Recommended Posts
rehmwa 2
I'd think the presence of a waiver can result in fewer cases being initiated. Once a case is initiated, I'm not sure how much weight a waiver holds. Still, likely better than no waiver at all.
So at least a couple good reasons to have these annoying things.
But the freaking long ones that have all the rewriting and initialling of 50 areas are really stupid and need to be simplified to just on the ticket or just a simple waiver with one place to sign only.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
So at least a couple good reasons to have these annoying things.
But the freaking long ones that have all the rewriting and initialling of 50 areas are really stupid and need to be simplified to just on the ticket or just a simple waiver with one place to sign only.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Andy9o8 0
Quotewould the lack of a waiver actually mean a win for the plaintiff, or just a longer path before dismissal?
The lack of a waiver would guarantee neither victory nor defeat for the plaintiff -- just as in any other personal injury case, the plaintiff would still have to establish a basic case in order to get to trial, and then have to prove his case (i.e., both liability and damages) to a jury. Then it's up to the jury to decide, just as in any other case. But whereas the presence of a signed waiver greatly increases the DZ's chances of getting most, if not all, of the plaintiff's claims dismissed before the case ever gets to trial, the lack of a waiver makes it far, far easier for the plaintiff's case to survive to the jury; and once the jury has the case, all bets are off.
QuoteOr why some DZs are happy to go without for 500 clams.
I still think that's a fool's errand; see my earlier posts.
QuoteThe waiver also says that the signee (or estate) will pay the legal costs for the DZ of any legal actions they made bring. Hence why I asked about that aspect.
In the US, fee-shifting to a losing plaintiff is generally not permitted (unless it's in a clause in a commercial contract where the both parties genuinely have the ability to negotiate terms). But activity participants at a DZ, ski resort, etc. obviously don't have the ability to negotiate the terms of the waiver; they either sign it or go home. In "recreational activity/waiver" cases, most judges usually nullify the legal fee-shifting clause of the waiver, and then rule that the rest of the waiver is valid. That's exactly what happened in the DARE v. FREEFALL ADVENTURES case I cited above - the judge ruled that Crosskeys was protected by the waiver, but the provision in the waiver in which Crosskeys allowed itself the right to reclaim its legal expenses from the losing plaintiff was held to be void.
Andy9o8 0
QuoteBut the freaking long ones that have all the rewriting and initialling of 50 areas are really stupid and need to be simplified to just on the ticket or just a simple waiver with one place to sign only.
In a perfect world you'd be right. But the cumulative result of comparing cases DZs have won with cases they've lost have shown that, most of the time, the longer waivers provide the DZ with more "leak-proof" protection than the short ones.
The idea behind it is "informed consent". One might analogize it to the informed consent forms patients sign before they have surgery, acknowledging they understand all the potential medical risks, even remote ones: “...I might die, I might be paralyzed, I might become brain-damaged from the anesthesia, my dick might fall off, etc.” Those extra-long waiver forms (often together with the Bill Booth video) are essentially informed consent forms - because, just like with the surgery patient, the jumper is compelled to expressly acknowledge that he understands all the various sorts of shit that might happen as being part of the inherent risks of skydiving/surgery/whatever.
rehmwa 2
QuoteIn a perfect world you'd be right.
Actually, I like to think of it where - If I was right all the time it would be a perfect world.
Either way, let's get to it.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
jsaxton 0
QuoteQuotebecause SKYDIVERS don't sueQuoteHmm, why would a DZ NOT have a waiver?
Which brings up a question ... do tandems (and other students, for that matter) sign waivers at Lodi?
Tandems do, don't know about AFF
tdog 0
Holy old thread, batman!!!!
QuoteQuoteI beleive you also had the choice to pay $500, IIRC, or sign the waiver at CSS in North Carolina.
The waiver I signed here in Oklahoma had something like this on it. As far as I can tell, you still had to
fill out the waiver (i.e., put your name on it and initial that you had read each paragraph). At the bottom,
in so many words, it says "if you don't want to release anyone from liability, you can pay $500 per jump
and keep your right to sue." Even if you picked this, you still had to sign to indicate that it was your
choice.
I don't think this was on the one I signed in Texas, but I don't recall for sure.
Eule
I have the "$500 option" on my waiver. A year or so ago I had an IAD student decide to pay the $500. That scares me on multiple levels, but he said he simply did not want to leave his wife without the ability to sue if something were to go wrong. My thought was, so you kill yourself and your wife sues me leaving my wife with nothing. Anyway, I called my attorney, he said that 10 years ago when he'd written the waiver he had actually looked and found insurance that could be purchased for $500. He advised that I talk with the student and insist that there was no way we could do the jump that day, that come Monday I'd need to do some research and find out the actual cost of this insurance, and that it would no doubt be in excess of $500. At that point, he decided to initial the (not purchase) option.
The thinking behind that option is a legal maneuver. So, the student who gets hurt of killed does not have the option of saying in court that "The only way they'd let me participate is if I waived them. Therefore I was coerced, or "forced" to sign the waiver."
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.
AC DZ
AC DZ
Andy9o8 0
QuoteI have the "$500 option" on my waiver. A year or so ago I had an IAD student decide to pay the $500. That scares me on multiple levels, but he said he simply did not want to leave his wife without the ability to sue if something were to go wrong. My thought was, so you kill yourself and your wife sues me leaving my wife with nothing. Anyway, I called my attorney, he said that 10 years ago when he'd written the waiver he had actually looked and found insurance that could be purchased for $500. He advised that I talk with the student and insist that there was no way we could do the jump that day, that come Monday I'd need to do some research and find out the actual cost of this insurance, and that it would no doubt be in excess of $500. At that point, he decided to initial the (not purchase) option.
Look, I don't mean to second-guess your attorney.
Well, I guess I do. I've represented DZs and other skydiving-industry businesses, too. I've drafted and revised plenty of them thar waiver thingies. If you'd been my client, I would never have allowed that. If a skydiving industry client of mine had a waiver with that kind of clause, it would have been because he chose to ignore my advice. QuoteThe thinking behind that option is a legal maneuver. So, the student who gets hurt of killed does not have the option of saying in court that "The only way they'd let me participate is if I waived them. Therefore I was coerced, or "forced" to sign the waiver."
Assuming that's a lawyer's thought process, I disagree with it. Recreational activities, especially dangerous ones like skydiving, are hardly what the law regards as "basic and essential activities". For something like skydiving, especially if you're a recreational jumper and not jumping as your primary means of earning a living, you can't be "forced" to sign a waiver to engage in a purely voluntary activity. Nobody forces a prospective customer to skydive* - the customer can always walk away.
(*Not including the student who balks on the step and gets a little "help" making his decision to exit.
)
Skwrl 56
As another lawyer who has drafted waivers for skydiving events and schools, I'm just going to say "+1" to everything Andy said. Not using a waiver is just assuming unnecessary additional business risk.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
The waiver also says that the signee (or estate) will pay the legal costs for the DZ of any legal actions they made bring. Hence why I asked about that aspect.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites