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Calvin19

Really unimpressed with arrogant twatmuppets.

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So I'm sure that if you know his comp swoop number, you got his name. Call him up or email him and have it out with him. It just looks like you are seeking validation here from people who were not there and are only getting a one-sided story. You need your validation to come straight from the horse that bit you.

Give him the whole story and see what he says. All of the swoopers I've talked to are pretty easy going if you shoot them straight right off the bat. After all, most of them are not skygods -- they just hop and pop.:)

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

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>All I asked this guy was how to pack it. It was a blatant "You are not
>cool enough to be in this hangar" move.

Sorry if I misunderstood. You originally said "He was not rude, very honest" which I took to mean that he was not rude and obnoxious. If he was rude and obnoxious, then sure, he was a dick.

But I'm glad there are people willing to piss other people off in the name of safety instead of just "going with the flow" and "not making waves." All too often I see people ignoring safety issues like other jumpers not wearing their seatbelts, flying erratic patterns, getting too close under canopy, not leaving enough time between groups etc because they don't want someone to think they're a "twatmuppet." We need more people who will speak up when they see something unsafe, not fewer. Even if they do get called nazis or twats.

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>OK, so Calvin said he rounded down to 500. Whatever. Let's pretend he
>does have 500.

Let's ask you the same question.

A guy shows up at your DZ. He has an old Skyflyer 3 and has 190 jumps. (He's rounding down, he really has 250 and is a surfer, but you don't know that.) He asks you how to hook up the suit to his rig.

You say "hey, dude, you don't want to be trying that without some instruction."

He says "Yeah, Dad, I know, but I've tracked a lot. Now are you going to help me or not?"

For the purposes of this example, let's say you have wingsuit experience and your two choices are to help him hook it up or not help him hook it up. (i.e. "give him a first flight course/hours of instruction" is not an option.)

What would you do?



I would have asked more questions. Could have been done on the spot or while looking at the gear. Either way I would have more information to make a decision. It would be very easy (and friendly) to chat with the jumper about his experience. If i felt that he lacked the experience to safely do what he wanted to do then i would let the person know and maybe recomend a course of action or a person to talk to. (Since you said myself giving the information wasn't available.)

If the swooper was truely worried about Calvins safety he could have asked another question. Even "hey that's a pretty fast canopy, do you have any experience on it?" or "how much do you weigh?" The answer to either of these questions should have put him at ease enough to answer a simple packing question...

The point in both the real situation and the hypothertial one is that it would be wrong for the person who is being asked the question to make an assumption based on the answer to one question. Isn't everyone always whining that we need to look out for each other and be more supportive to instruction to keep our sport alive?
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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So I'm sure that if you know his comp swoop number, you got his name. Call him up or email him and have it out with him. It just looks like you are seeking validation here from people who were not there and are only getting a one-sided story. You need your validation to come straight from the horse that bit you.

Give him the whole story and see what he says. All of the swoopers I've talked to are pretty easy going if you shoot them straight right off the bat. After all, most of them are not skygods -- they just hop and pop.:)



I plan on doing just that, only next weekend I'll do a few wingsuit jumps and if he is there I will talk to him. I feel bad going on dorkzone and bitching like a baby instead of doing this just then.

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Sorry if I misunderstood. You originally said "He was not rude, very honest" which I took to mean that he was not rude and obnoxious. If he was rude and obnoxious, then sure, he was a dick.



I maintain that he was not obnoxious, or even rude in the sense of normal human interaction, but I feel he was out of line. All he had to answer with is "you do nothing abnormal packing a Velocity". Instead he decided to puff his chest and furl his assfeathers. I even would have understood and thought little of it if he had sat me down and talked about canopy piloting and wing loading. he attached his entire answer to a number that myself and other feel is within the adequate experience limits of the equipment I was using. I was not jumping a 69' canopy, I was PACKING a 110' canopy.


I also admit I am here for justification in being surprised at this interaction with another jumper.

