Landing direction discretion question.

[bikerxxuk 0]

I’ll pose this as a hypothetical question.
It does not relate to any specific incident at any specific DZ.

An ‘A’ licence skydiver (Bill) with 40 jumps goes to a DZ he has not been to before.
Bill gets a full DZ brief that includes being told that the landing direction is North for today. Windsock is mostly agreeing with this but it is wavering.
A couple of 4 ways and a couple of 2 ways go out first, then Bill, then one more solo.
Under canopy Bill watches other jumpers landing below him. He notices that they are mostly landing in a Westerly direction. He looks at the wind socks and they are now pointing firmly to the east confirming that in order to land into the wind he would also have to land in a westerly direction.
All canopies from the 4 and 2 ways are now on the ground already and the canopy behind him is a long way away.
So Bill lines up for a west facing landing square into the wind and lands perfectly a good safe distance from all other canopies.
Back at manifest, Bill gets told off by the guy who did his DZ briefing for landing in the wrong direction. Bill looks at the windsocks that now are pointing South again. He tries to explain but gets told firmly that must do as he is told.

Should Bill have ignored all other information and landed facing North in a side wind or was he right to use his discretion and do what he did?

It's my Natural Arch !

It has nothing to do with pies whatsoever !

[eightate8at8 0]

Do what he did..

If he followed the other groups in front of him, which also did the correct thing, why didn't they get scholded? They didn't and wouldn't!

[jnik99 0]

I would say Bill made the right choice, that decision can only be made by the canopy pilot on approach. Regardless of the DZ brief, when a pilot is in control of a canopy, that is his/her life on the line. Unless there was a clearly defined safety issue that would prevent a landing from West to East (which should have been pointed out in the brief), Bill made a safe landing into the wind as taught.

[quade 3]

Any drop zone that firmly sets the wind direction for the entire day is, in my estimation, doing something wrong.

Maybe it's because I learned to jump at Perris, but I think it's a horrible mistake for anyone to even try to determine the landing direction before getting into the aircraft. Doing that at Perris will almost certainly end in some extremely unfortunate landing situations.

No. The best time to determine landing direction is after you've deployed and have cleared the area around you. Look at the ground, look at the wind indicators, look at the direction people are currently landing. If they don't all agree, then there is something wrong and you need to look for a place to land safely away from where the mess is.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pilotdave 0]

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Maybe it's because I learned to jump at Perris, but I think it's a horrible mistake for anyone to even try to determine the landing direction before getting into the aircraft. Doing that at Perris will almost certainly end in some extremely unfortunate landing situations.

Exactly why different DZs have different rules for these situations. Most northeast DZs choose a landing direction before boarding. Some pick a direction for everyone, some leave it up to each load. But I'm not sure if any (bigger) DZs just leave it as a free for all. We don't usually have major wind shifts over short periods. When it happens, you end up with a load landing crosswind or downwind. People fall down... makes for good pictures.

I understand that might not work out as well at perris. Here though, it sure beats canopies flying in every direction. We also don't have endless room to land, so there's no option of just going somewhere else if you want to land into the wind. It is pretty comical at one really busy DZ which operates multiple otters. On a no wind day, each load picks a landing direction. And sometimes multiple loads are landing together. And it's a fairly small landing area. Fun stuff!
Dave

[skybytch 259]

Hypothetical wind speed?

Every skydiver should be able to safely land in a light crosswind or downwind (under 5 mph or so). If you can't, you might want to get some more canopy control instruction or fly a larger canopy.

Landing safely is a team sport. Avoiding collisions under canopy is far more important than landing into the wind. Chasing the windsock - which lots of people do on days when the winds are light and wind direction is variable - creates chaos in the pattern.

If a particular landing direction is given and the winds are light and variable, follow it, even if you know it means landing cross or downwind. Either that or land way outside the pattern where you won't create an issue for those who are following the predetermined landing direction.

[Snowflake 0]

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Hypothetical wind speed?

Every skydiver should be able to safely land in a light crosswind or downwind (under 5 mph or so). If you can't, you might want to get some more canopy control instruction or fly a larger canopy.

Landing safely is a team sport. Avoiding collisions under canopy is far more important than landing into the wind. Chasing the windsock - which lots of people do on days when the winds are light and wind direction is variable - creates chaos in the pattern.

If a particular landing direction is given and the winds are light and variable, follow it, even if you know it means landing cross or downwind. Either that or land way outside the pattern where you won't create an issue for those who are following the predetermined landing direction.

I would agree except he said that the other jumpers were landing facing west. To me first person down sets the landing pattern trumps a predetermined landing pattern.

[skybytch 259]

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To me first person down sets the landing pattern trumps a predetermined landing pattern.

