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flyhi

Toggle Grip

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Looks perfectly fine unless you let go. Takes a little more muscle power perhaps than having all fingers inside the loop, I'll grant you that...

Actually, it is a real "toggle grip", as one would have with a wooden toggle on an some old round canopies or some Para Foils. :)
While not good at all for trying to front riser and hold the brake toggle, such a grip probably wouldn't be intended to be used that way by a jumper.

Looks like the sort of grip one might have if one had to let go of the toggles - to deal with flag rigging or whatever - and then grab the toggle again quickly. I've used that grip that during CRW (when not equipped with toggles that stay well open.) Maybe a good grip if planning to land in water.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.

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I've used a similar grip for the last 100 jumps. My steering lines are too long. Holding the toggle in your fist (not like the pic), w/the line extending between your index/middle fingers, is quite a strong hold. It also effectively shortens your steering lines by 4".

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mattjw916

words can't express how bad an idea that is...

if you know for a fact your control lines are too long, fix it



The canopy was new. It's hard to get together w/my rigger due to distances & schedules. I'll have them shortened at the next repack. My Rigger, w/>35 years in the sport, is the one who taught me how to hold them like that. Someone saw me doing that when landing one day. I offered to let him try to pull the toggle out of my grip. It's a little uncomfortable w/the line sometimes cutting across the hand, but very secure.

Thanks, though.

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I use that grip flying tandem. I was taught to use it by the TE that trained me. It gives me 4" or so more flare stroke before I have to make the pull down to push down transition.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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That is NOT the grip we're discussing, here. Let's try different imagery. Loop a finger through the loop of one toggle, & pull it down a little (on the ground). Take the line above the toggle between your index & middle fingers, right up against the webbing of your hand. Place the loop part of the toggle along your palm, extending out the bottom. Now, close your hand to make a fist. OK. Try pulling that out of your hand. It's not going anywhere.

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I think "two fingers and a thumb" is not the same as what is being talked about here. But even so, it's a good point to have the most secure grip you can on your toggles. I do, and will continue to use a "t" type grip high up on my thick tandem toggles, but I also have my hands in the flaring toggles. For the whole ride because that way I can never forget to take them for landing.

I take a normal full hand grip on my sport rig. And as many will recommend, two fingers only if I use the front loops. I wouldn't want to encourage the OP, or anyone to use anything other than a full grip on their toggles for style points. Dropping a toggle can be serious trouble.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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fencebuster

Bad idea . . . for this reason.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4563431;page=unread#unread



Summary:
Femur, ankle broken after lost toggle. 1.1 wing loading. Non accelerated landing.
2 fingers in toggle, thumb wrapped.
(So it wasn't even an "on top of toggle" grip.)

I'd say the lesson is only to not let go. If you can't hold on to a grip that requires holding on, don't do it.

Even 4 fingers in the toggle will be the same, if the hand isn't jammed far into the toggle, say just with the first 2 finger segments in the toggle. If you get distracted and relax muscle tension, the hand can fall out. And that's one fairly common way to hold a toggle.

The further the toggle is on the hand, the harder it is to slip out. Just the first 2 segments of the fingers, or past the knuckles, or even past the thumb all the way down to the wrist. There are some variations in hand angle that could be relevant too.

It would be interesting for newer jumpers to see photos of different techniques...

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+1. I go for the landing toggles no later then 1500 feet and I have a death grip on both sets of toggles. My friend Ken demonstrated how bad a no flare landing can turn out and he got lucky.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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Ken, (Southern Man) was gripping his toggles with two fingers and his thumb. Four fingers through the toggle locked with thumb is really the only way I would recommend holding the toggles. The "dropped toggle" accidents range from fatal to a femur and ankle as in Ken's case. The ground is very unforgiving of mistakes made near it.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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I had a friend recently get his hand stuck in his dive loop at flare time. Pretty much the same as dropping a toggle. He got away with a compression fracture of a vertebra being his largest injury. Only because it was a wingsuit jump and he had a larger canopy, otherwise much worse.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I watched Ken's accident in horror. We had no idea he had learned to hold his toggles that way. We instruct our students to grab toggles with 4 fingers and lock the thumb, "like your life depends on it." We had Ken gimping around to demonstrate why we train that way and I think the lesson has taken hold. But it was very sad that we had to learn that lesson at Ken's expense.

Good news: He made his first jump last weekend 4 months and 1 week since his ambulance ride.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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Quote

It's hard to get together w/my rigger due to distances & schedules. I'll have them shortened at the next repack.



This is a bad excuse for a bad idea. Dropped toggles are a huge problem, and your best chance for avoiding them is all of your fingers through the toggle with the thumb locking your fingers closed - period, end of sentence.

You won't drop a toggle when things are normal and going as planned. It's when there's some sort of unusual situation on landing that you drop a toggle, the very time when what you think is 'ok' becomes very far from 'ok'.

Your rigger, with 35 years in the sport is a liability in that sense. He's been jumping long enough to remember when toggles were made of wooden dowels, and meant to be held that way. This is also when canopies were MUCH slower, and a dropped toggle was far less of a problem than now. There's a reason that EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER ships their rigs with full-loop fabric toggles, and it's because they're good and they work.

Adjusting your steering lines is not hard or time consuming. Either make the drive to your riggers house and watch him do the work, give your rig to your rigger to take home for the week to do the work and bring it back to you the following weekend, or find another rigger to do the work.

You're making a stupid mistake by using a Band-Aid fix (a shit one) for a small problem that's easy to fix, and can also easily become a huge problem. Get your gear straight, and properly configured for your body type before your next jump.

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My end result of a dropped toggle is in the attached image.
Gripping the toggle with fingers all the way through the loop is important; I learned the hard way.
It was interesting; a former Regional Director from the USPA posted in my incident thread that "dropped toggles don't happen" and it's "just an excuse." People do drop toggles, or rather, they can flip off during a flare if not properly/securely held in place.
Pilfy, I strongly recommend you re-examine your method, just as Dave suggests.

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Thank You. I see your point, & appreciate the effort you took to write that out.

Two seasons ago, when I first got the canopy. I was just about to leave for a jump trip when I got a repack. I'd just figured out how to land the damn thing, & didn't want to mess w/it. Then, last year's repack found me learning that I wasn't that good at untwisting my steering lines. We were hesitant to shorten them because they were so twisted up. I will have them shortened at my next repack. I do have a death grip on them when I'm landing, but guess maybe a moment's distraction could end badly.

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Many tandems instructors flies their canopy like that with students so I don't see how it is dangerous.

Many swoopers at the end of their switch blade or miracle man will opt to grip the toggles like that since it takes time to put the hand thru the toggle.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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gowlerk

I wouldn't want to encourage the OP, or anyone to use anything other than a full grip on their toggles for style points. Dropping a toggle can be serious trouble.



My Toggle grip has been questioned in swoop photo(4,5 with 1 lock) but it has nothing to do with style points. But I am amazed looks is even a consideration(style points) if it is at all. People say swooping is just to look cool but some of my favorite swoops were in the dark or when no one was looking. I hope people do what is safest for them not what looks cool.

I guess I am saying your right if your right but I hope your wrong. ;)

I rarely respond to toggle discussions because of my own grip. But there is more than one way to skin a cat......
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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