I teach speed flying, and If someone comes at me with questions about flying 6m gliders (65'^2!) in their first month of flying, I will never tell them "I will not teach you anything, go away"

I will explain what happens, talk with them about it, give them a flight on one of my smaller gliders within their safe range, see where their skill level is at, and make my decision and advise then.

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I feel this happens a lot, and the main reason I got out of skydiving regularly. Got a rig again, and want to start being at the DZ more than once a month, but this, again, makes me rethink it.



I think that you're the one with the problem, not the other guy. The reason being that the other guy has two choices - his first choice is to assume that you know what you're doing (which he has no reason to do if he doesn't know you) and either say nothing at all, or just help you pack. In either case, if you end up hurting yourself under canopy, he'll know that he could have said something and didn't.

The other choice is to say something to you, where the worst thing that happens is your feelings are hurt. The best thing that might happen is that you get the idea that the canopy is something to be concerned about, and you proceed accordingly.

Here's where I think you have a problem - you should know full well that open canopy incidents are the number one killer in skydiving. You should also know that in the last few years canopy collisions between swoopers and non-swoopers have done some serious damage.

Now keeping in mind that this guy doesn't know you, and maybe he had seen you act like a jumper with 500 jumps earlier in the day. After all, you do only have 500 jumps, and all of your canopy related expereince will only help you with the last 100ft.(which is important and a real assest to you), but in the end you probably look like a guy with 500 jumps, which in general terms is not enough to be jumping a Velocity.

So when you look at the situation, you can see that the guy had reason to believe that you might just be another FNG who's in over his head, and doesn't even know how to pack the high performance canopy he's jumping.

I think I laid out a fair and realistic view of the situation. Given the above, your choice was to lie about your jumps, and ignore the guy.

The far more productive route would have been to explain that this was a borrowed rig, and that your usual canopy was a 120 or a 107 due to your extremely light weight, and that you don't really swoop any of them, including the Velocity. This would have opened up a course of conversation where you would have had the opportunity to explain your related experience, and then maybe, just maybe listen to the viewpoint of a much more experienced skydiver and accomplished swooper who probably would have had good advice for you in general.

While it's too bad your feelings were hurt, you should see your situation for what it is, and what it must look like to everyone else. On top of that, how about being realistic with yourself with regards to your related expereince. While you might be one bad ass motherfucker on a GL slope, or the side of a mountain, on the DZ you still only have 500 jumps, and you're not a bad ass motherfucker. Maybe try seeing a guy questioning your skydiving choices as a guy you could learn something from as opposed to guy you should blow off, and then mock on the internet.

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I teach speed flying, and If someone comes at me with questions about flying 6m gliders (65'^2!) in their first month of flying, I will never tell them "I will not teach you anything, go away"




The problem is that you didn't ask anything about flying a Velo, and by virtue of having an unpacked one over your shoulder, you already had. Then you asked how to pack it, which is very basic info a pilot qualified to fly a Velo would have.

Imagine if a pilot showed up to your GL site with the highest performance speed wing they make. Picture this guy, in your experiecned eyes, acting like a moderately experienced pilot, not an expert pilot. Then, to top it all off, he asks you a question that should be common knowledge and key to piloting such a glider, such as, "Hey, how do you launch these little wings, with brakes or rear risers?".
That's essentailly the situation for the guy who spoke to you.

Imagine the other sceanrio, and you mention to the guy he might be out of his league with that wing, wouldn't your opinion change if he said to you, "I know it's a small wing, but I'm a professional swooper, and my normal canopy is even smaller then this. I've got 5000 jumps, and am a high performance canopy competitor and coach".

It changes the picture, and probably your attitude towards the guy. You could have done the same, and changed the other guy's attitude towards you.

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I am no badass GL pilot, I can hold my own on skis and foot with a glider, but not on the level of most team pilots or European pilots.

I read your post, and I appreciate the honesty. I agree, the best course of action would have been to confront him about it, and not bitch on dorkzone.

I felt that he was not trying to hurt my feelings, just trying to massage his.

of course I know about canopy incident being the only way to likely get hurt anymore. and of course I know mid air logistics and rules. I know and respect more than anyone out there the need to be aware under canopy, in a full 360 degree sphere. I just lost my best friend to an asshole not paying attention.

Also, I am obviously not a heavy guy. soaking wet I could be 150. but I am 135-140. I was quick to communicate that I do not swoop and I am lightweight. As for "acting like I have 500 jumps", I have no idea what they think of me. at that DZ I am known for my paragliding and speed riding. When I put the rig on, everyone on the load knew I was jumping it, and no one said a word. never jumping a velo before, I even asked a velo pilot if there was anything I should know. "you are light, just don't over-correct the opening" was the reply. I pulled high (after declaring I would) and landed away from the student LZ, and was commended by the DZ Manager for following proper approach patterns.

So, thanks, I see that I could be slightly to blame for "acting like I have 500 jumps".

-SPACE-

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I teach speed flying, and If someone comes at me with questions about flying 6m gliders (65'^2!) in their first month of flying, I will never tell them "I will not teach you anything, go away"




The problem is that you didn't ask anything about flying a Velo, and by virtue of having an unpacked one over your shoulder, you already had. Then you asked how to pack it, which is very basic info a pilot qualified to fly a Velo would have.

Imagine if a pilot showed up to your GL site with the highest performance speed wing they make. Picture this guy, in your experiecned eyes, acting like a moderately experienced pilot, not an expert pilot. Then, to top it all off, he asks you a question that should be common knowledge and key to piloting such a glider, such as, "Hey, how do you launch these little wings, with brakes or rear risers?".
That's essentailly the situation for the guy who spoke to you.

Imagine the other sceanrio, and you mention to the guy he might be out of his league with that wing, wouldn't your opinion change if he said to you, "I know it's a small wing, but I'm a professional swooper, and my normal canopy is even smaller then this. I've got 5000 jumps, and am a high performance canopy competitor and coach".

It changes the picture, and probably your attitude towards the guy. You could have done the same, and changed the other guy's attitude towards you.



I did ask the owner of the rig and a jumper on the load about flying the canopy.

I DO see your point, but I was asking the guy for a packing tip.

even as far as normal non-GL experienced norms go, I do not think I was out of my league jumping this canopy at 1.35 wing loading (with 500~ jumps and 200 on small canopies). was I?


I feel a more appropriate hypothetical scenario would be myself at the bottom of the Speed flying hill packing up my glider, when a moderately experienced pilot asks me the cleanest way to lay out a moderately advanced glider for launch.

Maybe I made too big a deal about it, and that is my fault.

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>I would have asked more questions.

Not one of your two choices. (i.e. you have a student and are getting on the plane with them, you're about to leave etc.) Every question you ask him gets the response "don't worry, dude, I'll be fine." You can help him or not; what do you do?

I agree, if you had lots of time you could ask him questions, determine his background, see if anyone else knew him etc. But often I don't have that time; when I'm training or doing video for a team I have maybe 5 minutes free between loads between dubbing/packing or debriefing/dirt diving the next one. During the season a lot of people (especially the people who are competing) have the same sort of time constraints.

When you don't have time, sometimes you have to make the best call you can in the 60 seconds you have. And that doesn't make you a twat - even if you do tell him it's not safe for him to do it, and you won't help him hook it up.

Wast this guy in the same situation? Maybe, maybe not. Hard to tell. But I'd want to know that before condemning him.

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You keep referencing all of the things that YOU know, and know about, but the guy who talked to you most likely didn't know any of that. Think about what it must have looked like to him. It's a picture that doesn't add up - a guy he doesn't know, who doesn't look like a high time jumper but is jumping a top of the line canopy, and now has questions about how to pack it. It doesn't look good.


Here's the other thing, if you did turn out to be the next FNG to drill himself into the runway, what will that do to the DZ? It's guaranteed to shut the place down for the day, maybe the weekend. All of the jumpers and spectators there will have to witness a fatality. No doubt the news cameras will show up, and it will be in the local papers for every prospective tandem student to see. None of this is good for business, and if your family gets a hair up their ass and sues the DZ, that could very well shut the place down.

With these things in mind, I would have done the same thing as the dude the spoke to you. I am very territorial about my home DZ because I'm concerned for the people and the life of the business itself. I'm not going to stand there silent as some dick-licking asshat shows up and puts the whole operation at risk (remember, it's what it looks like, not the reality that the guy was dealing with).

Again, to put in terms more personal to you, hwo do you react when some shithead dayblazes your favorite exit point? Or is there with you on a night jump, and is talking too lound and taking calls on his cell with the ringer on. You'd be pissed, for sure.

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I dont think the guy did anything wrong. But im no great swooper eighter. One thing that has not been adressed is your location. Was it Mile Hi? If so that changes everything. That 111 would fly more like a 96 or a 103, I think you should explain your situation to him and see what his response is. He may just change his opinion:)

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Well, then I guess I should thank the guy for keeping me alive and the DZ in business. :P:)

Thanks for the help, I will talk to him about it if I see him next weekend.

normally I jump a Stilletto 120 or a Saber 150(WS). so, probably will not have this problem again.

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>One thing that has not been adressed is your location. Was it Mile Hi? If
>so that changes everything.

Location listed as "Conifer Bandit DZ, Colorado." Average elevation of Colorado is 6800 feet; let's call it 4000 feet at the DZ.

As an exercise, based purely on 'circumstantial' evidence (i.e. user profile) what canopy size would Brian Germain recommend?

Exit weight is listed as 150lbs, also as 135-140. Exit weight per user profile is 160lbs. Jump #'s are 574 skydives (total jumps - BASE jumps) over 7 years. About 82 skydives a year that might provide relevant canopy experience; presumably no BASE jumps were made with small ellipticals.

Canopy is a full elliptical, about as aggressive as they come.

Germain's chart only goes up to 500 jumps, so let's look at the <500 jump row:

Absolute maximum size 120 square feet. Compensations:
4000 foot DZ - +20 square feet
Less than 100 jumps a year - +15 square feet
Fully elliptical - add one size

So per Germain for a <500 jump jumper, minimum would be about 170 square feet, given the above assumptions and no additional information.

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>One thing that has not been adressed is your location. Was it Mile Hi? If
>so that changes everything.

Location listed as "Conifer Bandit DZ, Colorado." Average elevation of Colorado is 6800 feet; let's call it 4000 feet at the DZ.

As an exercise, based purely on 'circumstantial' evidence (i.e. user profile) what canopy size would Brian Germain recommend?

Exit weight is listed as 150lbs, also as 135-140. Exit weight per user profile is 160lbs. Jump #'s are 574 skydives (total jumps - BASE jumps) over 7 years. About 82 skydives a year that might provide relevant canopy experience; presumably no BASE jumps were made with small ellipticals.

Canopy is a full elliptical, about as aggressive as they come.

Germain's chart only goes up to 500 jumps, so let's look at the <500 jump row:

Absolute maximum size 120 square feet. Compensations:
4000 foot DZ - +20 square feet
Less than 100 jumps a year - +15 square feet
Fully elliptical - add one size

So per Germain for a <500 jump jumper, minimum would be about 170 square feet, given the above assumptions and no additional information.

LMAO !!!! you guys really have no idea......

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LMAO !!!! you guys really have no idea......

this is where you are wrong, we do have an idea, that idea is based on watching friends and those we care about frapping in under canopies that they have no business being on in the 1st place.
Mad Skillz or not.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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LMAO !!!! you guys really have no idea......



About what? No really, I have no idea what you're talking about. You turned an entire post into a quote, and the sum total of your comments are "You guys have no idea".

I would suggest that we have some idea, and if you read the thread you'll see that the OP has also agreed that we have a valid thought or two, so your comment is even harder to understand.

Care to elaborate on your thoughts? Maybe share an idea or two?

Even before you reply, I'm willing to bet that for every idea you have regarding canopy piloting and selection, I have two ideas and each of them are three times as good as yours.

That's how confident I am in my position, now let's see how confident you are in yours.

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One of the things that occurs to me is that you fault the fellow for not wearing the teacher hat.

You say that you teach speed flying, and that you would never just tell someone to go away.

You really didn't approach him as a student-to-instructor, but you fault him for not acting like an instructor.

We can discuss all day if we should all be instructors all the time, but when it comes right down to it, not everybody wants to be an instructor, and even instructors don't always want to be instructing all the time.

Also, you first say that he wasn't rude or obnoxious. In your original post you tell us he said, ""I am not going to help you, I do not think you have the experience to be jumping that advanced of a parachute".

But later you say, 'It was a blatant "You are not cool enough to be in this hangar" move. '

That's pretty obnoxious. But I think you did some reading into the original answer to get there.

The way I see it, you really didn't give the guy a fair chance to respond to you in the manner you thought would be appropriate.

So, even if he was being a bit of a turd, you contributed something to the poor outcome too.

If you want someone's help on something, it greatly improves your chances of success to appear help-able.

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Care to elaborate on your thoughts? Maybe share an idea or two?



Hell no, he doesn't have Jack Shit of an idea. He's just an anonymous Yahoo doing a drive-by post. I'm sure he has way too much Mad Skilz to even deal with adding up those numbers and wingloadings.

Kevin K.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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Would this thread exist if the guy in fabula replied:
"I don't know you and I don't have time right now"
(with "If I ever will" smile to it)

And isn't 'confidence' a feeling one has just before knowing all of the factors involved?

_________________________________
don't kill me today - got toothache
What goes around, comes later.

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> "how many jumps do you have?", "500 or so" I replied, even though I have more than that . . .

OK, so you weren't completely honest with him.

>"I am not going to help you, I do not think you have the experience to be
>jumping that advanced of a parachute" was all I got.

>He was not rude, very honest . . .

So he was not rude, was very honest (and apparently gave you his best advice based on your dishonest representation of your jump numbers) - and you think he's an arrogant twatmuppet?

>and the main reason I got out of skydiving regularly.

If that sort of thing bothers you, that's probably a good call on your part.



I'll just say what everyone is thinking Billvon. You're such a twatmuppet.



Funny. That wasn't what I was thinking at all.

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Sounds to me like the problem is your bruised ego, its as if you expected this guy to know who you are and what experience you have. Even with your speed flying experience taken into account (base does not count) I would still be confused and concerned in equal amounts with your jumping this canopy. The velocity is made for high performance flight and landings, jumping without any experience of swooping, at a wing load of 1.35, with little skydiving currency, at super elevation just makes no kind of sense to me.
Ask yourself, what made him ask about you jump numbers? If I had seen you landing straight in on a velocity 111 in the student landing area, (ie not displaying any sign of the skills this canopy was designed for) and then been asked by you a very basic packing questions that suggests that you had never even jumped one before, and you told me you had 500 jumps I would say the exact same thing. Im not usually part of the canopy police but that fact you cant see why this guy said and acted the way he did warrants a reality check. I think I know who you are talking about too and if it is, you should really take notice of his opinion on this.

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Seems to me that not many people have considered that the pilot didn't feel comfortable giving ANY advice under the circumstances (not knowing who this is I can only guess this is the reason). I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

When I think about some of the phone calls I've gotten from DZO's because a pilot said something like "I spoke to Ian about a canopy piloting and he's cool with me doing 270's" when the actual conversation was fleeting, and never 'condoned' any action a jumper was taking, I can't help but sympathize with being cautious about any advice given out.

The reality is this: Jumpers hear what they want to hear, and more often than not ANY advice given is taken by the pilot as "He helped me out so I'm doing well".
Conversely, when cautionary advice is given, or none at all - the opposite reaction of "They're just trying to hold me back, etc" is had.

So who exactly is the twatmuppet? The person who politely declined to give advice(for whatever reason), or the person who came on the internet to complain about it?

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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