When jumping at a dz that says "first person down sets the pattern" then I'd agree with you. When jumping at a dz that says "decide the pattern before the plane takes off" then that's what you should follow. If you don't want to, land out and stay out of the way of those who are following the dz's "rules."

The safety of everybody else in the pattern is way more important than you or me landing into the wind.

[JohnDeere 0]

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If you don't want to, land out and stay out of the way of those who are following the dz's "rules."

But no one before him followed the rules. In your post you talked about not going diff. way's and avoiding colision's. Sound like what the OP did. I would have done the same.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[douwanto 22]

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I would say Bill made the right choice, that decision can only be made by the canopy pilot on approach. Regardless of the DZ brief, when a pilot is in control of a canopy, that is his/her life on the line. Unless there was a clearly defined safety issue that would prevent a landing from West to East (which should have been pointed out in the brief), Bill made a safe landing into the wind as taught.

It is obvious you nor bikerxx have seen close friends die because someone decided their needs to land into the wind was more important than the DZ's decision to set a pattern.

You also offered no evidence that the other jumpers were not confronted about their chose of an alternative landing direction.

In varied no wind situations like you described it is imperative that the chosen landing direction is fallowed for the safety of every person in the air. If every canopy pilot chose their own direction as you clearly stated you think is the right way you would not be able to control the fatalities in our sport. If you can not land in side or down wind conditions as you described dont put your ass in the air.

Far greater skydivers than yourself have lost their lives because patterns were not fallowed. With your jump numbers giving this type advice should give those you jump with great concern and pause to be in the air with you. I know i would make sure you were never in the air with myself or any person I cared about. Skygods are born every minute. Gongratulations You just got your wings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[JackC 0]

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The safety of everybody else in the pattern is way more important than you or me landing into the wind.

True. In this hypothetical case, Bill landed the same way everyone else was landing even though it was 90 degrees to the landing direction specified by DZ control. If Bill had gone with DZ control he would have been landing at 90 degrees to everyone else and if there's traffic around, that seems more dangerous to me than getting a bollocking from the CCI. The default and best option is to follow the rules laid down by the DZ provided it is safe to do so but sometimes the safest option is to be just as wrong as everyone else.

[douwanto 22]

I agree with your statement but this is hypothetical right??? If every person before you has landed the same way then don't disrupt the flow. But a blanket statement that only the canopy pilot can determine the correct landing direction for them self is self serving and detrimental to safe landing practices of every skydiver on-site period.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[CornishChris 5]

This sounds about as hypothetical as:

"A friend of mine has a rash on their cock and wants to know what to do about it..."

On a one plane DZ I believe that you made the right decision. It is hard to argue with an experienced CCI when you are new and not confident. I appreciate the comments that jumpers die when they don't follow the pattern but if the whole load lands one direction then that is the direction in which to land, IMHO. Would be interested, hypothetically, to know which DZ this hypothetical situation happened. Hypothetically. In a PM is fine...

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Reginald 0]

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Bill gets a full DZ brief that includes being told that the landing direction is North for today.

Under canopy Bill watches other jumpers landing below him. He notices that they are mostly landing in a Westerly direction. He looks at the wind socks and they are now pointing firmly to the east confirming that in order to land into the wind he would also have to land in a westerly direction.

So Bill lines up for a west facing landing square into the wind and lands perfectly a good safe distance from all other canopies.

Back at manifest, Bill gets told off by the guy who did his DZ briefing for landing in the wrong direction. Bill looks at the windsocks that now are pointing South again. He tries to explain but gets told firmly that must do as he is told.

To boil down a few salient items in your post:

1 You were briefed that the landing direction was to the North.

2 Canopies were landing in several directions (you use the word "mostly" not all).

3 You land in a direction different from what you were instructed to.

4 You are chastised for violating your safety briefing.

What's the problem other than your feelings were hurt? As one of my favorite skydivers says, "Suck it up cupcake."

Just because some people didn't follow the pre-planned pattern does not excuse you from doing so unless everyone landed a different direction. The DZ is right to enforce the preplanned pattern with everyone that violated it, you included. You likely would not know if other people were talked to also but it's a good bet they were.

Sorry but you aren't getting any sympathy from me at this point. It sounds like light and variable winds were the issue. If there is a preplanned direction follow it, even if it means landing cross wind.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Snowflake 0]

Your contradicting yourself. If everyone else on the loads pattern is 90 degrees to the predetermined landing pattern the safest thing to do is to follow them. Otherwise you have people landing in different directions. Let me put it this way. Use the predetermined landing pattern unless everyone before you lands in a different direction.

Edit to add that I made no mention of wind direction or landing into the wind.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Landing direction discretion question.

Can you say that 5 times fast? I can't.
OK, back to our show.

[JackC 0]

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If there is a preplanned direction follow it, even if it means landing cross wind.

Even if it means cutting up everyone else on final?

[rhanold 0]

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Just because some people didn't follow the pre-planned pattern does not excuse you from doing so unless everyone landed a different direction. The DZ is right to enforce the preplanned pattern with everyone that violated it, you included. You likely would not know if other people were talked to also but it's a good bet they were.

+1

Plan the dive and dive the plan - This includes our landings.

[skybytch 259]

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If everyone else on the loads pattern is 90 degrees to the predetermined landing pattern the safest thing to do is to follow them.

We agree that the safest way for more than one parachute to land is in the same direction. What we disagree on is how and when that direction should be established. I think that direction should be established, preferably by a dz local who knows what the winds usually do at that dz, before the load takes off, and that direction should be adhered to as long as there isn't credible evidence that the direction should be changed (ie the winds switched direction and increased in speed).

This allows everyone to preplan their canopy flight and pattern, which we should all be doing regardless of how many jumps we have, what canopy we are jumping and/or what the winds are doing. It's more often that chaos in the pattern is caused by those who wait to decide which way to land until after they've opened than it is for chaos to be created by those who are following the rules the dz has established.

Whether to follow the first guy down regardless of the dz's rules depends on the dz's landing area. At a dz with a landing area free of obstacles, and assuming that everybody on the load is following the first guy down, you're right. It's probably safer to follow the crowd; hopefully whoever set that pattern will be having a discussion with the dz's landing police after everyone is down.

Where I jump, you are expected to land to the north or the south - period. If you land to the west and overshoot, you may end up on the road. If you land to the east and overshoot, you're going over and could end up in a rather deep irrigation canal. If you land to the north and overshoot, you'll be in trees and/or a fence.

Thus we have a rule that in light and variable wind conditions, you land to the south in the main landing area - away from obstacles regardless of what the flags are doing. Seen a few too many people end up in or very close to the trees and fence because the first guy down decided to chase the 1-2 mph winds and land to the north. Then the wind shifts 180 degrees as the rest of the load is landing and the last half of the load ends up going long on a downwind - not a big deal if they're landing to the south (where there are no obstacles), could be a big deal if they're landing in any other direction.

My overall point is that it's safest if everybody follows the rules that have been established at the dz they are jumping at. They likely exist for good reasons, reasons you may not have thought about. If you choose to follow the crowd and ignore the dz's rule, you should expect to hear about it - even if you weren't the one who set that pattern.

Rules about landing direction go against the basic concept that skydiving is about freedom and doing whatever the hell you want in the air. But perhaps eventually all jumpers will understand and accept that landing isn't all about them, and will follow whatever rules are established on every jump. Until then, these conflicts will continue to happen and some of our friends will continue to get injured or dead because someone else didn't follow the rules.

[Bertt 0]

"When a pilot is in control of a canopy, it is his/her life on the line."
I would just like to emphasize one point. That statement is only partly correct. It's actually the canopy pilot's life on the line and everyone else in the same airspace - including people that you might not have seen.
That's the reason for a landing pattern.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[Snowflake 0]

Actually Lisa we don't disagree at all. Lets take AZ for instance. The main landing area is one of two ways. If for some very strange reason everybody landed towards the buildings I would land out. On the other hand at SSM I would follow the majority unless it got to freaky in which case I'd land out. I try to practice "when in Rome...." when I'm at a non local DZ.

Personally I don't care to much about wind direction or speed if it's under 15-20 mph

[Baksteen 84]

Well, if you're going to point out any mistikes Bill has made, how about the good decision?

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lands perfectly a good safe distance from all other canopies.

When in doubt, land it out...

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Tuna-Salad 0]

"Bill" made the right choice by keeping with the flow of traffic. Assuming "Bill" is the last one down and did not chase the wind sock on approach..then it should be his call to land into the wind, cross wind, or down wind. But... what the hell do I know?

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[Reginald 0]

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If there is a preplanned direction follow it, even if it means landing cross wind.

Even if it means cutting up everyone else on final?

Read my whole post don't quote mine it.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[quade 3]

I think you might be missing the most important part of what I'm trying to say.

My entire point is that while it's fine for a drop zone to have a rule about landing, what's not fine is to blindly follow that rule to your or somebody else's death. At some point, you absolutely have to look down at the area in question and decide if it's a messed up situation or not.

Even if a drop zone doesn't "have endless room to land," a person is simply being foolish if he's not leaving himself a safe out of some sort. It may not be the perfect landing area or direction, but it most definitely ought to be an alternative to mid-air collisions, broken bones and loss of life. That may even be an area that is normally considered out of bounds if the situation in the main landing area is screwed up enough.

THE most important thing is to land without loss of life and limb and ONLY the pilot can be responsible for that; not the DZ rules.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver