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cocheese

Reasons not to buy an AAD

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That's cool. My question was directed at those that don't have an AAD. Is there a backup plan for getting knocked out that does not involve an AAD?
Granted that it is a rare occourance, but it does happen. It was said that an AAD sholud never be a backup plan, so what else is there?



If you are performing skydives that could get you knocked out, then I highly recommend using an AAD. What if you are a career hop-n-popper? Never see people in freefall, should AAD's be mandatory across the board ? Hell no. I'm glad they are there if I choose to use one.

I feel bad because I joined the bandwagon on the argument for or against mandatory aad's in a thread the was looking simply for reasons people have not to buy one. To add value to the thread, I didn't buy one for a long time because of price. When I finally bought one, it was off a friend for very little $$$. The risk/reward ratio for me personally is different, that's the great thing about democracy - CHOICE.
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

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If you are performing skydives that could get you knocked out, then I highly recommend using an AAD.

>>>> Me too.

should AAD's be mandatory across the board ?

>>>> Hell no.

I didn't buy one for a long time because of price.

>>>> Same here.

that's the great thing about democracy - CHOICE.



I agree with you. I choose to use one as a backup plan for getting knocked out. Everyone else can use one, or not, for whatever reason they want.
But what do I know?

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The more likely scenario is just losing track of altitude. We don't like to admit that we might do it, so many will say their AAD is for when they get knocked out. It doesn't matter if you have a fancy audible altimeter, many highly experienced people have lost track of the ground.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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The more likely scenario is just losing track of altitude. We don't like to admit that we might do it, so many will say their AAD is for when they get knocked out. It doesn't matter if you have a fancy audible altimeter, many highly experienced people have lost track of the ground...



...but never got the chance to tell anyone... :(

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Not to infer that anyone is implying this . . . but . . . if people are losing track of altitude on a regular basis, is the solution to give them an "out" to continue with such reckless behaviour and rely on a device, or would it be wiser to educate such people and possibly remove their privelage to jump? Again, most of this is ridiculously hypothetical but nonetheless, it doesn't hurt to discuss.
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

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Not to infer that anyone is implying this . . . but . . . if people are losing track of altitude on a regular basis, is the solution to give them an "out" to continue with such reckless behaviour and rely on a device, or would it be wiser to educate such people and possibly remove their privelage to jump? Again, most of this is ridiculously hypothetical but nonetheless, it doesn't hurt to discuss.



I think it better to not think of the "solution" as being one or the other. I also think that the tendency for jumpers to lose track of altitude is not so likely to be increased much by their possession of an "out". Such loss of altitude awareness happened long before modern AADs and audible altimeters. Even the best in the world have suffered from such lapses.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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So much for Democracy. [:/]



Arguing for the sake of arguing ? If I'm a DZO/S&TA and someone is constantly losing altitude awareness, they're not jumping anymore. Period. And that has NOTHING to do with democracy.
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

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I'm finding it ironic that we are beginning to take issue with the operation of AAD's and how long it takes a reserve to open. Has the skydiving community become device dependent?
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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I decided that the benefits of having an AAD outweigh the disadvantages of not having one. In order to limit the disadvantages of having one as much as I can, I had better understand the limits of what the device which I chose to buy can do for me.
That includes discussing and knowing/learning about(minimum) activation altitude, activation parameters, local circumstances such as a significant difference in LZ altitude and take-off altitude etc, etc, etc.

Happy now? :P

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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I'm finding it ironic that we are beginning to take issue with the operation of AAD's and how long it takes a reserve to open. Has the skydiving community become device dependent?




Isn't a parachute a device? ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I'm finding it ironic that we are beginning to take issue with the operation of AAD's and how long it takes a reserve to open. Has the skydiving community become device dependent?



Do you mean electronice devices, because I personally use certain mechanical and fluid powered devices to survive a skydive. ;)

Who wants to start a thread on reasons not to by a parachute? They can be expensive as well.:P
If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

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This parallels the no helmet law's. It's a mater of choice based on experance... I've been riding motorcycles for 40 years, Wearing a helmet is required by law in my state. I would like to be able to make that choice for myself for some reason. I would choose to wear one as I would choose to use an AAD. I'm very inexperienced in skydiving and believe it would be a good choice. I'm very experienced in riding motorcycles and still believe wearing a helmet is a good choice. (for me).. After reading this thread I believe the ones making the choice by experance in this field, should be given the right to do so. Myself and others just starting out and with virtually no experance to speak of, should use common sense and use all resources available to contuniue safely in this craft.. This sport is expensive and I've never considered people with multiple rigs trying to outfit them with AAD's, That would get very expensive. The ones I really admire have thousands of jumps and have gone through emergency procedures many times but I've never talked to anyone of these experience jumpers that have had an AAD fire because of circumstance beyond their control.. I've also been to to many funerals of brothers who have died in fatal accidents riding motorcycles wearing helmets.. I know it's apples and oranges in comparacion but I still can see a common factor.. It's a personal issue.. You make choices you will live with the rest of your life, whether it be a long and healthy one or short and sweet.. When it's your time it's your time.. if it endangers other skydivers then you have a responsibility to them. I don't see an AAD addressing this issue, I'm not seeing a connection. I'm new to this and maybe I need to be enlightened..
The end result is directly connected to the effort applied

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So much for Democracy. [:/]



Arguing for the sake of arguing ? If I'm a DZO/S&TA and someone is constantly losing altitude awareness, they're not jumping anymore. Period. And that has NOTHING to do with democracy.


Yes, I like to argue. I may have not done that if I'd known you were going to move the goalposts after my post... Mr. DZO or S&TA.
Being a DZO or S&TA does have nothing to do with democracy; that is a dictatorship. A DZO can mandate AAD's if they like, and an S&TA does have the responsibility to ground those that are unsafe. No argument there.
As a regular jumper, HOWEVER, I would not presume to tell somebody they should not jump because they don't have an AAD, or if they liked to pull low. Neither would compromise my safety, IMO, so I would not really care about either scenario.
But what do I know?

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>As a regular jumper, HOWEVER, I would not presume to tell somebody
>they should not jump because they don't have an AAD, or if they liked to
>pull low.

As an instructor I sometimes say just that. I agree that experienced jumpers should have the option, but before a certain point they simply do not understand the risks.

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>As a regular jumper, HOWEVER, I would not presume to tell somebody
>they should not jump because they don't have an AAD, or if they liked to
>pull low.
As an instructor I sometimes say just that. I agree that experienced jumpers should have the option, but before a certain point they simply do not understand the risks.


+1 roger that...
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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As an instructor I sometimes say just that. I agree that experienced jumpers should have the option, but before a certain point they simply do not understand the risks.
_________________________________________________

The question is, where is that point? I believe it is when they are deemed to be able to look after themselves -- ie, when they get an 'a' licence.... Unless some other reason such as a chronic inability to maintain altitude awareness, or a medical issue, raises itself.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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As an instructor I sometimes say just that. I agree that experienced jumpers should have the option, but before a certain point they simply do not understand the risks.
_________________________________________________

The question is, where is that point? I believe it is when they are deemed to be able to look after themselves -- ie, when they get an 'a' licence.... Unless some other reason such as a chronic inability to maintain altitude awareness, or a medical issue, raises itself.



Agreed, but a lot of new jumpers are not told of the differences before they reach their A licence. They are only told that the AAD is the only way to go and your a gonner without it.:|

Billvon is right thought, an AAD should be provided when the jumper is unaware of the risk and is not compitant enough to make to decision for his/her self. (i.e. students)
If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

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I thought that in the States aads WERE mandatory for all students, and had been for a while.

I KNOW that in Canada, aads have been mandatory for students since before I started jumping in 1979, and no one on this thread has ever suggested (afaik) that that should be changed.

In fact I believe that generally it is accepted almost world-wide that students should have aads. So I don't know why students would ever even enter into a discussion on aads. (this is directed more to Bill von than tjm)

I do agree that even when they may technically have a choice, as they become a-licenced jumpers and begin looking for that first rig -- most never consider not getting an aad. As long as they realize what it means once they have it and decide to hum it a bit, that is still fine with me.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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>The question is, where is that point?

That is indeed the question. A license is a good point. You could make an argument for later (B license? C?) but that should be on a DZ to DZ basis, not a national one.

>Unless some other reason such as a chronic inability to maintain altitude
>awareness, or a medical issue, raises itself.

I'd think that any condition that leads one to not be able to pull would be a reason to not skydive, rather than a reason to require an AAD.

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