mattjw916 2 #26 May 17, 2005 Yes, I do realize that. On the other hand I too have seen a student femur in under a big Navigator so I know it happens. Of course, had that person actually practiced flaring more vs. PLF'ng, she'd still be walking now.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #27 May 17, 2005 QuoteThe only time a PLF could theoretically be useful (especially in Mark's situation - square reserve) is if you stall your canopy 20 feet off the deck. What if the winds do it for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #28 May 17, 2005 Any place not teaching students how to do a PLF before their first solo is, in my opinion, not a good student operation. Also, as someone said earlier, a PLF is a skill that even experienced jumpers can suddenly find quite handy. Once again, I will bring up the incident where I got hurt. Dropped a toggle on a velo 111. The PLF saved my life, got away with a broken heel bone which I think is a result of me doing a less than perfect PLF. 8th jump back after injury, ankle is still sore and no where near 100%. I hook it too high, the canopy plains out and dives. I immediately decide that trying to stick this landing could result in me reinjuring my foot/ankle. I PLF and walk away with a dirt stain on my rig. I got laughed at by my friends for tumbling, but I also got to make the next load. Even on an otter full of experienced skydivers, there are still 23 students. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,050 #29 May 17, 2005 Well, as most people on here will tell you, I can get get pretty wound up about this subject more than just about anything else. 1. You'll use PLF/R's a LOT more in your skydiving career than you will EP's yet PLF's are the most under-taught subject to students. You come to my FJC class and I will make you beg for mercy before it's over. No puss pads or golf clap for doing one or two... I am going to wear you out. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=639628;search_string=plf%20front%20front;#639628 If you're really into abuse, take the parachute packing class. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #30 May 17, 2005 PLF's are fundamental survival skills... there is no excuse for NOT knowing how to do them... once you know how to properly fall in any direction without injury you'll be MUCH better off in more sports than just skydiving....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #31 May 17, 2005 QuoteWhat if the winds do it for you?This is true. That's why I was on a wind hold that lasted for many hours. And many more wind holds. I noticed that some dropzones are too willing to send students up in winds stronger than those I flew in. Anyway, I decided to learn PLF's anyway (even though it appears I was going to be taught this before my "A") I have also heard of students botching up PLF's. I suspect it's best to keep sensory overload down - including classroom too. Spread the training out. I think that death is more common on a botched EP than death from avoiding a PLF under a docile 288sq ft canopy. That's the impression I get from reading the statistics from various sources. [IMPORTANT NOTE: This is only an observation, not gospel.] However, there's a common theme: EVERYONE including the dropzone agrees that it's a good skill to know anyway. (We just all disagree on the importance level and how soon to learn proper PLF) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #32 May 17, 2005 QuoteThat's why I was on a wind hold that lasted for many hours. And many more wind holds. I noticed that some dropzones are too willing to send students up in winds stronger than those I flew in. The winds don't have to be high for the air to be turbulent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #33 May 17, 2005 The winds don't have to be high before the winds come up either. PLFs work. So far I like Bigun's PLF teaching strategy. That even scares me.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #34 May 17, 2005 QuoteSo far I like Bigun's PLF teaching strategy. That even scares me. Me too. And people thought I was tough for spending 45 minutes on PLF's in the peas when I was teaching FJC's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #35 May 17, 2005 sounds like what they used to teach a Benning... i agree, not enough time is spent on PLF training in any modern FJC i've observed... i've talked to students who had only heard the term... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #36 May 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf you’re coming in too fast, because you failed to read the windsock correctly, slide it in And risk tailbone and spine injury. QuoteI didn’t bother teaching Mark to PLF because he weighs 160 pounds (soaking wet) and he was flying a 288 square foot Manta. Will he always be flying a Manta? Even with a manta, and me being 150 lbs geared up, I plf-ed a couple times. Esp the one time I came in downwind and it was too late for me to turn 180 it saved my bacon. After 3 plf's I got up and didn't even have bruises, nothing. Besides scaring the hare I almost landed on top of I don't think a light WL should mean you don't have to learn how to plf. But I'm no instructor... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydivingNurse 0 #37 May 17, 2005 QuoteHowever, there's a common theme: EVERYONE including the dropzone agrees that it's a good skill to know anyway. (We just all disagree on the importance level and how soon to learn proper PLF) The SIM pretty much lays it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxx 1 #38 May 17, 2005 Hi, I think under a highly loaded elliptical canopy it is nearly impossible to do a good PLF (the one you were tought during your progression).. I am speaking of the end of a flare, not a no-flare situation. If you try to direct the force to your feet, then your hips and then your shoulder (is this right? ) you are probably going to hurt yourself badly.. If I see I can't run this thing out (like in a downwind-situation) I try to bring my body and my hip as low as possible to the ground and then slide it out on my butt/side.. This worked everytime. But nevertheless a PLF is a necessary surviving skill.. And if it's only for jumping a 7ft wall while running away from the cops Max Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #39 May 17, 2005 QuoteTrue, everyone including my instructors say it's good to know for emergencies, isn't that a bit like saying EPs are "good to know" because you only need them for emergencies Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #40 May 17, 2005 Quoteso why require a PLF on a jump that would have otherwise been a good landing? Because students very quickly forget about PLFs, even when its drilled into them as part of the course. I've personally witnessed 2 students break ankles/legs because they forgot to PLF; these were students who were within 3 jumps of the FJC where they got to do lots of PLFs. My personal opinion about any of the student training methods are that they don't emphasize the PLF enough. It's taught, but not enough. It is an essential survival skill which will prevent a trip to the hospital. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #41 May 17, 2005 If your Instructors don't teach you how to PLF...Find better instructors. I mean using that logic why bother teaching malfunction training? I mean I have had maybe one FJS have a mal in 12 years. I could always wait till later to teach them how to cutaway A PLF will save your ass. If your DZ does not teach them....Find a new DZ."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #42 May 17, 2005 Max, I would have to dissagree. I watched someone nearly break their back/tailbone trying to slide in a downwinder they couldn't run out. The ground was uneven and he impacted ass first into a depression that he couldn't see due to the grass. I will admit that a highspeed PLF is a little different technique, but anyone who has ever eaten it going down a ski slope at a high rate of speed, should be familiar with the process. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxx 1 #43 May 17, 2005 QuoteI will admit that a highspeed PLF is a little different technique, but anyone who has ever eaten it going down a ski slope at a high rate of speed, should be familiar with the process. I don't know any other technique than the standard PLF, a hip/butt slide or a judo-like rolling out.. So could you please enlight us and describe the technique of a "highspeed PLF" ? TIA, Max Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #44 May 17, 2005 QuoteBecause students very quickly forget about PLFs, even when its drilled into them as part of the course. I've personally witnessed 2 students break ankles/legs because they forgot to PLF; these were students who were within 3 jumps of the FJC where they got to do lots of PLFs Ok, then let me ask you a question? Did you cover their EPs before each one of those jumps? Do you think they forgot those? Maybe students should practice their PLFs before their jump just as they're reviewed on their EPs?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #45 May 17, 2005 I am referring to a "judo-like rolling it out", which is basically a slightly modified PLF. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #46 May 17, 2005 >So could you please enlight us and describe the technique of a "highspeed PLF" ? Begin with the standard PLF body position - feet and knees together, knees cocked off in one direction or another. Put your feet in front of you at about a 45 degree angle, so they contact first. On impact, hit with your feet - sides of your calves - side of your thigh, then stay there on your side as you slide to a stop. Imagine falling on a ski slope with skis unreleased. Picture the position you want to be in - feet facing down the hill sliding on the sides of your boots and your thigh. That's the position you want to slide in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #47 May 17, 2005 Just to be clear: Yes, I covered my EP's before every jump. Yes, I am already doing my PLF's. And, also, based on information that I now know from the dropzone, PLF os something that is going to be taught to me momentarily anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScubaSteve 0 #48 May 17, 2005 Anyone have a good video of this? I have only seen (from ram-air) PLF where the jumper flared late and touched down feet first, feet facing away from direction of travel. with head moving forward over feet and ended in side rolls. It still seemed better than sliding in on butt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #49 May 17, 2005 Quote Ok, then let me ask you a question? Did you cover their EPs before each one of those jumps? Do you think they forgot those? While EPs are a little off topic, I can think of one incident within the last month where an licensed jumper forgot her EPs. Student training should do whatever is needed to ensure that they will respond appropriately to situations that may maim or kill them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #50 May 17, 2005 Quote The PLF is an essential, need to know skill. If you're being taught otherwise, start asking questions. Hear, hear! As far as I am concerned the PLF is as necessary need to know as your cutaway and reserve pull proceedures. It's already saved my ass once durning a fast downwind landing where I flared too early. I got that on tape, hehe Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
