BIGUN 1,234 #26 April 26, 2010 QuoteAs I understand it the online option would allow HQ to print off the ballots from the online vote and then use them so people don't have to fill them out and mail them in. QuoteMembers: USPA Needs Your Vote USPA is initiating a proxy effort to change its by-laws to allow the use of an online voting process for electing its board of directors. The online voting process would be in addition to the current and continuing use of paper ballots for the election. SOURCE: A News Update from the United States Parachute Association OK. Now, I am really confused.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 16 #27 April 26, 2010 What is there to be confused about? Elections would just include online voting as another option. It would continue to offer paper ballots for those that want to use them but it also offers online voting for those that want that. I have not heard that paper ballots were going to be eliminated, just offering online as another option.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #28 April 26, 2010 QuoteQuoteAs I understand it the online option would allow HQ to print off the ballots from the online vote and then use them so people don't have to fill them out and mail them in. QuoteMembers: USPA Needs Your Vote USPA is initiating a proxy effort to change its by-laws to allow the use of an online voting process for electing its board of directors. The online voting process would be in addition to the current and continuing use of paper ballots for the election. SOURCE: A News Update from the United States Parachute Association OK. Now, I am really confused. If you want USPA to pay up to $20,000 additional dollars on the election, send your proxy in with a yes vote. (It has been more than two months since the winter mtg and the minutes are still not on the USPA web site. But in the minutes there is a motion that authorizes the Executive Director to spend up to $20,000 (or $25,000 - I don't know the number right now) to establish online voting for the upcoming election once HQ receives a quorum number of proxies, about 3200. This would make the entire election cost around $30,000. compared to the current ~$10,000. If you want USPA to just do the paper ballots at its current cost of ~$10,000 and not worry about additional security issues with the online voting, do NOT send in a proxy at all. Do not send in a proxy with a no vote because that will be used to establish a quorum. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #29 April 26, 2010 QuoteDo not send in a proxy with a no vote because that will be used to establish a quorum. I disagree. I rather see an issue decided with true vote counts, yes and no, with a quorum - than for an issue to have tons of yes votes, unknown no votes, and no quorum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #30 April 27, 2010 Why don't you just ask Cary Q. how he wants to do it, since he's a member in good standing and his vote counts just as much as anybody else'sYou don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #31 April 29, 2010 Those interested in security information, please take a look at the attached diagram. Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonTheGeek 0 #32 April 29, 2010 How are the "Authorized/Eligible Voters" going to be authenticated? Who has access to the raw data? Is the source code available for examination? While I'm in favor in principle there are a lot of questions regarding the underlying infrastructure that I'd like to see answered first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #33 April 30, 2010 I would be happy to meet you one day. I am not saying I have technical answers. The authorized voters would be a confidential electronic list sent to the provider who would then attach passwords to each. If I understand your question about source code, I would have to say no it is not available. Take care, Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #34 May 6, 2010 Jeff W. made a suggestion I consider worth sharing. Click here to download a proxy http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/USPAVotingProxyInformation/tabid/521/Default.aspx Print it, sign it, then take a photo with your phone and email to the address on the proxy. You can do it all in about 2 minutes without leaving your chair. The only thing easier than that will be true online voting with no paper at all (unless you choose to use paper). Blue Skies, Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #35 May 11, 2010 Quote...Also, you seem stuck on parliamentary issues. We consulted with New York attorneys (where USPA is incorporated) and they advised us. Personally, I will take the advice of the attorneys over a parliamentarian. This sounds like a willingness to circumvent the rules. Those rules exist for a reason. Haven't we been down this road of ignoring parliamentary rules before? Did we not learn anything from that? Sometimes micromanagement is needed...especially when trust has been violated. Quote....and no one is trying to pull anything other than getting online voting for the members. ...IF you can get it done within the confines of the rules that exist.