Fall rate...any suggestions?

[billeisele 122]

one item I've seen with low-time jumpers that are small framed is that the rig extends past the side of their body, the wind is lifting the rig thus slowing the fall rate

once you downsize and use a smaller rig the fall rate increases, going in the tunnel is a great idea but it may not solve the issue

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[kallend 1,623]

Lead is the answer.

Even Dan BC wears lead on some jumps.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Weights have been mentioned but it's not just the amount of weight that makes the difference. Experiment with different positions and distributions for the weights..........Someone suggested moving the weights closer to my hips and it made all the difference in the world for me.

I have NEVER seen a situation where a vest was a better choice than a belt. Ever. It just doesn't make sense in terms of balance. CG is around the waist/hips - that is where the weights need to be - it's not rocket science at all



to the OP -

Falling faster in the mantis you have two axis to address:
1-width wise on the body - getting narrow is the trick - elbows and forearms into the torso knees together
2-longitudinally (length of the body - same goes for any mantis fall rate though, just fast means you exaggerate these things more) - arching through the pubic area (not the chest) - head/shoulders up VERY high - knees high relative to pubes

Weights - a MUST, so sorry, too bad, deal with it. If you have to tuck your booties above your thighs (by bending your knees to take them out of the airstream/drag) then there really is no point flying Mantis, is there?

Weights - a MUST. If you have pull your hands and wrists into your chest, then there really is no point flying Mantis, is there?

get thee to a tunnel


on the plus side - Mantis will get you MUCH more range than 'old school' boxman and arching as hard as you can - you don't slow down that much (you don't change your area presented to the wind much) and you end up with a sore lower back

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,395]

>I have NEVER seen a situation where a vest was a better choice than a belt. Ever.

I know three women who swear by vests over weight belts - but they're somewhat unusually shaped. For them it helps them fly with their hands more in front of them.

[muff528 3]

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Weights have been mentioned but it's not just the amount of weight that makes the difference. Experiment with different positions and distributions for the weights..........Someone suggested moving the weights closer to my hips and it made all the difference in the world for me.

I have NEVER seen a situation where a vest was a better choice than a belt. Ever. It just doesn't make sense in terms of balance. CG is around the waist/hips - that is where the weights need to be - it's not rocket science at all.........................................

Yep! I agree, especially since I'm built with long legs and a high waist. I got the vest when I was first attempting RW and was told to get one. The important thing is to try to keep most of the dive in the middle of your fall-rate range and if you are bending and pulling limbs in to get down to the formation you will have little ability to adjust when you get there. And, responding to billvon ...... a few (maybe most?) women I've seen with weights use a vest rather than a belt. Also, I once borrowed a rig from a friend that had weights built-in to the back of the container. This seemed to be much more comfortable in the air. An added bonus was that during the opening sequence the weights were not felt tugging on my body during deceleration. This does add to fatigue during a day with several jumps.
There is an advantage to being a "lightweight" -- once you start doing larger formations your slot will likely be on the outer perimeter of the formations. You get to be an early floater or late diver. And when things start to go bad in the middle you can bug out earlier.

[ridestrong 1]

Learn how to sit fly.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Cambalectri 0]

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I wanted to post here because there seem to be more responders here than in just the RW forum. And, I've done the searches, and am still looking for more input. And I do understand to take internet advice with a grain of salt. I'm a 115 lb newbie (50 jumps), and...I find myself floating above the formation many times. I feel like I live in a mantis position and am arching the crap out of my hips, but many times I cant get down. I find this happens a lot if the exit is funneled and we go to reform the group with the low man, I cant seem to keep up with the group thats heading down to the low man. I don't want to resort to weight yet, as I don't yet want to load any higher than 1:1.

For you small jumpers or slow flyers, what helped YOU increase your fall rate to keep up with big jumpers? Do you tuck your hands below your chin? Do you just bring your arms in, but keep them right next to your body? Is there some body position that works good to get a floater down that I'm just not getting? My jumpsuit is nice and tight already.

First you say you don't want a wing load of more than 1:1. At 50 jumps what size canopy are you jump. That would put you under a fairly small canopy already.

I am not a big advocate of wearing weights. I would suggest you work with a coach on several jumps who can really vary their fall rate and who can teach you various techniques to fall faster.

I am a female instructor and I am the one instructor than call fall with one of our 240 pound students who may as well be an anvil. I also fall with our skinny, tall and lanky students. I dress a little differently depending on who I jump with, but I learned early on how to vary my fall rate out of necessity.

You will hear this from any skydiver - faster is better!!

I agree with Kmills...
unless your are in very good shape, do weights and you are very agile, try to avoid all that lead, especially in a belt ! On the long run, it could put some strain on your spinal column and hurt your back, especially, when your canopy opens !
Also, a 12-pound belt, around your waist, as you land that ''new'' canopy with a rotation, will do ''magic'' to your knees ! For now, experiment flying your body otherwise and learn different techniques from others. It will take time.
Then, in a year or two, it will be your own decision !

[CMiller 1]

Get a weight belt. One that holds 20+ pounds.

It just gets worse I promise you. You start doing 4 way, and everybody wants to fall faster. You get nice booties, and they drag more air.

Mantis is bleh and you don't want to be flying like that for RW. I know from experience that if you're not wearing enough weight, it's hard to position your upper body properly. Don't start any bad habits!

[danielcroft 2]

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Mantis is bleh and you don't want to be flying like that for RW.

Huh?

[mjosparky 3]

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I usually tuck my hands (and arms) behind my back and pull my legs all the way in when I want to come down.

Once you get down what in the hell are you going to do. You can take gripps or even fly your slot in that position. You come out of the position and you will pop back up.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jpforget 0]

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Lead is the answer.

Even Dan BC wears lead on some jumps.

Sorry, i can't resist to quote what i saw in a similar thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3675270#3675270

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Re: [VanillaSkyGirl] Should I wear a weight belt? [In reply to] Quote | Reply
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Dan B.C. had about 8 lbs. of lead on the jump.
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What does he know! He should learn to fly his body!

Here is Some reading for people who are interested:
http://skyleague.com/pages/profiles/profile.php?which=DanBrodsky-Chenfield

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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If you want to be a champion in this sport you have to eat like a champion! Cheese cake and fried chicken 4-5 times a day for the next 4.5 months! (should have you up to fighting weight in no time)

be strong!

And for dessert! Eat a stick of butter wrapped in beacon and wash it down with a couple of pints of dark beer!








But seriously, to the OP... I used to jump with a gal that was roughly your same size and she used to wear approaching 30lbs of lead to do 4-way with 3 other medium / average sized guys.

I too hate to advise small / new-folks to start strappin' on the lead, but at the same time, I've seen more than one small gal in a skin-tight jumpsuit that could arch to the point of touching head to toe and still not be able to stay-down and fly at the same time. Seen more then one try and tweak their back too.

Look at it this way, if you're into formation skydiving and you're having the problem of "floating" on the formation, that's not a bad problem to have. At the end of the day, you can take off that weight belt (aka spare tire). I wouldn't be heart broken to get in the way-back machine and go back to being the 15 to 20lbs "less of me" myself I was when I started jumping...

Cheers. Enjoy and let us know how it works out. Understand you're desire to not start strapping on the lead such that you get over 1:1. Go slow... ... I mean, add the lead on in sensible increments you're comfortable with..

[Chris_K 0]

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Thanks guys, for all the input. Tunnel time is scheduled for next Monday night, so I can get instruction then, woo hoo!
I do arch, and I do try and get small, as Chris_K suggested. I feel like I'm trying to get as small as possible by bringing my arms in to mantis. I guess I just wasn't sure if there was any other better way to get the hell down in a hurry if the formation broke apart and was reconnecting below you, or staying with the group once you let go of grippers. I will look into getting small weights. I was just trying to see if there were any body manipulations that I could learn before I started putting weight on.

There are definately a bunch of ways to manipulate your body. As far as weights go, some are for them, some are agaainst them. You can acheive the same effect by learning how to fly your body in a better position versus relying on weights. Using werights you miss out on an opportunity to permanently develop a skill to fall slow or fast.

In my post above when I refered to gettign small, mantis is just the first step. If this is not fast enough then the next step is to bring your arms in front of your upper torso. If this is still not enough then you need to learn how to dop a knee or go into a style tuck. All things that a Big way flyer in your area is best equiped to explain.

Someone above mentioned that bringing your arsm in is good for catching up but once you reach the formation and need your arch, you will pop up. This is false as there are many drills that you can do to learn how to fly using only your torso and using until your torso to control your fall rate. having your arms out in front of you does not mean that you are using them to catch air once you know the tricks.

An example is being able to do a 4-way RW jump with your hands behind your back, completely out of the way. If you can fly like this and control your fall rate you will get used to flying without needing your arms for lift (intentionally or unintentionally).

To put my comments in perspective i am 6,1 200 Lbs and My on belly range is 107 MPH to 148mph strictly on body position, no weights.

A seperate concern is all the guys telling you to use weights. yes they will help you fall faster, yes its not a huge chnage under canopy if you add a few pound, especially if you are around a 1:1 wing loading. My main concern is your safety. My GF is small and tall and had serious problems with weights from the physical effects of wearing them all day. Her hips would get buised and her lower back would hurt. She is 5, 7 and 115 Lbs and had no problem keeping up with the 130 MPH 4-way jumps once we got her into the tunnel to truly learn how to manipulate her body position.

Again, weights will work but i feel it will rob you of the opportunity to learn how to permanenetly adjust your fall rate.

Cheers.

Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

[TiaDanger 0]

Thanks guys...I have a tunnel session on Monday, and then I will look into starting out with light weights. I'll also try to do some of the arm positions some of you recommened next week!

And for the record: the appropriate ranking of cool modes of transportation is jet pack, hover board, transporter, Batmobile, and THEN giant ant.
D.S. #8.8

[kallend 1,623]

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To put my comments in perspective i am 6,1 200 Lbs and My on belly range is 107 MPH to 148mph strictly on body position, no weights.

Well, we aren't all as wonderful as you.

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Again, weights will work but i feel it will rob you of the opportunity to learn how to permanenetly adjust your fall rate.

Cheers.

You should give lessons to Airspeed, they need your help.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[elightle 8]

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Mantis is bleh and you don't want to be flying like that for RW.

Huh?

You can't fly in Mantis when docked on a big-way or when somebody has a grip on you in a whacker. Great for 4-way randoms and movement, not so great on big-ways.

[kallend 1,623]

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Mantis is bleh and you don't want to be flying like that for RW.

Huh?

You can't fly in Mantis when docked on a big-way or when somebody has a grip on you in a whacker. Great for 4-way randoms and movement, not so great on big-ways.

I recall Dan BC giving us that message a couple of years ago at a big-way event. He told the folks flying mantis to fly boxman instead.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[davelepka 4]

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There are definately a bunch of ways to manipulate your body.

Maybe so, but why? Why should this jumper have to manipluate their body, and make all sorts of special considerations when Joe Jumper who's 5' 10" and 175 lbs, gets to be comfortable and relaxed at the same speed.

Just like fat guys use baggy suits, little poeple use weights. There are always exceptions to the rule, and jumpers who 'make it work', but it's never going to put on the same level as Joe Jumper, who gets to wear a comfortable suit, and just relax through his jumps.

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My GF is small and tall and had serious problems with weights from the physical effects of wearing them all day. Her hips would get buised and her lower back would hurt.

There are several solutions to this. For starters, how tight your wear the weight belt, how wide it is, and how the weights are distributed around the belt. All of these will vary from jumper to jumper depending on body size and how their rig fits.

Another solution is to have two sets of straps to secure the belt, one tight and one looser. Wear the belt with loose straps right up until jumprun, and then fasten the tighter straps. Once on the ground, or even under canopy, release the tight straps (it's like unbottoning your pants after Thanksgiving dinner). To follow up on that, you can remove the weight belt right after you land, and carry it in to the hanger over your shoulder.

It's true, there are ways to make things work, and all of these tricks are good to know and indispensible for the odd AFF student who turns out to be a 160 lb cannon ball, but to learn them with the purpose of using them as an 'every jump' solution is setting the jumper for frustration. They'll be working harder than everyone else, and if they have an off day, they can't stay with the formation.

Kallend is really the guy to consult here, as he's (I believe) a physics professor. It's just a fact that the lightweights and big boys (and girls) can't do what Joe Jumper can do.

[jsaxton 0]

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Mantis is bleh and you don't want to be flying like that for RW.

Huh?

You can't fly in Mantis when docked on a big-way or when somebody has a grip on you in a whacker. Great for 4-way randoms and movement, not so great on big-ways.

I recall Dan BC giving us that message a couple of years ago at a big-way event. He told the folks flying mantis to fly boxman instead.

Dan who?

[kmills0705 0]

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I am not a big advocate of wearing weights.

Why not? It works.

I am just saying that at this point the OP is a fairly new jumper. I would just advise she continue to learn to fly her body. I would curiously wonder what her fall rate actually is.

I know plenty of people who wear led, but they are also pretty experienced.

It is a personal choice for me not to. I just know I have to work a little harder based on the group I am jumping with. As a result I have a really wide range.

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

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[davelepka 4]

Just a couple more quick points -

The OP here has 50 jumps, and all of the thought she puts toward just satying down with the formation (without weights) is thought that she cannot put toward taking grips, maintaining lateral proximity, eye contact, altitude awareness, etc.

Again, Joe Jumper gets to sit there in a realxed body position, and he can focus on all of those other factors. When you take a newbie and direct their focus to a basic (and easily repairable) problem, you remove their opportunity to learn the other things the average size guys can focus on.

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To put my comments in perspective i am 6,1 200 Lbs

Just to clarify exactly what that perspective is, you're as average as average gets. The problems you tell the OP are really 'no problem' are not problems you yourself have struggled with.

I'm sure you have examples here and there, of out-of-the-ordinary situaitons where you had to struggle to keep up, but to go through it every jump for the entire freefall is another story, and can have some real negative effects on a new jumper.

[davelepka 4]

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I have to work a little harder based on the group I am jumping with. As a result I have a really wide range.

This is true for everyone from jump to jump. Each jump has it's own fall rate, and somewhere in the middle is the average. Even after you put weights on a jumper, they still have to work to match the fall rate, they're just better equipped to do so.

My feelings are this - if you took a jumper in their RW suit, and tossed them out of the plane solo to fall on their belly, whatever speed they happen to go is 'their' speed. This is their comfortable speed, and if it's not close to an 'average' RW speed, then adjustments need to be made. They should be able to stay with other jumpers, and be in a comfortable position.

[Remster 24]

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This is their comfortable speed, and if it's not close to an 'average' RW speed, then adjustments need to be made. They should be able to stay with other jumpers, and be in a comfortable position.

Exactly. And I know, Dave, that'll you'll also agree that getting in the tunnel to work out a more efficient body position would also help, but to a point only. You dont want to be bent in 1/2 through every skydive.

In the end, it boils down to this:

- get the right jumpsuit for you
- get in the tunnel with a dedicated, experienced RW coach to work on your body position
- get weights to make sure you are in the middle of your range.

EDIT: and if you do have to wear a significant amount of weights (>10lbs), make sure you are still loading your canopies in a range that is acceptable for you.

PS: my wife wears a tight comp suit, has spend quite a bit of time in the tunnel to work out her position with a few very experienced coaches, and wears 14-18 lbs when doing 4way (she's 5'5, 120 lbs)

Remster

[CMiller 1]

You can say "fix your body position and learn to fly without weights" all you want, but if your body position is correct and you still can't fall fast enough, you simply need weights.

One I started wearing enough weight, I was actually able to start fixing my body position. When you're our size (I'm 5' 6" 120lbs), flying without weight is going to get you to start bad habits.

[SSHusky 0]

I weigh 105lbs... I can arch really well, but sometimes when there are funnels its difficult. I wear a tight suit and depending on the jump I might wear 4-25lbs.
When the exit is funneled I dive down to it. Its kinda like a track except you try to put your head down more and I tuck my arms behind me. If its just heavy jumpers and you are arched as much as you can and are wearing weights, I usually opt out of the next jump.
My suggestion is to learn to dive down to a formation. Sooner or later you will have to get good at it.