Lodi Facing Million Dollar Lawsuit

[MartinOlsson 0]

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It's easier to criticize, hard to fix. Fact remains that across the board, products come out fairly safe and well designed, and problems are addressed quickly.

This is done by good engineers and market forces, not by lawyers. The liability system in the US is unique, most other industrialized countries have systems with less punitative slant. Yet these countries seem to be able to produce as safe, or in some cases, safer products. The legal system has very little to do with the quality of products and services.

/Martin

[diablopilot 2]

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Had I been on that plane with him, I would have been angry at him for endangering not only his life, but mine, and the rest of the folks on that plane.

And what of the pilot for putting you in danger?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tombuch 0]

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If you have really not heard of what a cut jump run is you have ABSOLUTELY no business being involved with this discussion as this is the central issue of this incident.

He has every right to be involved, and I'm glad he learned what a cut is.

Back in the day when we all made most of our jumps from a Cessna and had to climb out onto the wing strut, it was common for the pilot to maintain power until the last possible moment. The jumper leaning out the door would turn to the pilot and call "CUT" just before exit and the pilot would pull the power back so it would be easier for everybody to get out into the wind. That procedure continued through to big jump planes and held for a while. Now, many jump pilots prefer to configure the airplane on their own, including the cut (if there is one), so at many drop zones the jumpers don't even know it's happening.

Heck, back in the day many jump pilots would pull power back to idle and we would hear the stall horn blaring. Hopefully that isn't happening anymore!

One of the other things to consider about Cessna jumps is that the rate of climb diminishes at higher altitudes so the nose of the aircraft is held relatively low before jumprun, and there is little pitch change for exit. A jumper from a Cessna DZ visiting a turbine airport may not understand that a pitch change is normal and expected, or what various configuration changes might look and feel like.

A good skydiver training program will introduce students to basic aircraft operations, usually in Category "e," but some of the discussion will occur in other categories as well. Ideally aircraft operations training will be conducted by a jump pilot, but it often isn't the case. The aircraft briefing in the USPA 2008 SIM (page 69) does not discuss a cut and it is not in the glossary, so it may not be a familiar term or even a concept to many low-time jumpers. That's especially true of Cessna jumpers, and can be true of big turbine drop zones where low-time jumpers are sometimes just taught to look for the green light and go.

This is an interesting and important discussion for instructors, because we need to understand that when a student is trained we must anticipate that they will travel around, and should help them learn about the different procedures they will encounter. Likewise, when instructors brief a visiting jumper we should be aware of the kind of aircraft they have been jumping, and offer solid "differences" training. And we should be aware that a low-time jumper visiting a new DZ will often be overloaded with new experiences and may have a hard time taking it all in and adjusting. It can really be frightening for a beginner! With that in mind, lets remember that if a student failed to learn, the instructor failed to teach, and that applies to advanced briefings of experienced jumpers given by non-instructors too.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[NWFlyer 2]

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And what of the pilot for putting you in danger?

Assuming I was alive, I might feel pissed about that, too, it's a natural emotion. But (at least at Lodi) how they configure their jump run was a known quantity and I chose to get on the plane anyway. (Hypothetically, since I wasn't on *this* plane, but I have done a few jumps there, knowing that information).

But as we've addressed in this and other threads, this is an important reminder to jumpers to do their best to learn about the aircraft operations of dropzones and make their choices with full information, not just assumptions.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[wormly81 0]

Speuci,

You have decided you want to jump out of airplanes but you refuse to proactively take responsibility for your own safety. If you aren't taking responsibility for your own safety then you are also ignorant to fact that you can do something that ends up hurting others.

Nobody owes you a damn thing. Your fabricated notion that people are trying to withhold important safety information from low number jumpers is absurd. It shows that you have not connected with your instructors or the experienced jumpers at your DZ. Your propensity to shoot off your mouth when you don't even know the context of the conversation gives insight into why this may be. However you ended up being indoctrinated into skydiving without picking up on the requirement of self responsibility is beyond me.

If I were you I would be embarrassed by the things you posted in this forum. I surely hope you take some time to think about the hazards of skydiving and the responsibility that comes along with the decision to jump, not only to yourself but to the people around you.

You and the person involved in this incident appear to have a lot in common. I wish for you a more fortunate outcome.

Jeff

[tetra316 0]

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If you have really not heard of what a cut jump run is you have ABSOLUTELY no business being involved with this discussion as this is the central issue of this incident.

With that in mind, lets remember that if a student failed to learn, the instructor failed to teach, and that applies to advanced briefings of experienced jumpers given by non-instructors too.

While I do agree with your concept I don't agree with simply saying if they failed to learn, you failed to teach. You also have to take into consideration those students who are too arrogant/think they know it all types. No matter what you do you may still not be able to get the point across. I KNOW we'll all come across people like this. Perhaps we should do a better job of grounding those with this attitude until they are willing to learn/listen.

[speuci 0]

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Speuci,

You have decided you want to jump out of airplanes but you refuse to proactively take responsibility for your own safety. If you aren't taking responsibility for your own safety then you are also ignorant to fact that you can do something that ends up hurting others.

Nobody owes you a damn thing. Your fabricated notion that people are trying to withhold important safety information from low number jumpers is absurd. It shows that you have not connected with your instructors or the experienced jumpers at your DZ. Your propensity to shoot off your mouth when you don't even know the context of the conversation gives insight into why this may be. However you ended up being indoctrinated into skydiving without picking up on the requirement of self responsibility is beyond me.

If I were you I would be embarrassed by the things you posted in this forum. I surely hope you take some time to think about the hazards of skydiving and the responsibility that comes along with the decision to jump, not only to yourself but to the people around you.

You and the person involved in this incident appear to have a lot in common. I wish for you a more fortunate outcome.

Jeff

This will be my last post on this thread - Tom, thanks for the lengthy reply, very informative - I greatly appreciate that you took the time to type it.

Jeff - I was going to respond point-counter-point with you but i've decided not too. I'm not the least embarassed by the things I posted, most of what i've pointed out is my modest experiences at 5 dropzones over 2.5 years in the sport, and differing attitutes toward newbies that may or may not impact safety.

Perhaps you already know everything, but I know that I certainly don't. IMO, experience is what is truly valuable here, and let's face it, neither you nor I have it. Since it seems likely that you and I will be on the same load in the not too distant future... I'll leave it with a "Blue skies"

[wormly81 0]

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Jeff - I was going to respond point-counter-point with you but i've decided not too. I'm not the least embarassed by the things I posted, most of what i've pointed out is my modest experiences at 5 dropzones over 2.5 years in the sport, and differing attitutes toward newbies that may or may not impact safety.

Perhaps you already know everything, but I know that I certainly don't. IMO, experience is what is truly valuable here, and let's face it, neither you nor I have it. Since it seems likely that you and I will be on the same load in the not too distant future... I'll leave it with a "Blue skies"

Please accept my apology for being blunt. My own personal experiences coming from a climbing background, where the community has suffered at length from legal issues brought about by the absence of personal responsibility, makes me especially vitriolic in these types of discussions. Hope to share a load and learn something with you someday. Maybe I can show I'm not just some asshole with an opinion on the internet.

Blue skies.

[mrbiceps 0]

Being a new jumper i have only jumper at 3 dzs in australia and all loads i have been on the pilot cuts on jump run. How common is this done around the world? Sounds like madness to me to do jump run on full power. How hard is it to cut the power a bit and get the tail up a bit higher for the jumpers? In my view it was absolutely inevitable that one day someone was going to make a mistake and hit the tail, therefore endangering themselves AS WELL as the pilot. Lets face it people everyone in life makes mistakes. Im not saying that the jumper is not partly to blame as he was told but the tail should have never been that low in the first place.
What about the 20 jumper doing his first solo after AFF. He has all this stuff going through his mind. He is still scared, his heart is pumping like mad, he is thinking about the jump, about his EPs if something goes wrong, Dont forget buddy dont jump up....
The whole incident should have never happened if the pilot gave a dam about the safety of the jumpers on his plane.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Does a nose high, full power, flapless exit make it more hazardous for the jumper? Yes.

Then why are they doing it that way? Isn't jumping hazardous enough without taking unnecessary risk to save a buck or two?

With a proper special exit, you can jump with the plane going fast and not get hurt. Not everyone makes proper special exits. This is not a new problem. People have been killed by this before. Is it worth it to let the pilot not have to slow down a little? I don't think so.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Then why are they doing it that way? Isn't jumping hazardous enough without taking unnecessary risk to save a buck or two?

It's a $5 HnP. If it's literally going to cost a buck or two, yeah, it matters.

[Orange1 0]

To abstract the posts so far, do i get the basics right here:
- it is more dangerous to do a full speed jump run
- this was not the litigant's first H&P on such a jump run
- he had had a close call and been warned how to exit previously

In other words, the practise was not the safest possible but the litigant had already jumped that way and been cautioned about where he was going wrong. He made the decision to do another jump in those circumstances. In my simplistic view of this, coming from a non-litigous nation, in this instance i would say it is the jumper's responsibility. (I might not feel the same for a student who had never had a jump run like that and where it wasn't explained to him beforehand.)

Analogy? Newly licensed driver. He is used to braking a certain way when he sees a red light. One day it is wet when he is driving, he doesn't start braking in time, then slams the brakes and skids. All is OK though and passenger (let's say for argument sake he happens to be a driving instructor) says " start braking sooner next time in the wet". Next time in the wet he does the same thing he did the first time and causes an accident. Is the instructor at fault?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Then why are they doing it that way? Isn't jumping hazardous enough without taking unnecessary risk to save a buck or two?

It's a $5 HnP. If it's literally going to cost a buck or two, yeah, it matters.

But it shouldn't matter, in practice. It's a loss-leader. Retail establishments, which most DZs are, use loss-leaders all the time to generate customer traffic. The hoped-for result is that the increase in customer traffic, and resulting sales, generated by the loss-leader, will out-strip the loss generated by it, making it an overall net gain. It's not unreasonable to conclude that that's why Lodi does that, too. If the only way Lodi can generate its intended net gain from this particular loss-leader is to configure tail-low on jump runs, then it's not unreasonable for us, the target consumers, to discuss the ethics of that business practice.

Using a loss-leader is a business practice that comes with a certain calculated risk to the business: the risk of a net loss. If a business doesn't want to accept that risk, then it shouldn't use the practice.

[wmw999 2,120]

Thanks for that post. It's perfect.

Everyone forgets stuff sometimes, and the most dangerous knowledge is that which you don't know you don't have.

I was at one time a rigger/packer at a DZ that didn't teach cutaways (back in conventional gear days). Staff jumps before 8:00AM were free, so there I was, haulin' ass to make the load, and I just put on some student gear -- mine was unpacked from the night before.

I'd been packing this gear, and was intimately familiar with it. But one of the other folks on the load looked at me, and remembered that I hadn't trained at that DZ. He asked me: Ever jumped a rig with a throw-out reserve?

Nope, I didn't have a malfunction. But I sure hadn't thought about it, either. We owe it to ourselves to learn, and we owe it to our skydiving family to help, and to consider that we're all human.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[davelepka 4]

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the litigant had already jumped that way and been cautioned about where he was going wrong. He made the decision to do another jump in those circumstances.

To me, this is the key to who is at fault in this circumstance.

In the grand scheme of skydiving, this jumper did not have alot of experience, the reports are from 80 to 100 jumps. But in terms of being able to understand the concept of a no-cut jumprun, and the need for a specific type of exit, I would say that he had more than enough expereince.

