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michaelt

Lodi Facing Million Dollar Lawsuit

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I bet you would have died - and you better believe that the trustee/administrator of your estate would have brought a lawsuit against the DZ.





Again~

Perhaps speculation and discussion pertaining to legal theory should be taken to a thread separate from on one specifically referencing an ongoing lawsuit.

And I don't know about 'the poster above' but in my case as well as many others, you would be incorrect.

It's becoming more & more common for those of us that love the sport and actually understand the personal responsibilities, and accept them...to in writing, forbid such action on our part regardless of the circumstance.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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In my opinion you illustrate how too many lawyers have really screwed up this country.
I disagree with your take on this incident.



It's easier to criticize, hard to fix. Fact remains that across the board, products come out fairly safe and well designed, and problems are addressed quickly.

Back to the main thread - the thread asked "how do you feel about Lodi" and I responded to the statements which I largely perceived as "drop zones can do no wrong" - a statement I clearly disagree with (as well as some of the early posters in the thread).

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And I don't know about 'the poster above' but in my case as well as many others, you would be incorrect.

It's becoming more & more common for those of us that love the sport and actually understand the personal responsibilities, and accept them...to in writing, forbid such action on our part regardless of the circumstance.



I have indeed had that conversation with the people who would be settling my affairs, and have written a "to be opened upon my death" letter that they have in their safe deposit box that confirms my wishes.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I have indeed had that conversation with the people who would be settling my affairs, and have written a "to be opened upon my death" letter that they have in their safe deposit box that confirms my wishes.



I admire your protectiveness of the sport - but my understanding of the law is that the trustee/administrator will be under a fiduciary duty to maximize the value of your estate for the benefit of your heirs, regardless of your wishes (failure to do so would expose them to liability). Moreover, while you can frequently waive your right to sue for some things, I don't believe you can waive the right of others (e.g. your estate) to sue for wrongful death.

Not legal advice, but this is how I recall the workings... No doubt some of you will reply to this as *another example of broken laws in the U.S.* - but think it through and I think you'll realize who benefits from this.

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I admire your protectiveness of the sport - but my understanding of the law is that the trustee/administrator will be under a fiduciary duty to maximize the value of your estate for the benefit of your heirs, regardless of your wishes (failure to do so would expose them to liability). Moreover, while you can frequently waive your right to sue for some things, I don't believe you can waive the right of others (e.g. your estate) to sue for wrongful death.



Are you naive enough to think we believe that? You might not know anyone that has died in this sport...yet, but most of us do, and what you describe doesnt happen. Sure, it might have happened once or twice but certainly isnt the norm. I think you need to go back to law school.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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Of course I can't control the actions of my family from beyond the grave, but I can certainly make my wishes known, clearly and unequivocally, as I have. I'm fortunate in that the people who would most likely be settling my affairs (my parents) are also the people who instilled in me the values of personal responsibility.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Are you naive enough to think we believe that? You might not know anyone that has died in this sport...yet, but most of us do, and what you describe doesnt happen. Sure, it might have happened once or twice but certainly isnt the norm. I think you need to go back to law school.



I don't care what you believe. Perhaps their was no viable lawsuit (i.e. no pull) Perhaps their was no heir around to check the trustee. If you think you're understanding of the legal system trumps mine, I could careless! :P

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With your legal prowess- can you update me/us on how to get a restraining order agaisnt you? I don't want to be anywhere near you should you do something stupid- skydiving or otherwise- as somehow everyone in a 10 mile radius will end up in jail and out of money.

Is there a national blackball list for jumpers?
So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

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With your legal prowess- can you update me/us on how to get a restraining order agaisnt you? I don't want to be anywhere near you should you do something stupid- skydiving or otherwise- as somehow everyone in a 10 mile radius will end up in jail and out of money.



This was a good laugh :P But given that you appearently jump at Lodi.... I may be the least of your problems :ph34r: (and that was a joke, I've heard find things about Lodi Tandem)

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I have indeed had that conversation with the people who would be settling my affairs, and have written a "to be opened upon my death" letter that they have in their safe deposit box that confirms my wishes.



I admire your protectiveness of the sport - but my understanding of the law is that the trustee/administrator will be under a fiduciary duty to maximize the value of your estate for the benefit of your heirs, regardless of your wishes (failure to do so would expose them to liability). Moreover, while you can frequently waive your right to sue for some things, I don't believe you can waive the right of others (e.g. your estate) to sue for wrongful death.

Not legal advice, but this is how I recall the workings... No doubt some of you will reply to this as *another example of broken laws in the U.S.* - but think it through and I think you'll realize who benefits from this.



Unless explicitly stated to the contrary.

I'm more than confident that the wording and the people I designate to interpret it understand my intent.


Wonder how much the heirs would get suing the administrator for not complying with the wishes of a last will...:ph34r:

I can see it now, he wanted to be buried, but the administrator said we could get more money not buying a casket and selling the remains to The Body Farm! B|

You are now speculating about things I've already gotten advise on and put in motion, 'qualifying' your 'opinion' with ...not legal advise. :S

Are you really a mouthpiece, or just playin' one on the Internet? :ph34r:


As far as the Skydiving end of it, you don't even know what you don't know yet.
Chill out, get to know the game and the players before putting a soapbox down.

It's the lure of 'easy money' attitude & mind set that shade the legal profession, and make thing harder than they need to be.

Shakespeare was right~
"The first thing we do," is "kill all the lawyers".










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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If I was dzo, I would never run jump run this way...that said I have a question for our lawyer in skydiver's clothing:

Your profile says you have about 50 jumps and an A license...a potential tail striker in the making.

You're on a load doing a hop and pop. The plane gets over the DZ, and the pilot turns on the green light...no cut, no flaps and you are clearly still in a full climb...what do you do?

Methane Freefly - got stink?

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Here we go again... :ph34r:

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Wonder how much the heirs would get suing the administrator for not complying with the wishes of a last will...



If the administrator let a suit eclipse the statute of limitations against a DZ that owned a lot of planes, probably a TON of coin...

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You are now speculating about things I've already gotten advise on and put in motion, 'qualifying' your 'opinion' with ...not legal advise. :S



Perhaps you don't realize the estate laws and duties vary state by state. I see you are in Texas, i am not.


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Are you really a mouthpiece, or just playin' one on the Internet?



Comments like this make it seem like I have a stake in the game. The only interest I have in the outcome of the lawsuit is the secondary affect it will have on the safety practices adopted by the DZs I jump at.



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As far as the Skydiving end of it, you don't even know what you don't know yet.
Chill out, get to know the game and the players before putting a soapbox down.



AND BACHING! Thanks for making my ENTIRE POINT. I don't know a lot about skydiving, even though i've been *told* things by hypocritical persons such as yourself!

I'm asking people like you to look after people like me, understanding that WE DON"T KNOW WHAT WE DON'T KNOW - and your attitudes are "we told it to you the other day."

You simultaneously tell us that:

1) We can't know things
2) We are solely responsible for knowing things

Lovely!

Oh yeah, and across the board, salespersons are far scummier than lawyers. Just thought I'd throw that in ;)

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If I was dzo, I would never run jump run this way...that said I have a question for our lawyer in skydiver's clothing:

Your profile says you have about 50 jumps and an A license...a potential tail striker in the making.

You're on a load doing a hop and pop. The plane gets over the DZ, and the pilot turns on the green light...no cut, no flaps and you are clearly still in a full climb...what do you do?



I've never been in a plane such as this, so I can't imagine what that would like like.

But, to be honest, prior to this thread debate, I probably would have jumped assuming the pilot knew what he was doing. Now, I'll probably ask and risk getting yelled at by the experienced jumpers.

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Of course I can't control the actions of my family from beyond the grave, but I can certainly make my wishes known, clearly and unequivocally, as I have. I'm fortunate in that the people who would most likely be settling my affairs (my parents) are also the people who instilled in me the values of personal responsibility.



I'll go after them from the grave.

But no need - my mom faces this same sort of BS in the mountaineering world and fully understands the notion of 'shit happens.' With weather and unstable ice and other people on the mountain, they have to deal with more variables beyond control than we do.

Speuci - it would be very difficult for a trustee to successfully litigate without the cooperation of the family and friends of the deceased. In any state.

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If I was dzo, I would never run jump run this way...that said I have a question for our lawyer in skydiver's clothing:

Your profile says you have about 50 jumps and an A license...a potential tail striker in the making.

You're on a load doing a hop and pop. The plane gets over the DZ, and the pilot turns on the green light...no cut, no flaps and you are clearly still in a full climb...what do you do?



I've never been in a plane such as this, so I can't imagine what that would like like.

But, to be honest, prior to this thread debate, I probably would have jumped assuming the pilot knew what he was doing. Now, I'll probably ask and risk getting yelled at by the experienced jumpers.



You should know prior to boarding the plane whether or not this will be a cut jump run for a hop & pop. You should have made that choice on the ground. Nothing to ask in the plane. Either you jump or you don't.

I have many hop & pops both with a cut and without. Personally I see no problem exiting without a cut. I believe that's a decision each individual jumper should make after being informed of the hows and whys. Whether or not to accept the additional risk is a personal choice. Just like whether or not to skydive in the first place, jump a camera, swoop, wingsuit. They all add additional risk that could result in injury and/or death.

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...stop feeding the sharks. FOOLS. Moderator, you should think to delete threads such as this until an open case is CLOSED. To all the others...STFU, both sides.



What exactly is it that you fear happening? You think lawyers are circling over this thread like vultures waiting for the off-chance that information critical to their lawsuit will get posted? lol

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You should know prior to boarding the plane whether or not this will be a cut jump run for a hop & pop. You should have made that choice on the ground. Nothing to ask in the plane. Either you jump or you don't.



What is a cut jump run? There isn't enough context in this thread, the term is not used in the SIM, a forum search doesn't reveal a good hit...

If I paid for a hop-n-pop, I would assume the hop-n-pop is the same as one of the ones I did to get my A. You're "nothing to ask in the plane" is emblematic of the problem. There's no doubt that if I delayed the load because something didn't look right, and dare I ask you a question, (a USPA instructor WHOM I SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE AS A RESOURCE) would yell at me in an irritated voice, shaking me up... >:(

And I'll say it again, these may not be the facts of the Lodi incident, but they may not be far off...

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And I'll say it again, these may not be the facts of the Lodi incident, but they may not be far off...



And yet they may be (read- 'are') far off. The FACT is- you don't know. with your newfound knowledge of lack of knowledge, stop posting like a [email protected]$$. I'm done, as I don't want to feed any further into your [email protected]$$ery.
So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

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You should know prior to boarding the plane whether or not this will be a cut jump run for a hop & pop. You should have made that choice on the ground. Nothing to ask in the plane. Either you jump or you don't.



What is a cut jump run? There isn't enough context in this thread, the term is not used in the SIM, a forum search doesn't reveal a good hit...

If I paid for a hop-n-pop, I would assume the hop-n-pop is the same as one of the ones I did to get my A. You're "nothing to ask in the plane" is emblematic of the problem. There's no doubt that if I delayed the load because something didn't look right, and dare I ask you a question, (a USPA instructor WHOM I SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE AS A RESOURCE) would yell at me in an irritated voice, shaking me up... >:(

And I'll say it again, these may not be the facts of the Lodi incident, but they may not be far off...


A cut jump run, the plane is leveled before jumpers exit as opposed to a climbing jump run (as was the case in this incident). With 50 jumps you really should know this already:S

Again I was ONLY refering to this specific scenerio that you should ALREADY know whether the jump run will be cut or not. I was not referring to anything else as you are.

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Oh yeah, and across the board, salespersons are far scummier than lawyers. Just thought I'd throw that in



Finally something we agree upon! B|

You wouldn't by chance be somehow involved in this litigation would you?

Just curious, we had posers come on here a few time before, and 'circle the carcass' looking for info and a quick buck.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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A cut jump run, the plane is leveled before jumpers exit as opposed to a climbing jump run (as was the case in this incident). With 50 jumps you really should know this already



This next part is sincere: thank you for teaching me this - this whole discussion probably hasn't swayed much opinion, but now I know more.

I just checked with two similiary situated jump buddies - none of us is familiar with this term (until now). Perhaps at your DZ (which may in fact be Lodi) this term is part of the first jump course, I dunno.

However, with regard to that question, I asked to be educated and you did so in a mocking way. As a USPA ambassador and a person who may draw her living from the sport - you would be well served by improving your attitude toward persons such as myself.

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Finally something we agree upon! B|


Awesome! :)
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You wouldn't by chance be somehow involved in this litigation would you?



Not at all, in fact, where this to happen at my home dropzone I would probably be biased in favor of the DZ. However, the vitriol spat at the jumper in the first few posts (and similar posts in the past) polarized my interest and hence my posting.

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A cut jump run, the plane is leveled before jumpers exit as opposed to a climbing jump run (as was the case in this incident). With 50 jumps you really should know this already



This next part is sincere: thank you for teaching me this - this whole discussion probably hasn't swayed much opinion, but now I know more.

I just checked with two similiary situated jump buddies - none of us is familiar with this term (until now). Perhaps at your DZ (which may in fact be Lodi) this term is part of the first jump course, I dunno.



If you have really not heard of what a cut jump run is you have ABSOLUTELY no business being involved with this discussion as this is the central issue of this incident.

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