Exit Order

[mnskydiver688 0]

I assume the direction of jump run relative to the uppers would dictate when CReW exits. Crosswind jump run I guess either or would be fine, but straight upwind jump run I would think CRew would exit last or right before wingsuits. As far as wingsuits are concerned I always get out last. By the time I get out I can already see some canopies and by 9-8k I can see the entire jump run of canopies so I can adjust where I want to open depending upon that.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[ltdiver 3]

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I assume the direction of jump run relative to the uppers would dictate when CReW exits.

I'm not a CReW dog but if we do a 180 for the RW jumpers to get them a headwind for their jump run, then the CReW guys have a downwind exit.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[pirana 0]

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Just like the tandem vidiots who just cannot for the life of themselves sit with their tandems.
Freakin' bozos.

Tell me more about that. They always sit at the rear (by the door) at STC. I assumed that was standard practice, but wasn't sure why. Guessing it allows then to deal with their camera gear easier, and get good pre-jump shots. I do like that I get to see a lot of our exits on video.

Why is it bad for them to sit there?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rehmwa 2]

I'm ok with it when it's 1 or 2 camermen. But once it starts getting over 3 cameras in the back (that are actually getting out with the tandems anyway, so last), then it's a pain in the ass.


other - I don't understand the "biggest to smallest" thing either. WITHIN a fall rate group, I prefer to exit based on canopy descent rate if possible to avoid traffic. I could care less if the 10way belly goes before the 4 way belly. In fact, I'd rather send out a 2way or a solo on the green because we get back the climb out time to exit SOMEBODY on green that we'd lose with a big way.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mark 102]

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In fact, I'd rather send out a 2way or a solo on the green because we get back the climb out time to exit SOMEBODY on green that we'd lose with a big way.

Except that the exceptional pilot who knows there's a 10-way out first will turn on the light earlier so there's less wasted separation later.

Mark

[CMiller 1]

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But an experienced group of 4-way belly flyers vs an equally experienced group of sit flyers isn't likely to drift a lot more or a lot less.

How can that be true? Freeflyers are in freefall for less time, are exposed to the wind for less time, and so drift less. An RW jumper being blown for 60 seconds will most definitely drift farther than a freeflyer blown for 45.

[pilotdave 0]

He was referring to drifting in relation to the airmass, not drifting with the wind. Like backsliding, for example. He was responding to the comment that freeflyers are more likely to drift.

Dave

[billvon 2,396]

>I don't understand the "biggest to smallest" thing either.

A few reasons I can see for that:

1) Easier for the pilot to figure out where to put the spot. If the first group out is always the largest he can give the green earlier to allow more time for the later jumpers. (He can just adjust constantly based on group size, of course, but giving a consistent earlier green can be easier.)

2) Very small groups (solos, 2-ways) often are pulling higher, which means they can still get back when the spot gets long (which happens when you get out last.(

3) Very large groups often get their own pass. At Perris it is common to put out a 30 way formation load then have the second plane loop back to do a second pass with the remaining 14 people in the lead plane.

4) Since larger groups require more time between groups, putting them out first allows later groups to see how big the group is. (You can always ask, of course, but actually seeing them exit is an excellent backup to that.)

[rehmwa 2]

Nuts

1 - I've never seen a pilot that makes a regular effort to ask how big the first out group is. Send out the solo on the green, followed by the 10 way, and it's a moot point - the climbout of the 10 way gives good separation

2 - on a less windy day, it might be smarter to let the high pullers (2ways etc) out first so they have a better chance of getting back from a short spot. I'd rather the hot canopy group be out like 3rd so they open directly over the DZ - they get down and out of the way even before the first two groups with the slower canopies.

3 - If a large group gets their own pass, that is moot to this discussion

4 - Sure, I'd like to see the next group take note of the big group in front of them and delay appropriately. But does it really happen? Wouldn't it be obviously safer for those 4 belly groups (or 4 FF groups) to go 2way - 10way - solo - 8way, instead of 10way - 8way - 2way - solo?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[faulknerwn 36]

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1 - I've never seen a pilot that makes a regular effort to ask how big the first out group is. Send out the solo on the green, followed by the 10 way, and it's a moot point - the climbout of the 10 way gives good separation

I've seen that at lots of drop zones. You may not even know they're doing that - they may just look at a manifest sheet or talk to manifest on the radio.

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2 - on a less windy day, it might be smarter to let the high pullers (2ways etc) out first so they have a better chance of getting back from a short spot.

But then the people from the 10-way will be tracking on top of other canopies. That could be extremely dangerous - a freefall/canopy collision is very often not survivable.

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4 - Sure, I'd like to see the next group take note of the big group in front of them and delay appropriately. But does it really happen?

That was always part of student training where I have jumped. I know that when discussing exit separation as part of the A license test for my students I always talk about that. (And I'm at a Cessna dz but I know my students will travel.)

[billvon 2,396]

>Sure, I'd like to see the next group take note of the big group in front
> of them and delay appropriately. But does it really happen?

It definitely does around here. The standard Mark-and-Darryld zoo loads (generally getting out first) get extra time.

[rehmwa 2]

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But then the people from the 10-way will be tracking on top of other canopies......... That was always part of student training where I have jumped. I know that when discussing exit separation as part of the A license test for my students I always talk about that.

these two seem contradictory - which is it? do they track over each other or do they take enough separation?

Feel free to contrive arguments to contradict my comments, but at least take the ones that contradict each other and put them non-consecutively



anyway - the 10 way tracking on top of the first outs? that's a horizontal separation issue, never count on vertical separation, use horizontal

pilot checking the manifest - I've never seen a manifest that lists the size of the groups, only the total number of jumpers, and the total weight. If a good pilot finds out the size of the first group and shortens the spot a tenth or two for a big climbout - good for him. I doubt it's a regular thing to count on when figuring exit order.

Figuring additional delay for bigger groups - I've seen it 'trained' also, but in the end, your jumpers are sitting in the plane and asking "how long between groups" of the experienced jumpers. And then they count fast, or too slow, or whatever, but rarely also look out of the plane and gauge ground speed or anything pertinent to separation.

before you gig on the "ground speed" comment (But BILL, you can't gage separation looking at the ground, that's like the 45 degree rule......) here's an example - you're on the ground and the wind are mild out of the west - a few minutes later, you're on jump run - flying west into the uppers - and the plane is absolutely CRAWLING slow relative to the ground - do you take a long or short delay between groups?


Edit: BTW, these are always great discussions in the General or Safety forums, thanks for commenting and trading thoughts to those that participate, this stuff can't be shared enough IMO

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pilotdave 0]

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If a good pilot finds out the size of the first group and shortens the spot a tenth or two for a big climbout - good for him. I doubt it's a regular thing to count on when figuring exit order.

You can just ask the pilot for the light a little early because you're going to have a long climbout. Of course I wouldn't expect the pilot to compensate for a long climbout on his own, but communication and spotting by jumpers are still allowed.
Dave

[rehmwa 2]

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>Sure, I'd like to see the next group take note of the big group in front
> of them and delay appropriately. But does it really happen?

It definitely does around here. The standard Mark-and-Darryld zoo loads (generally getting out first) get extra time.

And I bet it does every load you get on (sample size of N= a whole lot) because you know better. Does every single newbie know what Bill VonNovak knows when BVN isn't on that load?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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If a good pilot finds out the size of the first group and shortens the spot a tenth or two for a big climbout - good for him. I doubt it's a regular thing to count on when figuring exit order.

You can just ask the pilot for the light a little early because you're going to have a long climbout. Of course I wouldn't expect the pilot to compensate for a long climbout on his own, but communication and spotting by jumpers are still allowed.
Dave

absolutely my point, but it doesn't invalidate other exit order scenarios - and not all pilots (or DZOs) are friendly to messing with their spots........ (though the DZOs are always happy with a shorter green light when they are doing tandems all day)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyblu3 0]

I have seen it all from tandems and AFF's out first or FS jumpes first followed by FF's or vice versa. I guess it all depends on the dropzone. I have jumped at numerous dz's worldwide and have seen all the variations.

Take Empuriabrava for example. Small landing area lots of strange winds. Exit order changes invariaby there, sometimes numerous times in the same day. Depends what the uppers are doing.

I think the most popular exit order that most people seem to be comfortable with FS groups first, freefly goups. Followed by solo jumpers, AFF's and tandems last.

Basically, be aware. Know jumprun direction, track away from the line of flight and don't fly up the jumprun after deployment. The argument about putting high pullers out last is fine in theory but in reality you are still going to have high pullers exiting first. If large FS groups are leaving first, their camera flyer is going to be opening in place at 5000ft when the formation breaks off.

Food for thought!!

[rehmwa 2]

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track away from the line of flight

that's fine for a solo or 2-way if they can even recognize LOF at break off time, absolutely a bad idea for anything bigger - I don't give that one any more credence that someone promising to open high or low, or the 45 degree rule (I don't trust it).

I don't think anyone should count on someone else doing it, ever. exit separation should be the way to separate between groups. WIthin groups? get away from the people in your group and don't worry about LOF.


other than that, those are good considerations

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RMK 3]

Regarding FS & FF, this is a norm at most DZs, but FS and FF order should be reversed if the jump run is downwind (such as at DZs that are near water and always have to have the same jump run). The slower the fall rate, the more time the wind speed has to affect you.

A solo FS is at 120mph, whereas a bigger way may be 105ish. A solo FF going head down will easily fall through the vertical level of a larger FS group in front of him, so what is most important is whether that group is getting closer or farther from you on the jump run due to wind.

It’s damn annoying, if you end up having to spend your FF jump watching the FS group in front of you gradually getting closer to you both vertically and horizontally, just due to jump politics in regards of who is on the lift. At many drops zones, this has or is now changing and FS is the new bastard child with jump order at the preference of the FF jumpers. However, the deciding factor should always be the WIND, not who’s on the load.

For no wind days, I don’t see any argument as to why FF should not go before FS. A sit flyer could fall on the head of a flat flyer, but not the other way around.

To conclude my ranting, I’ve got a virtual “Bitch Slap” for people still using the outdated term “relative work”. OK, you’ve jumped since the 70s we get it. What other fun event is described as work?

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[rehmwa 2]

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FS and FF order should be reversed if the jump run is downwind rules change for cross wind, and when uppers and lowers are in different directions, etc etc

A solo FS is at 120mph, whereas a bigger way may be 105ish.

However, the deciding factor should always be the WINDS, not who’s on the load.

Damn - someone that gets it. Thanks

And the first "drift based" answer that makes real sense to why FS exit order can be largest to smallest.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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For no wind days, I don’t see any argument as to why FF should not go before FS. A sit flyer could fall on the head of a flat flyer, but not the other way around.

Because the freeflyer can be expected to 'throw' further than the belly flyers.

[tetra316 0]

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track away from the line of flight

that's fine for a solo or 2-way if they can even recognize LOF at break off time, absolutely a bad idea for anything bigger - I don't give that one any more credence that someone promising to open high or low, or the 45 degree rule (I don't trust it).

I don't think anyone should count on someone else doing it, ever. exit separation should be the way to separate between groups. WIthin groups? get away from the people in your group and don't worry about LOF.


other than that, those are good considerations

So you are saying it's okay to track up or down the line of flight if there are people out before and after you...? Or you just don't trust it to create the separation for opening..?

[billvon 2,396]

> Does every single newbie know what Bill VonNovak knows when BVN isn't on that load?

Nope. But since we have a standard (largest group first) we post the winds (30kts out of the north, 10-12 seconds between groups) and because Darryld and Mark are pretty good at identifying and talking to risky newer jumpers (mainly out of a sense of self preservation) it's not much of an issue.

[billvon 2,396]

>So you are saying it's okay to track up or down the line of flight if there are people
>out before and after you...?

The biggest collision risk are the other people in your group. So the priority on a 3 or 4 way has to be to get clear of the center, and that is most easily accomplished by having everyone track from the center. Avoiding the next group comes in a very distant second.

If you are really so close to the next group that there is a collision risk, then the right answer is to increase time between exits. Do not sacrifice separation within your group to get more separation between exits.

[tetra316 0]

I know what you are saying, just that so many instructors/people ingrain in students and upjumpers that you are NEVER to track up or down the line of flight. It made me do a double take to read that.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I know what you are saying, just that so many instructors/people ingrain in students and upjumpers that you are NEVER to track up or down the line of flight. It made me do a double take to read that.

Usually the instructors are teaching that to student/novices who are going to spend 30 or more seconds tracking. I think you are right that that kind of wisdom gets mis-transferred to all tracking, including the 5-7 second variety that follows group freefall jumps.