Let's keep in mind that the required action to exit safely is actually a lack of action. You need to NOT do a poised, jumping exit. You simply need to roll or dive out of the door.

I could understand if, say, you need to do a poised jumping exit in order to go over the tail, in that instance additional performance from the jumper is required, and mayeb 100 jumps isn't enough to ensure that one make it up and over the tail, but that's celarly not the case.

All the jumper had to do was put LESS effort into his exit, and he clearly failed to do so.

I've got about 1000 jumps out of a Twin Bonanza, and there are a few ways to ding the tail and the wing flap on that plane. Jumpers told about what you could, and could not do, and expected to follow those rules. You can't expect every exit from every plane to just be open to whatever the jumper feels like doing. There will be times where the situation dictates certain action or inaction, and you as a jumper are expected to follow suit.

[danornan 64]

I have not read this entire thread, but I feel that it is still the RESPONSIBILITY of the person jumping out of the airplane to know what is necessary to do it safely. YOU made the decision to do what is not normal ( it is not normal to jump out of an airplane!) and therefore took that upon yourself. If we would stop blaming others for our own actions and consequences, life on this planet would be be far easier and cheaper.

Dano

[JohnMitchell 14]

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It's a $5 HnP. If it's literally going to cost a buck or two, yeah, it matters.

I like cheap jumps as much as the next guy, but if a normal (poised) exit is likely to get you injured, and there's a piloting technique to dramatically reduce that risk, I think it's worth a buck or two.

My risk vs. cost matrix may be different from yours.

[airtwardo 6]

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My risk vs. cost matrix may be different from yours.

Yeah....you OLD GUYS take longer to heal!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Krip 2]

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My risk vs. cost matrix may be different from yours.

Yeah....you OLD GUYS take longer to heal!

Hi T

Yep John is getting OLDER/wiser.

He's also probably very close to Retirement
Plus he's got a very nice wife and great kids that have started to leave the nest.

So yes johns risk/reward/wisdom matrix may be different than others

One Jump Wonder

[crustySCSA69 0]

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Being a new jumper i have only jumper at 3 dzs in australia and all loads i have been on the pilot cuts on jump run. How common is this done around the world? Sounds like madness to me to do jump run on full power.........

In the good old days ... unless you were a student (at least 30 sec delays unsupervised... and with 80 jumps today you are not a student) ... any 'climbing pass' was a no-cut, no level affair, if your going to 12.5 and someone's getting out at 9, they were getting out no cut ... I don't think I ever noticed a single one NOT be told to avoid jumping 'UP' and actually encouraged to dive to the lower left of the door opening ...

People have hit the tails of DC-3's for christ sake ... this has been known forever.. my first glance out the back on climb convinced me jumping UP was not a good idea and that was at 35 jumps on my second ride on a DC-3 ... it's common sense....

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.......
Lets face it people everyone in life makes mistakes.

with that attitude, you are a bounce waiting to happen... maybe you will make a mistake, but in this sport, your attitude has to be I WILL NOT MAKE A MISTAKE and do everything in your power to make that so.......

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Im not saying that the jumper is not partly to blame as he was told .........

he was TOLD .... he's completely to blame ....

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.....
What about the 20 jumper doing his first solo after AFF. He has all this stuff going through his mind. He is still scared, his heart is pumping like mad, he is thinking about the jump, about his EPs if something goes wrong, Dont forget buddy dont jump up....

wouldn't the first solo be at the altitude he does AFF from ??? why would he be doing a Climbing pass here... as opposed to part of the normal, at altitude jump run where he is getting a normal cut and trim position ???

and even if he is getting out on a climbing pass at 20 jumps, after all that training, he should be able to add into his repertoire the simple suggestion DO NOT JUMP up ....

what the hell is he doing poised for anyway ??? in the old days your second 30 second delay was a REQUIRED diving exit (where I came from) and once you did one of those, no matter how spectacularly unstable, you never wanted to go poised again,

and a proper poised exit should be a simple pivot thru the door , not some athletic leap (which even on a DC-3 is dangerous ... let alone anything else)

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....
The whole incident should have never happened if the pilot gave a dam about the safety of the jumpers on his plane.

The whole thing would never have happened if the jumper in question had half of a brain......

I think part of the problem today is everybody stressing the 'Safety' of this sport ...
it's dangerous, you can die, ESPECIALLY if you don't pay attention.... this guy learned that and should stay on the ground....he obviously doesn't belong in the air ...

[chrismgtis 0]

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Back in the day when we all made most of our jumps from a Cessna and had to climb out onto the wing strut, it was common for the pilot to maintain power until the last possible moment. The jumper leaning out the door would turn to the pilot and call "CUT" just before exit and the pilot would pull the power back so it would be easier for everybody to get out into the wind.

I know what you mean by the cut because:

A. I was taught to signal the pilot to cut the power when doing H&Ps from a Cessna (during my A license H&Ps)
B. It's always been noticeable to me even in the Otter which is what I jump from 95% of the time. I've come to expect the pilot to level out and cut the power and hit the green light.

I didn't know it was called a "cut", but I associate it with cutting the power.

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I have not read this entire thread, but I feel that it is still the RESPONSIBILITY of the person jumping out of the airplane to know what is necessary to do it safely. YOU made the decision to do what is not normal ( it is not normal to jump out of an airplane!) and therefore took that upon yourself. If we would stop blaming others for our own actions and consequences, life on this planet would be be far easier and cheaper.

True. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure everything is as it should be before you put on your gear, step on the aircraft and exit the aircraft.

I've only been doing this for about 3+ years and I was pointing out long ago that I noticed that people don't care about anything but jumping and getting in their sit fly jump at jump 75.

It's disturbing to me personally. There isn't much I can do about it though. I've looked at some people and said "You're doing that with 60 jumps?". They just smile and move on.

Anytime I jump out of the airplane not knowing every single detail is perfect, I'm scared shitless.

Everyone does need to realize thought that, first off people do make mistakes and will eventually make a mistake again and again in their lives in everything they do. In this sport, it's possible that one mistake may get someone killed or severely injured. It's going to happen eventually. No one is perfect and can prevent making that occasional mistake now and then. We're human. Everyone has to look out for themselves and try to look out for others too.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[diablopilot 2]

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Then why are they doing it that way? Isn't jumping hazardous enough without taking unnecessary risk to save a buck or two?

It's a $5 HnP. If it's literally going to cost a buck or two, yeah, it matters.

Once again, is safety worth a "buck or two"?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BDashe 0]

Don't worry everyone! I'm making an instructional video on how to successfuly exit an aircraft safely... I'll give you some hot inside info- it involves an open door, altitude, and falling. Do NOT expect to see any form of leaping, hopping, jumping, lunging, hurdling, springing, or vaulting. It'll be posted in a couple weeks.

WARNING- YOU WILL WATCH THE VIDEO-TO-BE AT YOUR OWN RISK. THE INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEO IS NOT TO BE USED AS AN INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEO. THE STARS OF THE VIDEO, ITS CREATOR, AND ALL PARTIES INVOLVED ARE RELEASED FROM ALL LIABILITY, ESPECIALLY FROM YOU'RE INEVITABLE FUCK UPS. SO DON'T FUCKING SUE ME IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR... OR IF YOU BREAK YOURSELF DOING ANYTHING EVER.

Seacrest out.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[fasted3 0]

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

Made me think of this one:

If at first you don't succeed...

Skydiving is not for you.

But what do I know?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Then why are they doing it that way? Isn't jumping hazardous enough without taking unnecessary risk to save a buck or two?

It's a $5 HnP. If it's literally going to cost a buck or two, yeah, it matters.

Once again, is safety worth a "buck or two"?

Why not just dive out, as instructed? Everyone wins. It's also better training in case you ever have to do it in an emergency.