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #36 May 11, 2010 QuoteThis sounds like a willingness to circumvent the rules. Those rules exist for a reason. Haven't we been down this road of ignoring parliamentary rules before? Did we not learn anything from that? Andy, there is no need or desire to circumvent rules. That's why this is in the hands of the members. They will decide or prove that they just don't care what USPA does by not voting. If the board wanted to have online voting by circumventing rules, it would just happen and no proxy would be necessary. This is the simplest most straightforward proxy that can possibly be presented. In my opinion the worst case scenario is if there is no quorum, proving that those who say our members don't care, are indeed correct. If this happens, the results will be longlasting. It's easy to cast your vote by signing and faxing/emailing this proxy to allow USPA to have online voting. http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/USPAVotingProxyInformation/tabid/521/Default.aspx It will only take a minute of your time. I can't see what any board member has to personally gain by USPA starting online voting. Only the members will benefit. One thing that hasn't been said is that once we get the process approved, we can use it to poll the members on any particular issue at any time during the year it is active. This is an effort to get members more involved in a number of ways and I just don't see a downside to it. Blue Skies, Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #37 May 11, 2010 Quote In my opinion the worst case scenario is if there is no quorum, proving that those who say our members don't care, are indeed correct. If this happens, the results will be longlasting. Interesting point of view, but not necessarily as correct as you might like to think, or rather, have us think. Should one be opposed to accepting this change now, the most powerful thing to do is to not send the proxy. If that causes a lack of quorum, then nothing changes. Sending in a "no" vote that helps to establish a quorum allows the possibility for the "yes" votes to win. I'm not saying that's what I want to happen, but your statement that the "worst case scenario" proves apathy is not so clearly correct. And, while we're on it, what is so "long lasting" about not making this change now? Does failing to pass this now for some reason mean that we cannot try again another time? When you make such statements that seem true at face value, but are not actually true after a more detailed analysis, one might wonder why you would present the issue in the manner that you have. If you want internet voting, send the proxy with the "Yes" box checked. If you don't want internet voting, send no proxy. Those really are the options without any emotional embellishments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #38 May 12, 2010 Quote And, while we're on it, what is so "long lasting" about not making this change now? Does failing to pass this now for some reason mean that we cannot try again another time? Realistically speaking, the board is weary of trying to get a successful proxy, plus at present it costs several thousand dollars. I had a difficult time trying to get them to approve this one. If there is no quorum this time, it is my belief that there will not be another effort for years to come. If this proxy is approved and we get online voting, the system can be used for other purposes at almost no additional cost since we would get unlimited use for a year. I believe there is a lot riding on this and I am intentionally trying to make that point. Proxy link: http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/USPAVotingProxyInformation/tabid/521/Default.aspx Blue Skies, Ed Edited to add: Oh yes, the apathy issue. Anyone is free to have their own opinions. Mine is that if a quorum is not met, the reason will be member apathy. It's just like getting 2500 members out of more than 30,000 to vote in the last election. Withholding a proxy has the effect you mention, it is, nevertheless my belief that the numbers would be inconsequential. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #39 May 12, 2010 Quote Edited to add: Oh yes, the apathy issue. Anyone is free to have their own opinions. Mine is that if a quorum is not met, the reason will be member apathy. It's just like getting 2500 members out of more than 30,000 to vote in the last election. Withholding a proxy has the effect you mention, it is, nevertheless my belief that the numbers would be inconsequential. . You are, of course, free to have that opinion. And I thank you for admitting that the strongest form of a "no" vote is to withhold the proxy. All I want is for the voters to clearly understand the process. I want them to understand how sending in a "no" proxy might actually hurt the "no" position. When you portray this as the worst possible scenario, and push the apathy button, you are doing the very same thing that much of the US voting public has become totally sick of - you are putting emotional content where facts should be presented. So much of the campaigning these days has been on the emotions of the matters and not the facts. After presenting the facts, it is all well and good to present the opinions. If the clear presentation of the facts results in the issue being rejected, then maybe we weren't all so much in favor in the first place. Winning it without the facts is a hollow victory, as the losers will be able to say that the issue was not fairly represented, and they will have every right to resent it. Base the campaign on the facts and all will respect you. Base it on the emotions, and though some will agree, others will suspect your motives. There is a benefit to the concerned voters when the apathetic elect not to exercise their right to vote. It gives greater power to those who care. Regardless of the manner in which the voting is accomplished, I want those who vote to care about voting. Failing that, what we get is some sort of popularity contest. That is a disservice to all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #40 May 12, 2010 Quote Of course, we won't know until we do it, so I guess we should give it a go. Thanks for your passionate views. I wish more people cared. Link to proxy. http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/USPAVotingProxyInformation/tabid/521/Default.aspx Blue Skies, Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #41 May 12, 2010 I'm new to all this and a bit lost in some of the discussion. I could use some clarification. In general I think I am in favor of online voting. Other membership organizations I am in use it. I see a number of more experienced people are against it. I understand one concern is cost. There seem to be other concerns rooted in history that are only being expressed in veiled language. Things about ignoring procedure, not trusting the board, etc. I'd sure like for somebody to spell out those concerns so that I could make an informed decision with all the facts."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #42 May 12, 2010 QuoteI'm new to all this and a bit lost in some of the discussion. I could use some clarification. In general I think I am in favor of online voting. Other membership organizations I am in use it. I see a number of more experienced people are against it. I understand one concern is cost. There seem to be other concerns rooted in history that are only being expressed in veiled language. Things about ignoring procedure, not trusting the board, etc. I'd sure like for somebody to spell out those concerns so that I could make an informed decision with all the facts. I am still undecided about the need for online voting. The cost is certainly a concern for me. Right or wrong, there are plenty of people who are concerned that the dues are used to the best purpose, and spending it on a voting system may or may not be the best use of the money. At another level, I am concerned that the capability to vote online has been portrayed as possibly combating the apathy that is so often found in the membership of an organization like ours. The way I see it, this can only be true if the existing voting method presents a significant deterrent to having the members vote in the first place. I just do not see that this is the case. Voting is easy. You don't need to go to a polling place. You don't need to go to the dz. You just need to fill in a simple form and mail it. If voting gets easier than that, I worry that it is an invitation for poorly informed persons to vote simply because it is easy. Face it - the most basic apathy is the unwillingness to study the issues and form your opinions. Will online voting do anything to fight this apathy? It is not clear to me that it will. So the result could be that we get a larger voting population that still doesn't really know what they are voting about. They'll vote for their friends, or they'll vote against people they don't think they like, and all the while still not be taking the time to understand the issues before casting their votes. I don't see that as a step in the right direction. Now, it is surely true that we have popularity voting now. Of that there is no doubt. But if the tiny effort required to cast your vote as we do now helps to inhibit such things, then I don't see that we gain by making voting any easier. Just because the voting is easier does not imply that the voters will be any less apathetic. Being governed by a larger group of voters who do not care enough to do their part is likely worse than being governed by a smaller group of voters who care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #43 May 12, 2010 QuoteI'm new to all this and a bit lost in some of the discussion. I could use some clarification. In general I think I am in favor of online voting. Other membership organizations I am in use it. I see a number of more experienced people are against it. I understand one concern is cost. There seem to be other concerns rooted in history that are only being expressed in veiled language. Things about ignoring procedure, not trusting the board, etc. I'd sure like for somebody to spell out those concerns so that I could make an informed decision with all the facts. 1 Cost. Current cost of the election using paper ballots will remain the same ~$9000.00 In addition to that, the online voting may cost up to $20,000. One of the reasons the online cost is so high is because the entire membership will be added to the online voting roster. It would be much cheaper to use an opt-in system and only get charged for the members that use the online voting. 2 Security a. The online system under consideration was hacked during USPA's test of it. I was able to login as other members and vote for them. b. The distribution of username and password is not secure. One of these items will be something in the USPA database. That is not secure because every drop zone that you've filled a waiver out at has this information. The other item would be generated and printed on the outside of your magazine. 3 No ability to perform recounts 4 No plan disseminated about how to reconcile duplicate votes from each method. 5 Ill-proposed proxy and misleading information. Text accompanying the proxy states Quote If supported by affirmative proxies, the board would be authorized to change the by-laws to allow the use of online balloting in the conduct of board elections. The quoted statement is false and illustrates a fundamental lack of understanding by the board. First off a proxy for a member at the General Membership Meeting (GMM) means that the proxy holder may cast a vote for the absent member at the GMM. Secondly, the by-laws state "A two-thirds majority of the BOD present may approve any amendment to these By-Laws except sections referring to size, composition, and election of the USPA Board of Directors." The statement USPA put out indicates that USPA BOD thinks that the proxy will suspend the rule from the By-laws and give them the authority to change the bylaws. This is completely incorrect. The by-laws cannot be suspended, even by unanimous vote, unless the particular bylaw provides for its own suspension. The specific bylaw change that the BOD desires has not been presented, even when asked about it. Any bylaw change relating to the size, composition and election of the USPA BOD must be done at the GMM, not at the BOD mtg. Most of the BOD simply do not understand this. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 16 #44 May 12, 2010 I thought that the security issue was addressed that you had access to user names and passwords that would not have been used for the production database. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #45 May 12, 2010 Quote I thought that the security issue was addressed that you had access to user names and passwords that would not have been used for the production database. Phree, You are absolutely correct. Below is a copy/paste of the actual email that shows what was used for passwords and usernames during the test. You can see it was our actual USPA number for a username and our D number for a password. Of course anyone could hack it. Jan was involved and she has to know she is distorting what took place. Right now this is about online voting and I want to see us stay focused. --------------------------------------------------- QUOTE from email before the online voting test: As a place to start, I propose the following: - To conduct a vote for a fictitious roster of candidates in a mock USPA election, with the possibilities of write-ins, just like one of our real elections. (We would be voting for one region only in this mock election.) - That this election take place this week, Wednesday - Friday - That all board members and staff members be invited to vote - That the voters use their real USPA membership numbers for their User IDs - That the voters use their real USPA D-license number: with the letter, but not the dash before the number. (Staff members without a D-License would be provided fictitious D-license numbers by HQ) (For an actual election, we would use computer-generated passwords) End Quote -------------------------------------------------- Blue Skies, Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #46 May 13, 2010 Thank you to the people who responded and outlined their concerns so clearly. I now have more information to make up my mind."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #47 May 15, 2010 QuoteI'm new to all this and a bit lost in some of the discussion. I could use some clarification. In general I think I am in favor of online voting. Other membership organizations I am in use it. I see a number of more experienced people are against it. I understand one concern is cost. There seem to be other concerns rooted in history that are only being expressed in veiled language. Things about ignoring procedure, not trusting the board, etc. I'd sure like for somebody to spell out those concerns so that I could make an informed decision with all the facts. Hey " S Man", don't leave yet, there's more !! You have three S&TAs at Orange, Lambert, Reynolds and Steve. Get their advice. I want to stay on subject so I won't go into why some of these things are being said. I can tell you that board distrust and ignoring procedure are red herrings. Security is a non-issue. This online system has great security and our present system is about as bad as it gets. I do, however, thank those raising these subjects for keeping this thread interesting enough so people will take the time to read it. Cost: The cost of the basic system is about $15,000 for election years only. More has been budgeted just in case. It amounts to about 35 cents per member per year. If we someday go to 3 year board terms, that reduces our yearly costs further. Cost is a fair target for those who would criticize. The board obviously believes it is worth the cost and they probably know more about that subject than most members. Here is something important about cost. Do you realize at present, USPA staff counts the votes? Think about it. I trust the present staff, they are great, but it hasn't always been that way. Staff should NOT be counting the votes for the board. It gives an appearance of possible wrong doing. If we don't get online voting, the board should move to get a third party to count our election ballots. With online voting, as a side benefit, that concern will be resolved. Another fair target is whether or not online voting will accomplish the desired goal of getting more people involved. Nobody knows for sure and the only way to find out is to try it. I believe one person said there was no provision for recounts. Wrong. That same person made another accusation about reconciling duplicate votes between paper and online. Also wrong and it is addressed in post 19 of this thread. The board (all volunteer) is elected to make good things happen. We will do the lion's share of the work, but we can't do it without your help !! Just take 2 minutes, print out the form at the link below, sign it, then fax or email as instructed on the form. USPA can be a better organization, but members must participate for it to happen. Blue Skies, Ed Click here to download a proxy, then sign and fax or email as instructed on the form. http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Proxy%20Download.pdf . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites