Round reserve?

[Vallerina 2]

I've heard a couple of advantages of jumping a round reserve, and I was just curious if anyone out there currently does.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

All the student kits at my dz have round reserves, becuase people here think it's a lot safer, especially in a 2 out situation.

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Say no to subliminal messages

[narcimund 0]

My first rig had a round reserve and in my one cutaway on that rig I discovered firsthand the problem. If you have to use it, you're jumping something you're not current on. Now I think it's a terrible choice for anyone unless their main is also a round.

Anyone who's been jumping for less than 20 years has probably never jumped a round at all and the first time they pull their reserve they're going to be like a first jumper without training. They're coming down under a parachute type they've never seen.

Now, in an emergency situation I'd rather have a round than nothing, no matter how untrained I was, but that's not the choice skydivers are faced with.

Pilots fly with emergency rigs which are most often rounds, but that's the best option available. Besides, their likelihood of ever using them is insignificant while ours is (relatively) high. We should have ram air reserves for ourselves and definitely for the students.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[councilman24 36]

As a former Golden Knights rigger put it ... "When you open a round reserve, your still in an emergency situation." This was when he was making their Style and Accuracy team change to squares and therefore piggy back rigs.

Of couse the only reserves I've ever landed were round. And my first rig was a ParaCommander. Maybe better in two out, but I don't know of any sport round reserve with a free bag. There is a pilot rig with a free sleeve, and another that if the load is high enough the bag will strip free. I firmly believe that the malfunction rate for ram air reseves is lower than sport round reserves. Unless they have anti inversion netting. And again, I don't know of any civilian rig with anti-inversion netting.

Also, I'm not sure how many modern rigs are TSO'd for a round. Hmmm haven't thought about it because I haven't care.

BTW I pack as many round pilot rigs as square skydiver rigs. The only skydiver rigs with round reserves in my area are sitting in closets and haven't been jumped in 8 or 10 years.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skybytch 259]

I carried a round for the first 7 years I was jumping (first two rigs). Lucky for me I never had to use either one. Finally got a square in 1997, along with my first brand new container.

The only advantage I've ever heard of is if you're doing CRW; a round reserve would allow you to do a canopy transfer.

There are a lot of drawbacks to jumping with one, especially today when the majority of jumpers have squares. The biggee is that nowadays no one "spots for the round"; get out last on a long Otter jump run at some dz's and a round reserve ride could put you in some shitty landing areas. A round also limits the wind speed you can jump in (well, it does if you're smart anyway...); when I had one at the dz I was at the limit was the same as for students.

And then there's the fact that few people who started jumping in the past ten years or so have ever jumped a round. Last thing I want to think about when I have a mal is the fact that I'd be hanging under a canopy type I've never been under before.

[wmw999 2,121]

My backup rig has a round reserve. But since I've been jumping longer than those 20 years, I've seen it, too...
By and large I'd have to say a square satisfies more needs, especially the currency one. But a round is steerable, and can get you into a safe landing. The biggest thing to remember is that you won't have nearly as wide a choice of landing spots.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"The only advantage I've ever heard of is if you're doing CRW; a round reserve would allow you to do a canopy transfer. "

I'll add, if you get whacked senseless (which is the REAL reason we all have a cypres right?), and your cypres fires, you probably have a better chance of surviving the landing under a round.

"a round reserve ride could put you in some shitty landing areas"
Almost certainly, you will be low and out, with little or no chance of steering effectively, especially if you've never jumped a round.
Which leads us nicely to....

"few people who started jumping in the past ten years or so have ever jumped a round"
I always knew I was special....

"Last thing I want to think about when I have a mal is the fact that I'd be hanging under a canopy type I've never been under before."

Like an F111 7 cell?, okay its not a real biggie, but they do behave differently. And worth thinking about if you've never jumped such a skytruck.....

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[skybytch 259]

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Like an F111 7 cell?, okay its not a real biggie, but they do behave differently

Not a worry for me; my first 400 jumps or so were on F111 7 cells.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Not a worry for me; my first 400 jumps or so were on F111 7 cells."

