers changed the direction to satisfy the windsock, then they should be held accountable for not keeping to the plan. They should be told that under light and variable conditions a predetermined landing direction cannot be ignored. That doing so jeopardizes everyone.

[Baksteen 84]

Only four people in the air; two students, two experienced jumpers.
Light variable winds, an accuracy event and a set landing direction.

The winds had shifted 180 degrees from the briefing, Jumper 1 landed according to the windsock in order "not to confuse the students who are briefed to land into the wind".
Jumper two landed according to the pattern, in order "not to confuse the students any further, since they are briefed to land according to the pattern".
Student 1, who landed third, had adapted his pattern according to the direction set by jumper 1, resulting in a very close call between him and jumper 2 at perhaps 100 feet..
Student 2 landed off, according to the direction set in the briefing.

Scary shit..

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It would be most helpful, if the DZ Safety briefing guy had give a REASON for ignoring the wind direction and to land in a specific direction.

That they had. It's "the rules over here are that we have a set landing direction" - meaning if you want to land in the main area you stick to that landing direction. You don't like it, you land off.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[kelpdiver 2]

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Where I jump, you are expected to land to the north or the south - period. If you land to the west and overshoot, you may end up on the road. If you land to the east and overshoot, you're going over and could end up in a rather deep irrigation canal. If you land to the north and overshoot, you'll be in trees and/or a fence.

Nevermind the shotguns.

Skydance is pretty good about consistency, outside of the AB. But I think the terrain issues you point out help to encourage that behavior anyway. This weekend to the south, I saw a lot of cross patterns, including a tandem that had to adjust 30 degrees to avoid another tandem on final.

If the locals won't follow their conventions for light + variable, it's setting a bad example for the visitors and low timers, and giving them no right answer.

[jnik99 0]

Doyouwanto, I apologize for generalizing my opinion, but it was just that, an opinion. I was directing it at this situation only, however it may not have seemed that way. In this hypothetical situation all the jumpers landed except for two, Bill and one more that was well behind him. I believe Bill made the correct decision in choosing to land in the same/similar direction as the jumpers before him.

I didn't however discuss evidence or the wind situation, I think you are getting two posts crossed... I also never stated every pilot should choose their own direction, simply that only the pilot can make the right choice. Most of the time that would be to land in the same direction (pattern) that the jumpers before you landed. And I did note "Unless there was a clearly defined safety issue." Obviously, landing in a direction perpendicular to other jumpers on final would be a serious safety concern...

You say "lost their lives because patterns were not fallowed," well if you read the story again, Bill did follow the pattern the other jumpers set, it just happen not to be the one the dz established. If there happened to be other jumpers in the air that Bill had not seen, who knows which direction they would have choosen? It seems like all the jumpers were in the wrong, but Bill made the best decision for that situation, IMHO. Again, please note I am just writing my opinion, it is not intended as advice. I will not and have not offered advice (vice opinion) to skydivers with out first confirming it with an instructor or checking references (like a SIM). I would easily take your (D license) advice over almost all A licensed skydivers...


Bertt--You are completely correct, and I agree, that was something I overlooked. In reference to this hypothetical situation, it was just Bill's life on the line, but in general all jumpers are a risk to all the other jumpers.

Thank you both for your responses, I've learned something here, especially for my next trip to a larger DZ (I typically jump from a C-182 and can track the three other jumpers easily).

[skybill 18]

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Any drop zone that firmly sets the wind direction for the entire day is, in my estimation, doing something wrong.

Maybe it's because I learned to jump at Perris, but I think it's a horrible mistake for anyone to even try to determine the landing direction before getting into the aircraft. Doing that at Perris will almost certainly end in some extremely unfortunate landing situations.

No. The best time to determine landing direction is after you've deployed and have cleared the area around you. Look at the ground, look at the wind indicators, look at the direction people are currently landing. If they don't all agree, then there is something wrong and you need to look for a place to land safely away from where the mess is.

Hi Dennis,
When you said "Perris" you said it all!!! Standing at manifest, the wind sock on the north side is showing wind coming from town, the south side sock is showing wind from the canal!!! They meet in the middle where everyone is landing!!! I watched Johnny Dangerously get his canopy folded up like a dish towel, cutaway and get reserve opening with his feet about one canopy height avbove the hard pan(BTW half way thru watching this event I realized his reserve deployment was "MY PACKJOB!!!)!!! Another time that wind shear was kicking some ass Captain Kaos came thru it about 25' up and it "rotated his canopy" like a helicopter blade and set him down OK "but" what could have happened is frightning!! "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto!!" Yup, interesting hypo sitch on landing direction!! If someone wants to bitch about my choice of landing direction, well lettem' bitch. They can land according to their directive and get a code 3 ride to the hospital while I head for the bar after the sunset dive and for sure we'll toast our fallen comrad with a hearty and healthy,"Him, Him, (you know the rest)."
PS, I concur with your assessment of landing direction determination. Excellent.

PPS, If you don't like the wind direction at Scare-Us-Valley, go 30 yards and you'll find a different one!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out