Following the Pattern?

[HoldtheIce 0]

Here’s a mistake I’ll not repeat again…. I was on a load with other students last Sunday. I was the last out because I was jumping at a higher altitude. Being the last to land, I was watching the other two students fly the landing pattern. The approach they used was the default to the west landing. As I got down to about 1 K and setting up for my landing pattern, I noticed the wind flag was indicating intermittent wind coming from the east.

Now there were three issues that I needed to consider here. The rule at my DZ is the first jumper down sets the pattern. Second thing, at our pre-jump meeting, we were told to fly the default (to the west) landing pattern. And third, the spotter on the ground didn’t call me on the radio and tell me to deviate from my landing pattern.

I flew my “down wind” leg to the east, base to the north and final to the west. This pattern put a 5+ mph wind at my back. I came in fast and landed hard. I tried a PFL but I was moving so fast I landed on my butt. My instructor walked over to me while I was stowing my lines, I pointed at the wind flag and said WTF? He said the wind was intermittent out of the east and I caught a gust.

Lesson learned? Should I start making better decisions while under my chute and not relying so much on the spotter with the radio? Even thought I was instructed to fly a west final, should I have changed my pattern and landed into the wind?

Cause they know, and so do I, The high road is hard to find
A detour to your new life, Tell all of your friends goodbye

[Morne 0]

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Here’s a mistake I’ll not repeat again…. I was on a load with other students last Sunday. I was the last out because I was jumping at a higher altitude. Being the last to land, I was watching the other two students fly the landing pattern. The approach they used was the default to the west landing. As I got down to about 1 K and setting up for my landing pattern, I noticed the wind flag was indicating intermittent wind coming from the east.

Now there were three issues that I needed to consider here. The rule at my DZ is the first jumper down sets the pattern. Second thing, at our pre-jump meeting, we were told to fly the default (to the west) landing pattern. And third, the spotter on the ground didn’t call me on the radio and tell me to deviate from my landing pattern.

I flew my “down wind” leg to the east, base to the north and final to the west. This pattern put a 5+ mph wind at my back. I came in fast and landed hard. I tried a PFL but I was moving so fast I landed on my butt. My instructor walked over to me while I was stowing my lines, I pointed at the wind flag and said WTF? He said the wind was intermittent out of the east and I caught a gust.

Lesson learned? Should I start making better decisions while under my chute and not relying so much on the spotter with the radio? Even thought I was instructed to fly a west final, should I have changed my pattern and landed into the wind?

What if the first guy to land is an idiot? Choose your own direction of landing into the wind.
You need to make the decision.

[virgin-burner 1]

you should do what the rule is; first man down..

do anything else, and you wont jump much after that at my dz..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[HoldtheIce 0]

The first man down was a new student who was jumping a static line. He was flying the pattern the spotter on the radio was telling him too.

Cause they know, and so do I, The high road is hard to find
A detour to your new life, Tell all of your friends goodbye

[Thanatos340 1]

Following the first man down and landing a down winder is a Hell of a lot better option than going against the established pattern and Potentially killing you and another jumper.

What ever the established pattern is.. Follow it. Chasing the wind sock can get people killed.

Canopy Collisions (Often caused by people not following the Pattern) have killed a lot of really good skydivers in the past few years.

If first man down is the rule, FOLLOW IT!!

[DSE 3]

An exception to FMD:
if the DZ is divided into a high performance area and the FMD is landing in the HP area, then they may be intentionally landing downwind.
In that case, FMD doesn't apply; FMD in the "regular" landing area determines direction.
Two canopies flying towards each other at landing can be very scary.

[danielcroft 2]

Ahh, the joys of FMD/FPD.

Get used to landing in less than ideal conditions, you won't get to choose the landing direction for a long time, especially with FMD/FPD. Not to mention that landing downwind is a skill that you should have anyway.

You did the right thing, even if you didn't like it.

[davelepka 4]

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Lesson learned? Should I start making better decisions while under my chute and not relying so much on the spotter with the radio? Even thought I was instructed to fly a west final, should I have changed my pattern and landed into the wind?

If you make a plan with other jumpers on the load, you have an obligation to stick to that plan. You, as well as the others, are all counting on each other to perform as agreed, and deviating from this is inviting an incident.

If you don't like the plan before boarding the aircraft, speak up. If you don't think the jumper who will probably land first is qualified to pick the direction of landing, speak up. If you don't think the contingency plan for changing wind direction is adequate, speak up.

If you choose not speak up, you are responsible to uphold your end of the agreement, and follow the plan.

One thing you can do is work with a canopy control coach, and learn about landing downwind and crosswind. These skills are key to being preparred for landing off the DZ, and in this case if you had been trained to land downwind, this would have been a non-issue. This training should include the theory of landing in different directions, and under controlled conditions (favorable weather, and no other canopies in the air) actual practice of cross and downwind landings.

It was mentioned upthread to just 'make your own decisions', and this is the worst advice of all. If everyone followed this adivce, people would be landing in all different directions on every load. You are sharing the sky with other canopy pilots, and in order to avoid problems, everyone needs to follow the same rules.

[fasted3 0]

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I tried a PFL but I was moving so fast I landed on my butt.

Try and get your feet under you for your PLF. Landing on your butt can hurt. I've done some horrendus landings with a good PLF, and walked away. Sometimes you just have to land downwind.

But what do I know?

[kmills0705 0]

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Here’s a mistake I’ll not repeat again…. I was on a load with other students last Sunday. I was the last out because I was jumping at a higher altitude. Being the last to land, I was watching the other two students fly the landing pattern. The approach they used was the default to the west landing. As I got down to about 1 K and setting up for my landing pattern, I noticed the wind flag was indicating intermittent wind coming from the east.

Now there were three issues that I needed to consider here. The rule at my DZ is the first jumper down sets the pattern. Second thing, at our pre-jump meeting, we were told to fly the default (to the west) landing pattern. And third, the spotter on the ground didn’t call me on the radio and tell me to deviate from my landing pattern.

I flew my “down wind” leg to the east, base to the north and final to the west. This pattern put a 5+ mph wind at my back. I came in fast and landed hard. I tried a PFL but I was moving so fast I landed on my butt. My instructor walked over to me while I was stowing my lines, I pointed at the wind flag and said WTF? He said the wind was intermittent out of the east and I caught a gust.

Lesson learned? Should I start making better decisions while under my chute and not relying so much on the spotter with the radio? Even thought I was instructed to fly a west final, should I have changed my pattern and landed into the wind?

My guess is your landing "seemed" faster and harder because you were focused on the wind sock. A 5 mph wind is a slight breeze in some areas of the country. And under a large docile student canopy should not have made much difference if you landed down wind.

Take the advice of those with a lot of experience. Land in your predetermined pattern. Any deviation of this will open yourself up to canopy collisions...

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

[HoldtheIce 0]

GREAT advice all ! Thanks for the quick feedback.

I see now that following FMD rules really makes sense. I'll talk to my instructor about downwind landings. Yes, I was paying too much attention to the wind flag and not my PLF.

Cause they know, and so do I, The high road is hard to find
A detour to your new life, Tell all of your friends goodbye

[danielcroft 2]

Not to be too picky but following the agreed landing rule/direction is what's important, not FMD/FPD. When you eventually travel to another DZ, they may well have different rules, make sure you're aware of whatever rule is in affect and follow that.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Lesson learned? Should I start making better decisions while under my chute and not relying so much on the spotter with the radio? Even thought I was instructed to fly a west final, should I have changed my pattern and landed into the wind?

You should learn to flare all the way and be able to handle down-wind landings.

It's better to get dusty from a down-wind landing you can't handle than to collide with some one attempting to land in the agreed direction. Where that's not possible (you got back from a long spot with too little altitude to turn around) you need to land out so you don't pose a danger to yourself and others.

[DocPop 1]

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My guess is your landing "seemed" faster and harder because you were focused on the wind sock. A 5 mph wind is a slight breeze in some areas of the country. And under a large docile student canopy should not have made much difference if you landed down wind.

The difference in ground speed between a upwind and downwind landing in a 5mph wind is 10mph regardless of canopy, assuming the same approach (eg full flight, straight in) for both.

E.g.

Canopy with 25 mph airspeed

Upwind ground speed = 20 mph
Downwind ground speed = 30mph

Canopy with 45 mph airspeed

Upwind ground speed = 40 mph
Downwind ground speed = 50mph

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[pchapman 261]

Much does depend on what exactly the rules and customs are at your DZ, as they vary by location.

One hopes that there is some area where you could land into the wind if a serious mistake is made with the FMD. I wouldn't want to see student forced to land downwind with a 10-15 mph tailwind when they've had no chance to learn to deal with tailwinds through gradual practice.

It's all right to say "at that DZ you need to learn to land downwind", but what if it happens before you've had the chance to learn?

Heck, landing a big canopy downwind can sometimes be worse than landing a small canopy downwind, because with the small one, one may have a much longer flare window to get sliding on the grass.

So it would be really good if there's a far corner of the field where you could go and stay out of the pattern, and land upwind if needed.

I just don't like how some say "You must follow FMD!!" and then offer no way to learn how to downwind land safely.

[danielcroft 2]

Back to the same problems with FMD/FPD. What if the first person makes a bad choice? What if the person in the middle of the load changes the pattern? Why did they change it? Which direction should you land?

IMO FMD/FPD asks way too much of jumpers least equipped to deal with that decision. You can't plan your pattern because you don't know what direction you'll be landing. You can't actually set up until you've seen which direction someone else is landing. You're dependent on not only the FPD making the right choice but also every other jumper on the load in front of you. You need to spend a bunch of energy watching the FPD when you should have more (not all) of your attention on the people around you.

I know I don't have a lot of experience with FMD/FPD but I can say that I've never received a satisfying (to me) solution to these issues from proponents of FMD/FPD.

[billvon 2,394]

>What if the first person makes a bad choice?

Then everyone lands downwind, and the first person gets a lecture/grounding.

>What if the person in the middle of the load changes the pattern?

Then they get grounded so they don't do it again. In small landing areas, generally that means the landing area is now closed and everyone has to land in the "outs" (taller grass, dirt etc)

>IMO FMD/FPD asks way too much of jumpers least equipped to deal
>with that decision.

?? FPD requires that the first person down make that decision. They are generally the people pulling the lowest with the highest wingloadings; typically these are not the newer jumpers. The newer jumpers are still at 3000 feet as that first guy is landing, so he hasn't even started a pattern yet.

For jumpers who cannot deal with joining a pattern, there's always the student circle.

>You're dependent on not only the FPD making the right choice but also
>every other jumper on the load in front of you.

That's true of every landing pattern there is.

The point here is not that FPD is ideal; it's not. It's just a reasonable solution to a problem with no perfect solutions.

Pre-declared landing pattern? Works great until the wind shifts 180 and starts blowing at 20kts. That never happens at your DZ? Great, then that might work for you.

Follow the tetrahedron? Works great until the winds shift 90 degrees under canopy. That never happens at your DZ? Great, then that might work for you.

Arrow someone puts out? Can also work great as long as you have an infallible guy setting it up. I've never met such a guy - but if your DZ has one, great.

In places that do see wind shifts, all of the above have pretty serious problems, and FPD is often a better choice.

[emmiwy 0]

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Here’s a mistake I’ll not repeat again…. I was on a load with other students last Sunday. I was the last out because I was jumping at a higher altitude. Being the last to land, I was watching the other two students fly the landing pattern. The approach they used was the default to the west landing. As I got down to about 1 K and setting up for my landing pattern, I noticed the wind flag was indicating intermittent wind coming from the east.

I think an important thing I took from your post is, as a student also, is to always keep note of altitude, even under canopy. This is important to set up your landing pattern, and to be more careful to watch other fliers below you.

I did the same actually last Friday on one of my solo jumps; I didn't exit last, but everyone else had pretty much landed before me [I take my time under canopy]. When I got to around 1500' or so I noticed one last jumper landing not the usual right-hand pattern into the high performance area. She actually didn't follow a real 'L' or 'U' shaped predictable pattern that I learned, but landed immediately from the final approach leg. It didn't immediately register what she was doing right away, as I was trying to control my own canopy.

So I landed against the pattern, because I had never done a left hand pattern up until that point. And as the only/last one to land in our DZ's designated student area, further out, I felt I was not in threat of colliding with other fliers.

But my lesson is learned--follow the first man down. :)

[chuckakers 370]

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And third, the spotter on the ground didn’t call me on the radio and tell me to deviate from my landing pattern.

Why are you on a radio at 20 jumps?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[HoldtheIce 0]

Radio at 20....To tell you the truth, I don't know. IMO I'm not learning anything if the spotter on the ground is telling me how to fly my pattern. I asked my instructor about that last weekend, he said when the spotter "feels" I don't need his help anymore. One of my best landings is when my radio somehow got turned off. Another time the shotter on the ground fucked me up because he thought I was going away from him, when in reality I was going a towards him. He told me to turn backwords. I did, lost a bunch of altitude and landed short. I asked him about it later and he said, he thought I was going in the other direction.

~H

Cause they know, and so do I, The high road is hard to find
A detour to your new life, Tell all of your friends goodbye

[rdufokker 6]

So during thunderstorm season when wind shifts 180 degrees at 15kts. this should be a shrug of the shoulders and a "well those are the breaks on that landing". And, now take a Stiletto or Katana or any other really high performance canopy and land in a 15kt tailwind because that's what was set up 20 minutes earlier when the aircraft left the ground. Hey I got an even more fun idea, step out of a car doing 30-35mph and see how that feels...oh and do a "PLF" that'll make it more tolerable. Bullshit. We come up with all these fixes where teaching really good canopy awareness and windsock reading should be more stressed. I'm lucky, I jump at a place where if the arrow is not aligned even remotely close to the wind and the wind is strong (cause I can look at a windsock and tell) then I just land away from everyone, and into the wind.

Bruno

Irony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread"

[Amazon 7]

Other option is to do a water landing with a BIG splash in that nice little puddle just 100 Ft South of the flag.... I will do the video

DUDE.. its a VERY big field over there at the student landing area...... not EVERYONE needs to land right by the flag and the bus. Ask Todd or one of the other instructors about landing farther out away from everyone else if you are not comfortable with following the pattern when the wind is variable.

[danielcroft 2]

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The point here is not that FPD is ideal; it's not. It's just a reasonable solution to a problem with no perfect solutions.

The core issue with FPD is that people cannot plan their landing pattern. Yes, I can generally plan what my pattern would be depending on the landing direction which, in practice, will be known before the jump but assuming that pattern would be a mistake because the FPD could choose to land in whichever direction they feel is appropriate at the time. This is the main advantage of FPD and the main flaw. Once any other person on the load lands contrary to FPD, the patterns of the following jumpers is thrown into doubt. With FPD you trade predictability for adaptability, that's not a problem for most (I hope!) experienced jumpers with even a passing interest in canopy flight but what about the low time jumpers and students? With a predetermined pattern (agreed, tetrahedron, etc.) that's not a problem.

[DSE 3]

At many, although not all DZ' that operate under the FMD principle, landing away from the main area is an option. Sure, it may be a longer walk back to the hangar but a longer walk beats an ambulance ride if winds, confidence, experience, or combination are a concern.

[kuai43 7]

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Ahh, the joys of FMD/FPD.

Ok, you seem to be the first to trot it out, so I'll pick on you...

FMD/FPD/First Soulless Ginger-haired Hermaphrodite With A Gimp Leg Down - wtf? Is everyone trying so hard to be PC?

Can't we simply make it FSBD (First Sentient Being Down)? After all, what the fuck are you going to do once the dolphins start jumping?

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess