Fall rate...any suggestions?

[SafetyNate 0]

If you want to increase your weight with out increasing WL, just toss your weights over the landing area. That will give you a good target and help with your accuracy.


Stay Safe.

[muff528 3]

You could always do "freestyle".......... not that there's anything wrong with that!

[labrys 0]

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If you want to increase your weight with out increasing WL, just toss your weights over the landing area. That will give you a good target and help with your accuracy.

Tossing them as soon as one gets a good grip on the base is also a pretty good way to check the spot.

Owned by Remi #?

[Reginald 0]

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You can say "fix your body position and learn to fly without weights" all you want, but if your body position is correct and you still can't fall fast enough, you simply need weights.

One I started wearing enough weight, I was actually able to start fixing my body position. When you're our size (I'm 5' 6" 120lbs), flying without weight is going to get you to start bad habits.

Exactly. Light jumpers not wearing the right amount of weight build in terrible habits in terms of their body position.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Psychonaut 0]

Not to hijack however it's on topic;

Does anyone have an opinion on flying mantis with your hands in by your pecks vs puttings your hands/arms back behind you?

I personally haven't tried behind me but I have been planning on it; I fly mantis very often.

The only thing I can think of besides personal preference and comfort level is the fact of how the air will flow more smoothly if your arms are behind your back as opposed to sitting there in front of you. Or am I over thinking and will that not make any difference at all?

Stay high pull low

[Remster 24]

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Not to hijack however it's on topic;

Does anyone have an opinion on flying mantis with your hands in by your pecks vs puttings your hands/arms back behind you?

I personally haven't tried behind me but I have been planning on it; I fly mantis very often.

The only thing I can think of besides personal preference and comfort level is the fact of how the air will flow more smoothly if your arms are behind your back as opposed to sitting there in front of you. Or am I over thinking and will that not make any difference at all?

By bringing your elbows forward, you can arch a lot more. If you bring your hands behind your back, you cancel a significant amount of arch.

Remster

[rehmwa 2]

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Does anyone have an opinion on flying mantis with your hands in by your pecks vs puttings your hands/arms back behind you?........the fact of how the air will flow more smoothly if your arms are behind your back as opposed to sitting there in front of you. Or am I over thinking and will that not make any difference at all?

By bringing your elbows forward, you can arch a lot more. If you bring your hands behind your back, you cancel a significant amount of arch.

I agree with all of your posts here Remster -

Psychonaut - it will make a ton of difference, but exactly backwards from what you think - elbows narrow will let you fall faster and the air flows smoother.....

In addition, if you are trying to go faster, bringing the elbows forward, and even rolling your palms in (grabbing your pecks) will take the arms (elbows) out of the airstream - reducing the drag by reducing the amount of body presented to the wind (you just pulled hands/forearms/elbows/half the upper arms and shadowed them with your torso).

Frankly, putting your hands behind your back just puts your arms on either side of your torso (thus maximizing the area of body presented to the relative wind and putting it adjacent to the torso - so not only just as much total area as in the wide stance (minus your hands only), but now it's all together into a single blunt body (arm/torso/arm) where, before, it was just a smaller blunt body (torso) with two arms sticking out). It's like an extra square foot of drag or more compared to elbows narrow.

as for the airflow comment - I think the air will flow more smoothly with the arms in front if you sit up nice and high. With the arms in back, the arch is reduced, and the crease between the torso and arms is just another area for air to stagnate at.

This discussion is reminiscent of when old timers are trying to increase the base fallrate and tell everyone to 'take high grips' - it's totally counterproductive to the goal.



Edit: I'll withdraw this whole post for anyone that can completely dislocate each shoulder in freefall and roll their entire arm (shoulder to finger) completely behind their back and under their rigs. Let's call this the "Venus DiMilo" technique

Small women at my DZ ask me how to fall faster from a base mantis - Lift head and chin and shoulders VERY high, grab your boobs (get upper body narrow), knees together (get lower body narrow) and feet on butt, push down the pubes hard - so far 100% success rate for every one of them.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Psychonaut 0]

Awesome guys thanks for the input.. it makes perfect sense.

Stay high pull low

[noname 0]

The tunnel will be great for you!

IF you have a good coach, how about a fall rate dive. No focusing on getting to formation or turning points. No grips, face to face, and just match your instrutor as he/she changes their fall rate. I did a few and found it really helpful.

Or, more beer and cheeseburgers should do the trick!

[rehmwa 2]

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No grips, face to face, and just match your instrutor as he/she changes their fall rate. I did a few and found it really helpful.

those are so much fun!! both as the coach and the coached - the best part is you can see all the details with the coach right there - how they hold their arms and hips and what they do with legs/shoulders/chin/hips, etc. My best session on one of these was a mantis camp with Lise Aune coaching - she is FANTASTIC - her body type combined with her perfect technique is crystal clean, you can't help but learn when you mimic her - that and the smiles

I can't wait for our tunnelcamp next month - I'm teaching 3 newbies basic mantis camp over 2 days, then we have 2 days of team training -

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[danielcroft 2]

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Once you get down what in the hell are you going to do. You can take gripps or even fly your slot in that position. You come out of the position and you will pop back up.

Sparky

That's just to get down to a formation when I'm diving or it's funneled. I agree though, I didn't mean that I flew that way all the time.

When I finally got a bootie suit, I had to change my body position a bit to get my fall rate right again.

[chuckakers 369]

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I am not a big advocate of wearing weights.

Why not? It works.

I am just saying that at this point the OP is a fairly new jumper. I would just advise she continue to learn to fly her body. I would curiously wonder what her fall rate actually is.

I know plenty of people who wear led, but they are also pretty experienced.

It is a personal choice for me not to. I just know I have to work a little harder based on the group I am jumping with. As a result I have a really wide range.

I'm glad you can jump without weights, but the simple fact is there are people who can't function well in even the most basic RW (or FS for the new crowd) situations because they are forced to fly in all kinds of contorted positions to stay down with the vast majority of jumpers at their DZ.

I take exception with your and some other people's view that there is some level of experience needed before slapping on a weightbelt. I've heard this ever since the typical fall rate reached speeds where weights were needed by a lot of small jumpers. Adding weights doesn't stop a younger jumper from "flying their body" as you put it. Whether you train with weights or without, you are most certainly still flying your body. The weights simply allow the jumper to use a mid-range body position to fall a mid-range speed, relatively speaking. It's no different than a bigger person wearing a baggier jumpsuit to nuetralize to the slow side.

Not putting weights on young jumpers when they would clearly benefit from them is silly on it's face. To do so means they will learn how to fly all bent up and bobbing in and out of formations, go home with a back hurting so bad they don't make it out on Sunday, and then have to learn to fly all over again when you think they have enough jumps for lead.

You know, there was a time when throwouts on students was sport death. But that changed when they actually started putting students on throwouts.

It is a peice of equipment like any other you use when jumping out of planes. Understand it's functions and limitations, train to operate it properly, inspect it, and climb out. After all, the spot's gettin' long.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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[muff528 3]

[reply...........................I am just saying that at this point the OP is a fairly new jumper. I would just advise she continue to learn to fly her body. ...............................

[TiaDanger 0]

From this post, I actually have a better view of weights. I wanted to make sure I was helping myself as much as possible by doing what I could do to fall faster. Im not having a horrible problem if the formation stays together the entire jump, because other heavier people are also trying to slow up to keep it level. When an exit funnels, and people race to rejoin the low man, it seems like they fall so fast after that I cannot get down to them. Granted, my experience has much to do with the problem--I simply don't know enough to kick on the burners to get down to them. I fight to increase my fall rate to rejoin but end up hovering above. During this time I actively try to decrease surface area, arch and try different positions of mantis, but never rejoin the group....and that pisses me off!

And for the record: the appropriate ranking of cool modes of transportation is jet pack, hover board, transporter, Batmobile, and THEN giant ant.
D.S. #8.8

[davelepka 4]

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When an exit funnels, and people race to rejoin the low man, it seems like they fall so fast after that I cannot get down to them. Granted, my experience has much to do with the problem--

Maybe, but there's a chance you're performing at an appropriate level, and your weight (or lack of it) is the limiting factor.

Don't misuderstand jumping with weights, they won't do the flying for you. You still have to perfrom to make things happen, the weights just make things happen at a different speed.

Let's say that you can fall as slow as 95 and as fast as 115 on your belly. If you're on a dive with a fall rate 112 you can stay with that by going fast. If the skydive should speed up or funnel, you don't have very much room to 'speed up'.

If you put on a weight belt, you'll have the same 20 mph speed range, but maybe now it will be from 105 to 125. You can still fly with the formation at 112, but you can also pick up the pace a little more if you need to.

The weights will not change the moves you have to make, or the flying you have to do, they will just change what you're looking at while you do it. No more looking down at everyone, and more looking across at everyone.

[muff528 3]

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....................I simply don't know enough to kick on the burners to get down to them........................

Trust me! No one really wants you to do that.......yet!

[ufk22 32]

There is an alternative to adding wieghts or changing your body position, and his name is "Ponce". Never heard anyone complaining about floating out of his skydives.
But seriously, suggesting you should learn to fly without weights is like suggesting the big guys should learn to fly with skin-tight jumpsuits. It's possible, but why?????
Adding some weight fill not only make yor dives more enjoyable, it will increase your learning curve by allowing to fly in a "comfortable range" rather than being on the ragged edge. I'm 5'11", 195, and getting a jumpsuit that slowed me down a little at about 50 jumps suddenly made me twice the flyer I had been.
In terms of getting down after a funnel,

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[pinkfairy 0]

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PM dz.commer VanillaSkyGirl (Rosa). She's lighter than you and able to jump on big-way formations. Maybe she'll have a few suggestions for you.

Or Pinkfairy, who's doing the same.



If you're not comfortable landing your canopy with the extra weight required for your dicipline of choice, then you've got a too small canopy. Weights are required for lightweights like us if we want to do FS. Sorry, that's the truth. I met VanillaSkygirl this fall, and she was jumping a Spectre 150 at the time, looks from her profile like she still is. It's not an exciting canopy, not a fun swooping instrument, but it did it's job. I have a new Pilot 111 now, but I jumped my 100 first jumps on a 150 (Sabre and Silhouette), then downsized to a Pilot 132, then to a 124.

My local dealer told me I NEEDED a 132 @ 50 jumps when I was ordering my new gear, thankfully I made decisions myself and chose what I felt comfortable with at the time, not what everyone else told me I needed.

I'm not saying that you can't land your Sabre2 135 with weights, you'd probably be fine, but at this stage, the canopy is for getting you safely to the ground (well, mine is still for that, nothing else), and you should feel good about it. If you don't, then that's a pretty good indication that it's too small. Remember, you are the one landing it, and it's supposed to be for fun.

Tunnel, like someone else here suggested, is also a good idea, because you'll learn to fall fast while staying in one place instead of backsliding.

Other than that? get jumping! get experience in flying your canopy, learn to land it well, and you won't worry so much about weights.

Blues!

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[Chris_K 0]

To be clear:

At the beggining she stated that she can match a groups fall rate once she is close. She just can't get down to them quickly enough if the exit funnels.

This menas that she is able to fall at the same speed as a formation, she just does not know how to quickly get down to a formation that is way below her.

An experienced jumper would simply dive to get down to a formation. She does not know how to do that yet.

Your discussion is on keeper her with a formation if she is floaty. the discussion should be on ways to get down quickly to a formation if its way below you.

Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

[Chris_K 0]

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Just a couple more quick points -

The OP here has 50 jumps, and all of the thought she puts toward just satying down with the formation (without weights) is thought that she cannot put toward taking grips, maintaining lateral proximity, eye contact, altitude awareness, etc.

Again, Joe Jumper gets to sit there in a realxed body position, and he can focus on all of those other factors. When you take a newbie and direct their focus to a basic (and easily repairable) problem, you remove their opportunity to learn the other things the average size guys can focus on.

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To put my comments in perspective i am 6,1 200 Lbs

Just to clarify exactly what that perspective is, you're as average as average gets. The problems you tell the OP are really 'no problem' are not problems you yourself have struggled with.

I'm sure you have examples here and there, of out-of-the-ordinary situaitons where you had to struggle to keep up, but to go through it every jump for the entire freefall is another story, and can have some real negative effects on a new jumper.

This was to show range of speed.

as I stated above: Mia is a bit shorter then my GF and about the same weight. My GF can easily do 135mph without weight.

If Mia learns to fly using weights at first she will take longer to come out of the student wide box position and fly in a nice and compact, yet comfortable position.

Its true that weights do help in the beggining but If you can train to fly comfortable and compact, why not try for that as it will speed up your overall learning curve as long as you are not so far out of your comfort zone.

Most new jumpers fly a HUGE box position and are still realy wide when they arch, this is very counter prodcutive as getting small is the answer = less surface area.

Someone assumed I was refering to struggling each jump. This is a wrong assumption as I was refering to being within that comfortable range by simply flying a comfortable mantis (or tighter) like position.

If you are flying nice and tight and comfortable and you are still floating, then get weights.

Remember Mia said she could keep up with formations, just could not get down to them if they funneled.

Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

[davelepka 4]

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Mia is a bit shorter then my GF and about the same weight. My GF can easily do 135mph without weight.

That's not true. She could easily do 110 or 115. With additional training, hard work, and I think you mentioned some tunnel coaching, she is now able to fly 135 on her belly, and even then I doubt that it's easy.

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If you can train to fly comfortable and compact, why not try for that as it will speed up your overall learning curve as long as you are not so far out of your comfort zone.

So while the OP is busy training to fly comfortable and compact, Joe Jumper is busy being easy and relaxed, having fun with his friends right in the middle of his comfort zone.

As opposed to putting all the effort towrds learning to first adapt to her different body type, then learning to fly with others while compensating for that body type, how about the 20 second solution, put on a weight belt.

From exit to break off on the very next jump, the OP is able to keep up and be comfortable with her current skill level. She gets to have fun with her friends minus the stress of exsessive fall rate mangement.

In 100 jumps, after she know how to fly her body in a nuetral position, and has developed some skill, maybe then drop the weights, and see if she can manage without. At that point she will have a solid foundation to fall back on while learning to go fast without weights. But that comes later.

Taking it easy and having fun is for now.

[ridestrong 1]

I am 6' and have an exit weight of ~185 - 190. I tend to fall pretty slow on my belly so I will occasionally throw on a weight belt when I am doing speed stars or diving out after the base. It definitely helps and I find it easier to slow down with a little extra weight than to try to speed up when you fly slow to begin with. Good luck.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[billvon 2,380]

>Its true that weights do help in the beggining . . .

The opposite is true IMO. Learn to fly without them, then add them to improve your range and performance. VERY few top-level skydiving teams fly without weight on at least one member; often most or all use weight.

It's easy to see jumpers in any formation who are struggling to stay down with the formation. Their legs are on their butt and their arms are in the "W of distress." Sure, they can stay down with the formation that way - but if they dock they are going to have to give up on that W, and they're going to float up (from the wake of the formation + the loss of the W) and backslide (because their legs are on their butt.)

>Remember Mia said she could keep up with formations, just could not
>get down to them if they funneled.

That could almost define "underweighted."

[TiaDanger 0]

Thanks for all the suggestions..I actually met up with Chris_K at the DZ last weekend and we spoke about solutions. Unfortunately it rained all week, so no jumping .

However, I did get some tunnel in last week. Since it was my first tunnel session, I didn't get to work much on 'getting small', but my next tunnel date is at the end of March and that will be my main priority.

I'm also in the market for a weight belt...anybody gained a few pounds that doesn't need theirs anymore?

And for the record: the appropriate ranking of cool modes of transportation is jet pack, hover board, transporter, Batmobile, and THEN giant ant.
D.S. #8.8

[Chris_K 0]

Tia,

If you get a chance get TJ to do some tunnel coaching with you as well.

He is awesome as a coach and can help you out with all that we discussed.

As we mentioned, get some weights so that you have them to use if you want but I would focus on getting out of the big BOX position first, you will find that it will increase your rate of decent enough.

Many poeple in this discussion are making assumptions on your flying, such as assuming you are flying in the "legs up your butt and arms in the W position". Since these are assumptions that are not reflected in your flying I suggest you talk to TJ as he is local for you and can sort out this issue without any assumptions on how you fly.

I am heading back down to cali (Perris) at the end of Apr to mid may if you want to join.

Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.