After doing a some of my progression on rounds, I moved on to Furys (an F111 7 cell for all those zp yuppy puppies), the only reserve that is likely to scare me would be a teensy tiny one, because I'm not so teensy tiny

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I have owned three rigs with round reserves, but then again I have been jumping nearly 22 years. One of my four reserve rides was under a perfectly functioning Phantom 22 over Raeford, NC after I mis-rigged my spare main into my extra rig one day. It opened smartly, then landed me softly in the biggest briar patch in Hoke County. I tried as hard as I could to get to smoother ground, but counted myself lucky to at least land on the airport property. Rounds are perfectly safe, they just require more attention to spotting.

Chuck

[gale 0]

All our student rigs contain round reserves. I know a couple of jumpers who, when there were students, had to land one, and they didn't seem to have any problems. I, however, am really glad I didn't have to. My boyfriend who weights 250+ (without a rig) really doesn't want to have to land one either. OW.

I think people are pretty concious of them and try to spot for them - I know I am.

Of course, the student rigs also all have FXCs. All in all, not the ideal rigs once you have more then a few jumps.

Gale

I'm drowning...so come inside
Welcome to my...dirty mind

[winsor 186]

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I've heard a couple of advantages of jumping a round reserve, and I was just curious if anyone out there currently does.

Most of my reserves are ramair, but I have three Wonderhogs with conicals and a few bellywarts around. All my pilot's emergency rigs are rounds (C-9s).

I have a bunch of round jumps, and the one on which I broke my foot was my fault. I tried to land it like a square, and put it into a sink instead of a flare. 100% operator error.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[relyon 0]

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The only advantage I've ever heard of is if you're doing CRW; a round reserve would allow you to do a canopy transfer.

Where did you hear that? When a main is chopped during CReW, the jumper is usually trying to get away from it. Canopy transfer is rarely a consideration.

CReW spots tend to be 1-3 miles from the DZ over whatever happens to be below. Landing out is always a possibility and because of that ram air reserves are the only way to go.

Bob

[skybytch 259]

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Where did you hear that?

Ummm... Poynter's Skydiving Handbook I believe. Oh, and the guys I did CRW with back in the early '90's, who all carried round reserves for that very reason.

[DZBone 0]

My current reserve is a 24' Phantom. I've had to use it a couple of times, and other than a really rough terminal opening, it worked fine. I can't believe anyone would jump one who hadn't flown a round before, tho. Like suddenly having to drive a stick shift when you only know automatic. Not something you want to do in an emergency. Plus, a "real" PLF is something you have to do a few times before it's second nature.

But my next rig will have a square reserve. I prefer to have the additional outs available, plus I can't jump at the closest DZ. Apparently round reserves are illegal in Rhode Island.

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If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound?

[Liemberg 0]

***Anyone who's been jumping for less than 20 years has probably never jumped a round at all and the first time they pull their reserve they're going to be like a first jumper without training.
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Uhmmm.... well, there you have it. I use round reserves in all the static-line student rigs, but I train people to do PLF's the way I was trained to do them. Usually, they walk away unhurt. I think it is much safer when there is a two canopies out situation (no downplane possible) and somehow I find that more likely to happen with beginners. I got ramairs in my own rig and (of course) the tandem rigs. Wouldn't have a problem though jumping my student rigs (easy for me to say, + 90 round jumps... A concussion ages ago had something to do with jumping a TU7 in 20 knots of wind... OMG, I'm as old as Winsor... )

Another observation from a trained geographer:

Throw somebody 'blindfolded' out of an airplane through the clouds over Holland. What is the most likely landing spot? We have a winner with 'pasture' (92% probability in the Netherlands & remember we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[JohanW 0]

'North Sea' ?

Johan.
I am. I think.

[relyon 0]

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Ummm... Poynter's Skydiving Handbook I believe. Oh, and the guys I did CRW with back in the early '90's, who all carried round reserves for that very reason.

Don't believe it just because it's in Dan's book. There is nothing currently in print about CRW that is even remotely up-to-date and it has changed considerably since the early '90s. What are those same people jumping for a reserve now?

Bob

[steve1 5]

There is also a difference in round reserves. At least there was back in the olden days. My first reserve ride was under a 24 ft. round reserve. I can't recall the exact modification it had but it was somewhat steerable and I even got a standup on it. My second reserve ride was also under a friends 24 ft. round which was modified differently. It oscillated terribly all the way down, and was nearly uncontrollable in my efforts to steer it. I just missed some pine trees and then slammed into a rock pile in the middle of a oscillation. I sprained both ankles and needed help hobbling up and off the hillside. So much for jumping in the old days. I always heard a 26 ft. conical was a better reserve than most 24ft. rounds. I didn't jump in the 80's or 90's so I don't know much about the gear that was around then. Steve1

[wmw999 2,121]

Ayup, big differences in mods. The 4-line mod made a reserve "steerable" but insignificantly so. Just about enough to face into the wind to land. I had one...

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Liemberg 0]

***'North Sea' ?

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Yes, a keen observation Johan, the North Sea is some 2000 meter to the North of our place. Mind you, I said over Holland. Besides, you violate some regulations when you actually jump (blindfolded or) through clouds so we don't do that...

We also stop jumping a bit earlier when on hot summer days a huge black wall of clouds appears from the south of the island and the radar images *) tell us that they contain a thunderstorm. And students don't get to jump with strong southerly uppers since 2 years ago some bloke under a square (!) proved on his first jump that with the right conditions you still couldn't reach Norway but you could give it your best shot.

Had he been under a round he might have busted his ankle but he would have remained dry. Then again we would have missed a whole show with a life-boat and a rescue helicopter. He was under the misconception that parachutes always should move forward in relation to the ground. When he aimed at the land he moved backwards. When he aimed at the sea 'the parachute worked just fine, thank you...'
Since he didn't want to end up in the sea, he used his brakes as much as possible - thereby reducing his downward speed and keeping him longer exposed to the strong uppers...


*) I get 'rainradar' in near-real-time (5 minutes delay) on my computerscreen. Don't you love the internet?

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[faulknerwn 36]

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Don't believe it just because it's in Dan's book. There is nothing currently in print about CRW that is even remotely up-to-date and it has changed considerably since the early '90s. What are those same people jumping for a reserve now?

Bob

I've heard 2 reasons for round reserves for doing CRW:

1. 2 people landing under one canopy are more likely to survive if its a round.
2. If you have a mess, a round can't downplane with other mains and you have a better chance of survival.

That being said, I'll still take my square. We land off too much and use our reserves too often. I'll take my chances.

W

[steve1 5]

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Ayup, big differences in mods. The 4-line mod made a reserve "steerable" but insignificantly so. Just about enough to face into the wind to land. I had one...
....................................................
Wendy,
I remember some people had four line releases on their reserves back in the 70's. Some how they could release the four back lines, once under canopy. I never looked at one up close to figure out how it worked, but I'll bet yours was similiar. The 24 ft. reserve I jumped had some holes in the back. I can't recall if it was a T or T-U or just some holes for a modification. I think the steering lines were marked so you knew which ones to pull when steering. My memory is shot. Steve1

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[Tonto 1]

I started on rounds 18 years back, and so didn't mind a round reserve for a few years. I've had only 1 of my 16 chops with a round reserve - borrowed gear on a crew dive (It was a wing loading thing)

The club I jump at kept round reserves for many years, but we moved to square reserves on club gear about 10 years back to simplify the 1st jump course. Training on 2 different types of canopy, 2 different landings etc was just too much for most students to absorb.

"A round will get you down, but a square will get you there" Dunno who wrote that one, but its true.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Tonto 1]

And what would those advantages be? If they're so great, why are we not jumping round mains?

t

It's the year of the Pig.