RandomLemming 0 #1 April 13, 2010 Hi all, As a result of a recent clarification to UK rules that changes what has been accepted practice on most DZs I've been at, I have a question about requirements for jumping with other people. I'd really appreciate it if people could let me know the following: 1. Your country 2. Whether or not you can jump with other people once you have your A license 3. How many jumps are required on average for the A license 4. If no to question 2, what requirements do you have to meet before you can jump with other people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #2 April 13, 2010 Background Just thought I'd give some background to my question. In the UK, you are required to get an FS1 qualification before you can jump with other people. This is required no matter what license you have, so you can have a B license with 199 jumps and still not be qualified to jump with others. Our operations manual states N.B.(1) No more than one Category 8 jumper per group, all other jumpers in any group must be FS1 parachutists. This has (at every DZ I've jumped at) been interpreted to mean that if you don't have your FS1 sticker, you can still jump with other people, but there can only be 1 non-FS1 jumper in any group. For many people, this is how they got their FS1 stickers - learning with their mates, gaining the skills, then finally doing just one or two check-out dives (including the 4-point 4-way required to qualify) with an instructor. This is a lot cheaper than paying for instruction all the way through. For those of us who can afford it, we have the option of just flying to Spain and spending two intense days work then getting signed off as the world's worst FS flyer - but I'm still legal, and that's all that seems to matter. A clarification was issued 2.5 weeks ago that has made it clear that this was never the BPAs intention though. The clarification now requires that non-FS1 people only jump with other people if they are coaches - in other words, no fun jumps in a group until you have your FS1. Until you have your FS1, find a coach and work towards it. I'm not trying to debate the merits of the FS1 cert here, and I don't want to get into whether or not you really need to be able to turn 4 points on a 4-day before you are safely able to jump with 1 or 2 friends. My concern is primarily about retention of new jumpers in the UK (something the BPA seems to acknowledge is a problem) and understand how other countries manage this risk and get people up to this skill level - so thanks in advance :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 22 #3 April 13, 2010 Austria: we don't have staged (a,b,c,d) licences, just one, you'll get it after 28 jumps after that you are free to do whatever you want though some dz's prefer some sort of RW-training prior to do jumps with other. most of the time a logbook showing your proficiency will be enoughThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsreznor 0 #4 April 13, 2010 It would help if you listed all the requirements for the FS1 qualification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #5 April 13, 2010 QuoteIt would help if you listed all the requirements for the FS1 qualification. I'm deliberately not at this point :D What I'm trying to gauge right now is how many countries require further certifications than their A license and what those requirements are. As I said, I don't wish to get into the merits of the FS1 itself right now, but more the overall progression system and how we bring people into skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andreeb77 0 #6 April 13, 2010 In Germany the situation is pretty much the same compared to Austria (see above). Part of getting your license are five coach jumps (FS or FF instruction). If those get you anywhere near to being safely able to fly with others is a completely different question though ;-) Once you get your license you're good to go. Apart from certain activities (jump with camera, demos etc.) you can jump legally with other people from jump 29 onwards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,822 #7 April 13, 2010 Among the reasons many of us ex-pat Brits left the UK was absurd over-regulation of all aspects of life.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsreznor 0 #8 April 13, 2010 QuoteQuoteIt would help if you listed all the requirements for the FS1 qualification. I'm deliberately not at this point :D What I'm trying to gauge right now is how many countries require further certifications than their A license and what those requirements are. As I said, I don't wish to get into the merits of the FS1 itself right now, but more the overall progression system and how we bring people into skydiving. Now I had to look it up myself. With the exception of sidesliding and Levels 7 and 8, 3 point 3-way and 4 point 4-way, all the same skills are covered in the USPA student program. It's a digression, but what's the big deal on getting an FS1? Is it that hard to get those two extra jumps in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 1 #9 April 13, 2010 QuoteIt would help if you listed all the requirements for the FS1 qualification. Click on the link marked "FS Student manual." It's about 49 pages long. The chapter detailing the FS-1 check dive requirements starts on page 37. http://www.bpa.org.uk/training/manuals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fizzbuzz99 0 #10 April 13, 2010 Quote Quote It's a digression, but what's the big deal on getting an FS1? Is it that hard to get those two extra jumps in? No. For someone with a USPA A license it shouldnt be so difficult to get the FS1 and go jump with their buddies. The problem is that the BPA A license doesn't include any sort of RW coaching. So once the student has already paid out for their A license they then have to spend a heck of a lot more on coached jumps before they get FS1 and can even think about jumping with their friends, unless they happen to be tight with someone who's already a coach or similar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #11 April 13, 2010 Quote No. For someone with a USPA A license it shouldnt be so difficult to get the FS1 and go jump with their buddies. The problem is that the BPA A license doesn't include any sort of RW coaching. So once the student has already paid out for their A license they then have to spend a heck of a lot more on coached jumps before they get FS1 and can even think about jumping with their friends, unless they happen to be tight with someone who's already a coach or similar The main issues for achieving FS1 are cost and size of dropzone. Many people do not achieve the 4 point 4-way on their first try, and this means that they are looking at between 8 and 12 tickets plus coaching fees to complete this requirement. That's over and above any other FS coaching costs they've had up until this point. At some dropzones, it can also be hard to find coaches on the weekend, and smaller dropzones make it hard to get a 4-way on the manifest, what with tandems, etc. Trying to get that 4-way on the board twice in one day if you blow the first try can also be difficult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #12 April 13, 2010 I don't want anyone telling me I MUST jump with other people. If I just want to show up at the DZ and make solo jumps all day, that's my business, and they shouldn't tell me I'm required to do otherwise. (Tongue in cheek) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #13 April 13, 2010 Wow... Sometimes I forget how spoiled I am!!!! Getting a 4 way on manifest is almost never a problem at my DZ. I am a bit confused by your comment about lift tickets. For that required 4-way, is the student buying ALL the slots? That seems odd to me. But, as I said…I am spoiled.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #14 April 13, 2010 There's no requirement to jump with other people, just a requirement to have this qualification before you are allowed to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #15 April 13, 2010 QuoteWow... Sometimes I forget how spoiled I am!!!! Getting a 4 way on manifest is almost never a problem at my DZ. I am a bit confused by your comment about lift tickets. For that required 4-way, is the student buying ALL the slots? That seems odd to me. But, as I said…I am spoiled. In most cases, you'll be paying your slot plus your coach's slot plus a coaching fee for most of the training jumps. For the 3-way and the 4-way(s) you will normally have to pay for all slots plus a coaching fee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #16 April 13, 2010 The Netherlands: For your A license (for which you need 25 freefall jumps, a little exam, various practical skills) you need 5 coached jumps, for B you need 10 (making 10 total). In those 10 jumps you mainly have to demonstrate you can jump safely with others, ie be altitude aware, track decently, not dive through people, stuff like that. After you're deemed safe and learned a few basic skills you get cleared for jumping with others, this can take a few more or sometimes less than 10 jumps, the basic program is 10 jumps and you need 10 for you B anyway. So jumping with others here is not really dependant on your license but on whether you've finished your coaching program yet. You can start the coach program when you've completed 20 jumps and various stability excersises, so if you're quick you can start jumping with others (non-instructors and non-coaches) after 30 jumps. We prefer you jump with people with say 100 jumps or more at first but that's not a rule as such. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glitch 0 #17 April 13, 2010 Quote ...For the 3-way and the 4-way(s) you will normally have to pay for all slots plus a coaching fee. Wow... that's f'd up. Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #18 April 14, 2010 In Canada once you have a SOLO certificate (10 jump minimum) you can do one on one coach jumps. You must do a minimum of five to obtain your A license. With an A license (25 jump min) you may do one on one jumps with someone who has a B license and approval from the DZO/CI. You must complete a minimum of 10 2-ways between your A and B license, three of which must be with a coach. With a B license (50 jump min) you may jump with any number of people. The criteria to pass the coach jumps, among other things, is "achieve horizontal separation" for the A, and "demonstrate ability to track" for the B. Just how exacting the distinction is is left up to the coach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #19 April 14, 2010 Quote Quote ...For the 3-way and the 4-way(s) you will normally have to pay for all slots plus a coaching fee. Wow... that's f'd up. And also not actually true. I would dispute the "normally" part very loudly indeed. Especially since Lemming jumps at least partly at a dropzone where there are no coach fees and coach jump tickets are discounted! Back on-topic for just a second: Lemming, in answer to your original question, (I think) in South Africa and (definitely) in Australia you also need to do this stuff, it's just folded into your B license. [edit: Looking up the responses in this thread, it looks like 'A' meaning 'solo' isn't just a BPA thing after all, and in fact is in most of the responding countries. Fascinating.]-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #20 April 14, 2010 USA A license: You can jump with anybody, anytime. If some idiot wants to invite you on a 100-way, it's legal. 25 jumps minimum for an A license. The limitations come in prior to the A license where you are still deemed to be a student. Pre-license, you can jump with: 1. Instructors 2. Coaches 3. D-license holders (usually one approved by DZO) There must be one I/C/D for each student on the jump with a maximum of a 4-way. USPA 2008 SIM Section 2-1 E 6My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #21 April 14, 2010 Quote And also not actually true. I would dispute the "normally" part very loudly indeed. Especially since Lemming jumps at least partly at a dropzone where there are no coach fees and coach jump tickets are discounted! Lemming now jumps solely at said dropzone for this among so many other reasons. But when he was getting his FS1, he paid for every slot plus coaching fees and found that to be the case at 2 of the 4 DZs he's since jumped at on this island :D Plus I (no more third person, it wierds me out ;)) ended up going to spain for my FS1 because I couldn't get the coaching on the weekends. Again, that's because of the DZs I was jumping at at the time. Now that I'm in a position to drive 4 hours per day to go to a decent dropzone, things are different. But at all of the DZs I investigated in Spain, I would have had to pay for all slots plus coaching fees because the BPA FS1 is a good business for these DZs. Granted, I got an excellent level of coaching (my resulting 'ability' is my fault entirely :D) but I paid every slot and then some. QuoteBack on-topic for just a second: Lemming, in answer to your original question, (I think) in South Africa and (definitely) in Australia you also need to do this stuff, it's just folded into your B license. I know that in SA you can as an A license holder jump with others (at least, at JSC, 2-ways are legit on A) - I'm just still trying to find out if that's straight after A, or if there is some skills progression required to get to 2-way legal. That was my point to posting here, to get a feel for these things and learn how it is done elsewhere. So far, the main difference seems to be that most places incorporate some form of FS training into the early licenses instead of having it separate, and no-one has quite such strict requirements as the BPA (4 point 4-way being the example). That's stricter requirement is not necessarily a bad thing though, as I learned a heck of a lot more in the 3-way and 4-way work. The 4-way was different in almost every conceivable way than the 2-way and only the most basic of skills gained in the 2-way work was useful. Everything else was tougher for me and I learned more. Quote[edit: Looking up the responses in this thread, it looks like 'A' meaning 'solo' isn't just a BPA thing after all, and in fact is in most of the responding countries. Fascinating.] Fascinating indeed. From what I can see so far, the main thing is to either incorporate some form of FS training (e.g. FS1) into the A / B license progression or to provide clearer definitions of who can jump with non-FS1 licence holders as with the USPA (e.g. the rules listed in popsjumper's comment) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muz 1 #22 April 14, 2010 AUSTRALIA You get your A licence after AFF or SL. With your A lic. you can only do 1-1 coach jumps until you get your B, for which you have to complete a RW training table which involves around 8-10 jumps with a coach + 3x 3-or-bigger ways under supervision. With your B lic (or C-D-E-F) you can do 10-ways or smaller RW jumps. To get on bigger RW ways you need an Australian Star Crest, which you can get by participating in at least three eight-way Flatfly RW formations entering fifth or later, witnessed by judges or other ASC holders. For freefly jumps: you can do 3-ways with a B or higher licence. By completing a FF training table you can get on bigger FF ways. Edited to add: 50 jumps required for a B licence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muz 1 #23 April 14, 2010 ITALY You get your only licence after 50 jumps. After that you're on your own. Before the 50 mark, and after completion of AFF, you can do 1-1 coaching with an instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
muz 1 #22 April 14, 2010 AUSTRALIA You get your A licence after AFF or SL. With your A lic. you can only do 1-1 coach jumps until you get your B, for which you have to complete a RW training table which involves around 8-10 jumps with a coach + 3x 3-or-bigger ways under supervision. With your B lic (or C-D-E-F) you can do 10-ways or smaller RW jumps. To get on bigger RW ways you need an Australian Star Crest, which you can get by participating in at least three eight-way Flatfly RW formations entering fifth or later, witnessed by judges or other ASC holders. For freefly jumps: you can do 3-ways with a B or higher licence. By completing a FF training table you can get on bigger FF ways. Edited to add: 50 jumps required for a B licence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muz 1 #23 April 14, 2010 ITALY You get your only licence after 50 jumps. After that you're on your own. Before the 50 mark, and after completion of AFF, you can do 1-1 coaching with an instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites