IS this safe/legal ??

[rwieder 0]

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Your premise is retarded. So just because the fatality rate is close to that of other sports, the poster you replied to should not be upset that some jumpers are engaged in clearly stupid and dangerous behavior?

+1

RE: Doug Davis-

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your fatality rate is almost on par; ie as a sports and industry you guys are doing a great job in terms of safety

WOW! A half/a** compliment from a Kayaker!

And I thought it was just me. This whole topic and thread should never seen the light of day. It's just plum retarded. I can't imagine what DZO in their right mind would allow this type of activity. Does anybody know where this happened? I'd like to know so I could go there and get in a few jumps, looks like they have loads of fun there. Or NOT! I'd like to have a short conversation with the TM-1, the "Clown" on top of the container and the DZO. Somebody has got to tell them they are giving our sport a huge black eye. Sky Diving doesn't need this kind of publicity, we catch enough grief the way it is without Clowns like this. If they have a clear conscience and a good reason for doing what they did, then they shouldn't have any problem contacting me, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

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I'm sure if I dug long enough, I could find a sport with a much lower fatality rate than skydiving, that would make skydiving look terrible. I'm sure I could also find one with a higher rate that would make skydiving look great. Neither one would justify the stupid behavior in the photo that spawned this thread.

+1

Doug_Davis comparing Kayaking to sky diving?!?! That's nuts! As far as a sport that has a much lower mortality rate is; Flying Kites, Skating, Water Skiing, Water melon Chunking Water Melons, Football, Bassetball, Golf, Darts, Miniature Golf, well you get the drift. I'm just being facitious.

I've got to be honest, I'm incensed, concerned, embarrassed and just plain ol' disgusted that they did what they did and then let their posts hit the light of day. I hope the OP, TM-1, and Mr. "Pole Dancer" have the nerve to contact me, but I doubt it, I don't think they have the stones, heck I know they don't.

Well, it's snowing in sheets here in Bastrop County. I went outside and caught a couple of small short film clips, I didn't get all I wanted b/c it's colder than a basement jail cell out side, 25°, wind chill 10° Brrrrrrr Rabbit! Ya'll be cool, no pun intended. Peace to all.

Best-
Richard

[rwieder 0]

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So this is a measuring contest, in skydiving one might say we're very roughtly 100 times better than kayaking when it comes to killing ourselves

Measuring Contests? How's come you Canucks are so concerned about what goes on in the lower 48? It appears you guys need to spend some time on your own judgment calls concerning your own activities. Mind ya'lls own business, and you won't have time to mind our's. We got this, EH?

Best-
Richard

[Doug_Davis 0]

davelepka

Your premise is retarded. So just because the fatality rate is close to that of other sports, the poster you replied to should not be upset that some jumpers are engaged in clearly stupid and dangerous behavior?

I'm sure if I dug long enough, I could find a sport with a much lower fatality rate than skydiving, that would make skydiving look terrible. I'm sure I could also find one with a higher rate that would make skydiving look great. Neither one would justify the stupid behavior in the photo that spawned this thread.

Here's the other MAJOR difference. There is very little stopping 'anyone' from buying a kayak or a rope and going out to paddle or climb on their own. Rivers and rocks are just there for the taking, and it's not tough for people to access them.

Compare that to skydiving. At a minimum, you need an airplane owner and a pilot, both of which have a lot invested in being an airplane owner and/or pilot, and don't want to see that harmed by being a part of someone making an amateur skydive.

Then you need a rig, which not something you can just pick up at the local outfitters. A lay person would have a very hard time getting a hold of a rig, having assembled, and having the slightest idea how to operate it.

So the end result is that that VAST majority of jumps, like something on the high side of 99.9999999%, are made at a DZ which has it's own interests to protect, and thus is going to be keeping a fairly close eye on the actions of all the jumpers.

Given the fairly strict controls over jumpers, and the severely limited access to jumping, it's not surprising that the fatality rate is similar to that of other sports. Can you imagine the safety record of paddling if every river was privately owned, and every paddler had to go through a training course in order to paddle there, and then was watched over before/during/after every time they got in the water?

Firstly, I dont know anything about you personally, but as for myself I find the use of the word "retarded" to be insulting to anyone who might be mentally or learning disabled, or for those of us who might be parents to children in such circumstances. I would ask that you not use such terms please.

Secondly, I didnt say he shouldnt be upset. Thats his right as his feelings are his own.

Thirdly, as to whether or not the stunt was "stupid" is your own opinion. If it was four experienced skydivers, knowingly and willingly participating in the "stunt" that decision is up to them. Personally I think it was probably much safer than the wingsuit proximity flying that happens these days. Your opinion is your own, but it doesnt make you right and everyone else wrong.

Lastly, I assume you are trying to make some point given your comparison of the particulars of skydiving versus kayaking. However I am not really sure what it is. No, the two sports are not similar from a technical standpoint or from the ease of access point. However they dont need to be in order to compare fatality rates between the two. Just as death from stroke and from car wreck are two very different things but we can still compare the rates of incidence to see which is more likely to happen.

I quite agree with you that the access restrictions and required training are what help keep the fatality rates down in skydiving. And if those were in place for kayaking, you are likely right, the fatality rate would probably be even lower. But that doesnt seem to matter as it isnt required and isnt happening at the moment. Although in some cases I do wish training was mandatory.

[Doug_Davis 0]

rwieder

Doug_Davis comparing Kayaking to sky diving?!?!

Yes, I should have known better than to try and have a rational conversation in this forum, where I assert that skydiving is safe in anyway or not the king end all to be all #1 most dangerous and cool adrenaline sport of all time.

Please return to discussing how you are two seconds away from death and any point in time while skydiving, but that this particular jump upped the death quotient to an unacceptable level.

Oh and you and Dave should throw around use of the word "retarded" some more because insulting everyone who has a family member who is learning disabled definitely helps your case and makes you look even cooler.

Now I know why everyone warned me about DZ.com.

[Doug_Davis 0]

pchapman

It is often tough to compare fatality rates, especially when the units in the data are different, as above.

Not really because while I see your point and concern, according to the survey most paddling participants only go on a single trip.
So a single paddling trip would be the same as a single jump for our purposes.
If on average the survey showed they were doing 2,3 or more trips per participant than comparing the two would be much more difficult as you said.

[NWFlyer 2]

Doug_Davis

So while skydiving is seen as much more dangerous than your average kayak trip, your fatality rate is almost on par; ie as a sport and industry you guys are doing a great job in terms of safety.

I'm not going to argue the flaws in your stats; others have done that quite well, but instead, bring it back to your sport.

How would you feel if you heard of a commercial kayaking instruction company that was putting new students out without helmets, or did something else that went against the "industry standard" of the safest way to introduce someone to the sport? Maybe they gave them thorough instruction beforehand, and emphasized safety and even had them sign a waiver. But the instructors are still doing something that they fully understand is increasing the risk, but that the student probably doesn't understand. And the reality is that the odds are very high that they'll probably be fine and no one will actually get hurt. But it doesn't make it a good idea, and it doesn't mean that the recommendations to always wear a helmet should be relaxed because "you are doing a great job in terms of safety."

That's what this picture appears to be (even though we don't actually know - all three participants could be experienced jumpers, in which case their decision to do something stupid is a more "informed" one), and that's why people are getting pissed off about it.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DSE 3]

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Thirdly, as to whether or not the stunt was "stupid" is your own opinion. If it was four experienced skydivers, knowingly and willingly participating in the "stunt" that decision is up to them. Personally I think it was probably much safer than the wingsuit proximity flying that happens these days.

To point a loaded firearm at a police officer is "stupid" in my opinion, and the outcome of that situation is likely less deadly than the image you're suggesting is safe. It seems you're not aware of the potential issues here (that have killed others in the past in similar circumstances).

Proximity flying may seem stupid to you, but it doesn't put a minimum of three people at risk. Proximity is a solo endeavor and not relevant to this conversation in any way.

[pchapman 261]

Doug_Davis

Not really because while I see your point and concern, according to the survey most paddling participants only go on a single trip.

Ok, thanks for that clarification -- I missed recognizing that from your original statement although I could have guessed. That allows a much better comparison. We'd need more numbers to make a clearer distinction between regulars and one-timers in both sports, but going further into comparing skydiving and other sports, that's starting to diverge from the overall thread.

[Doug_Davis 0]

DSE

These aren't all licensed skydivers, and it seems you're not aware of the potential issues here (that have killed others in the past in similar circumstances).

You know this for a fact? Because according to everything I have read on the thread no one knows if the passenger is a student or not, and some in an attempt to prove their point are just assuming it is.

[Doug_Davis 0]

NWFlyer

Stuff...

If as you say the person in the tandem rig is in fact a student I would agree with you and everyone else.
If its not a student I wouldnt agree with you.

Lastly my point in saying skydiving was doing great in terms of safety, wasnt to say people should be less safe, it was simply to point out that over all the sport has done very well in terms of a safety record. Thats it. Just a "hey the sport seems to be doing well when we look at it over all" note, thats all. Dont read to much into it.

[Boogers 0]

rwieder

Bassetball

Those dogs have such short legs, I'm surprised they can even dribble!

[mjosparky 3]

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Yes, I should have known better than to try and have a rational conversation in this forum, where I assert that skydiving is safe in anyway or not the king end all to be all #1 most dangerous and cool adrenaline sport of all time.

Most of your conversation is not rational. Comparing skydiving to kayaking using your methods is like comparing apples to rocks. It seems to me that you are the only one making an issue of “cool”.

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Please return to discussing how you are two seconds away from death and any point in time while skydiving, but that this particular jump upped the death quotient to an unacceptable level.

Again your conversation is not rational....makes no sense.

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Oh and you and Dave should throw around use of the word "retarded" some more because insulting everyone who has a family member who is learning disabled definitely helps your case and makes you look even cooler.

Maybe you should find out what you are talking about before playing the poor me card. Try not to take a word out of context and apply your bias to it. Mental Retardation is a condition not considered part of a “learning disability”. While all people with mental retardation have a learning disability not all people with a learning disability are mentally retarded.

Since this site causes you so much aggravation maybe you should just avoid it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[SoCalJumper 0]

without going into detail about all of the many things I consider unsafe I'll say this, it looks ok to me because I am not the one doing.

[Doug_Davis 0]

mjosparky

Most of your conversation is not rational. Comparing skydiving to kayaking using your methods is like comparing apples to rocks. It seems to me that you are the only one making an issue of “cool”.

Please tell me Sparky how comparing two adventure sports by use of standard per 100k rate in fatalities is not "rational"?
Because Im fairly certain people compare fatality rates between numerous different activities or health risks or other such factors on a fairly common basis.

Havent you ever heard a skydiver say, "Im more likely to die driving on the way to the dropzone, than I am skydiving"?

So if we can compare mortality rates in traffic accidents with mortality in skydiving accidents, I am fairly certain we can accomplish the same thing between kayaking and skydiving.

Put I will be waiting to see how you claim this cant "rationally" happen.

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Mental Retardation is a condition not considered part of a “learning disability”.

Hi! Welcome to 2014! Where most of us have accepted the fact that using the term "retarded" is not socially acceptable. Also you might want to Google the term "mental retardation" which will show you that it is in fact an intellectual disability, or general learning disability.
Here is the wiki link for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability

[Joellercoaster 6]

We need some kind of badge or shorthand, whose meaning is:

"Assuming you are in the sport for a few years, and you might be, you are going to look back at your posts in this thread and cringe."

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[mjosparky 3]

Doug_Davis

***

Most of your conversation is not rational. Comparing skydiving to kayaking using your methods is like comparing apples to rocks. It seems to me that you are the only one making an issue of “cool”.

Please tell me Sparky how comparing two adventure sports by use of standard per 100k rate in fatalities is not "rational"?
Because Im fairly certain people compare fatality rates between numerous different activities or health risks or other such factors on a fairly common basis.

Havent you ever heard a skydiver say, "Im more likely to die driving on the way to the dropzone, than I am skydiving"?

So if we can compare mortality rates in traffic accidents with mortality in skydiving accidents, I am fairly certain we can accomplish the same thing between kayaking and skydiving.

Put I will be waiting to see how you claim this cant "rationally" happen.

Quote

Mental Retardation is a condition not considered part of a “learning disability”.

Hi! Welcome to 2014! Where most of us have accepted the fact that using the term "retarded" is not socially acceptable. Also you might want to Google the term "mental retardation" which will show you that it is in fact an intellectual disability, or general learning disability.
Here is the wiki link for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability

I rest my case.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chuckakers 370]

Doug_Davis

Where most of us have accepted the fact that using the term "retarded" is not socially acceptable.

Speak for yourself, Skippy. "Most" of us have accepted no such thing.

When you say "socially acceptable" what you actually mean is "politically correct", which is p*ssy for "don't say anything that could offend anyone".


re·tard·ed, adjective

1. less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age.


What the hell is so "socially unacceptable" about that?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[craigbey 0]

Yes. And the people in the OP's picture are retarded.

[chuckakers 370]

craigbey

Yes. And the people in the OP's picture are retarded.

Nah, just f'ing stupid. Don't insult retarded people like that.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[diablopilot 2]

While I appreciate what you're saying, explain that to every jury in every lawsuit involving negligence in skydiving.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SoCalJumper 0]

You can worry about that. To me it looks like a "STUNT"

Not to be outdone by the next "STUNT"

[Doug_Davis 0]

chuckakers

What the hell is so "socially unacceptable" about that?

You're using the word "retarded" as a put down or in a negative connotation. For those with children or family members who are mentally disabled its an insult.

[mjosparky 3]

Doug_Davis

***
What the hell is so "socially unacceptable" about that?

You're using the word "retarded" as a put down or in a negative connotation. For those with children or family members who are mentally disabled its an insult.

You are taking his use of the word out of context and getting upset when his choice of words does not follow your ideas of acceptable. At some point people are going to have to accept things for what they are.
If you have a family member who suffers from a developmental disability I can understand your frustration. But at the same time that family member is not offended by the use of the word.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[hangdiver 1]

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Pulled too high, did not have plane diving in the background, no CReW.

5/10

+1

I've been know to drive a junker car out of a perfectly good airplane...what would the NTSB say?

On the other hand where can I get two jumps for the price of one...did you see TM cut his passenger away?

My GOD...that can't be legal...

stop whining folks...that was a pre-planned stunt...jeez...

now back to my coffee...

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[chuckakers 370]

Doug_Davis

***
What the hell is so "socially unacceptable" about that?

You're using the word "retarded" as a put down or in a negative connotation. For those with children or family members who are mentally disabled its an insult.


Exactly what did I say that was a put down? I guess maybe you think using a direct quote from the dictionary within the context of this conversation is insulting?

It's called retardation. People who have it are called retarded. It is not an insult.

What next? Diabetic becomes "pancreatically challenged"? Butch up Sally.

By the way, you used the term "disabled" to describe the people you say I'm insulting. I think that's pretty insulting. Retarded people are not disabled at all. They are as capable of reaching their potential as you are of reaching yours. Maybe more.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX