Do military static line jumps count toward jump numbers or just mil. freefall jumps?

[cctpud01 0]

I've been unable to find something in the SIM manual that spells out if static line and military freefall jumps count toward jump numbers or is it just military freefall ones that do. All it says in the SIM is military jumps count(vague), when asking various people at various DZ's I get the it depends on what the jumps are for (license to be achieved) and have the criteria for that license been met answer or some just say mil. static line doesn't count period. The British Parachute Association spells it out in their operations manual and says Military Static Line jumps do not count, but freefall ones do. Is this the case for the USPA or not? It doesn't make sense they wouldn't count since they used to skydive with rounds including hop and pops and I'm sure those counted.

[diablopilot 2]

You left an aircraft in flight intending to land with a parachute didn't you?

I think you'll find that it comes down to opinion mostly. You're is probably the most valid one.

I'll add one caveat: They count as jump numbers of course, how ever I wouldn't count them towards the requirements of a USPA license. (Actually I'd probably be ok with them to satisfy the numbers for a 'C' or 'D')

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[theonlyski 3]

That has been back and forth for a while, some say that they were in violation of the BSRs because you exit at 800-1250' which is well below the minimum pull alt for any license, others say you left an aircraft in flight, so it counts.

One could argue that there was an engine malfunction on a caravan at 1300' and you jump, it counts right?

Remember, the air force maintains those planes, there's proabably good reason to jump every time!

I add them when someone asks how many jumps I have, but I log them seperate, so my skydives and my static lines are kept track of independantly of each other.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[RIGGER160 0]

Robert I dont know how you keep track of all your static line jumps, there is just so many...

[theonlyski 3]

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Robert I dont know how you keep track of all your static line jumps, there is just so many...

Same way you keep track of all the jumps you were the jumpmaster for.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[RIGGER160 0]

Dude I have pulled JM duties more times than you have even jumped...

[jdfreefly 1]

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Dude I have pulled JM duties more times than you have even jumped...

Clearly there is more going on in this discussion than meets the eye, but right now, you just sound like an ass to the casual observer.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Gary73 8]

With USPA, all parachute jumps count toward license requirements.

Used to be only freefalls counted, but they changed that some years ago.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[nickfrey 0]

ALL parachute jumps? Were does that leave base? Base from a heli?

[matthewcline 0]

BASE from a Heli is not BASE or is would be BASHE, or BASEH, or HASEB or...

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[BIGUN 1,052]

Quote

Section 8-2: Achievement Awards

B. Cumulative jumps and freefall time

1. Expert Wings are awarded for freefall skydives in 1,000-jump increments.

2. Freefall Badges are awarded for freefall time in 12-hour increments.

C. General requirements

1. To be eligible for any of these awards a person must:

a. have completed the required number of freefall skydives or accumulated the required amount of freefall time

b. have made each jump being presented as qualification in compliance with the USPA BSRs

c. be a current USPA member at the time of application for the award

d. be the holder of a current USPA D license or its accepted foreign equivalent

e. have no record of a BSR violation on file with USPA

f. have met the requirements of the previous award

In short, you can log them if you wish, however they do not apply to awards or certifications.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

Quote

Section 8-2: Achievement Awards

B. Cumulative jumps and freefall time

1. Expert Wings are awarded for freefall skydives in 1,000-jump increments.

2. Freefall Badges are awarded for freefall time in 12-hour increments.

C. General requirements

1. To be eligible for any of these awards a person must:

a. have completed the required number of freefall skydives or accumulated the required amount of freefall time

b. have made each jump being presented as qualification in compliance with the USPA BSRs

c. be a current USPA member at the time of application for the award

d. be the holder of a current USPA D license or its accepted foreign equivalent

e. have no record of a BSR violation on file with USPA

f. have met the requirements of the previous award

In short, you can log them if you wish, however they do not apply to awards or certifications.

Not sure why you quoted the awards portion of the SIM, but heres a couple other ones:

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Skydive 1: The descent of a person to the surface from an aircraft in flight when he or she uses or intends to use a parachute during all or part of that descent.

2: To jump from an aircraft with a parachute.

&

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3.B.4. License qualifications made during military training jumps that meet the BSRs may be properly recorded on the application for that USPA license and verified by the appropriate USPA official.

BSRs seem to be the kicker, seeing as the exit is too low.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[mark 102]

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I've been unable to find something in the SIM manual that spells out if static line and military freefall jumps count toward jump numbers or is it just military freefall ones that do. All it says in the SIM is military jumps count(vague), when asking various people at various DZ's I get the it depends on what the jumps are for (license to be achieved) and have the criteria for that license been met answer or some just say mil. static line doesn't count period. The British Parachute Association spells it out in their operations manual and says Military Static Line jumps do not count, but freefall ones do. Is this the case for the USPA or not? It doesn't make sense they wouldn't count since they used to skydive with rounds including hop and pops and I'm sure those counted.

Your military static line jumps count towards the numbers you need for licenses, ratings and awards. See http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Min_BOD_2005_01.pdf, page 27.

Mark

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

Quote

I've been unable to find something in the SIM manual that spells out if static line and military freefall jumps count toward jump numbers or is it just military freefall ones that do. All it says in the SIM is military jumps count(vague), when asking various people at various DZ's I get the it depends on what the jumps are for (license to be achieved) and have the criteria for that license been met answer or some just say mil. static line doesn't count period. The British Parachute Association spells it out in their operations manual and says Military Static Line jumps do not count, but freefall ones do. Is this the case for the USPA or not? It doesn't make sense they wouldn't count since they used to skydive with rounds including hop and pops and I'm sure those counted.

Your military static line jumps count towards the numbers you need for licenses, ratings and awards. See http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Min_BOD_2005_01.pdf, page 27.

Mark

Well, sumbitch... thanks man!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[pchapman 261]

The part of the board meeting doc that Mark pointed out is this:

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Military jumps conducted on military orders. Should they count for USPA awards and
licenses?
A question was posed to S&T as to whether military jumps conducted on military orders should
they count for USPA awards and licenses? At issue is the use of round parachutes and exit and
opening altitudes at and below 1200 feet AGL. The BSR’s state that jumps made under military
orders do not need to be made in accordance to the BSR’s. Therefore the Committee believes
that it is clear in our BSRs that those jumps are being conducted in accordance with the BSRs
and should apply towards the total jumps needed for B, C and D licenses as well as awards.

So how does that mesh with the rather different 3.B.4 that was quoted?

It seems as if the SIM was not updated properly, if that was from a recent SIM. I didn't check the 2010 SIM myself, but looked at the 2008 one, and it still mentions having to follow the BSRs -- and nothing obvious about how military jumps under military authority are counted as equal to following BSRs.

Has someone told the USPA of this discrepancy, if this is correct?


Of course then we get into the issue that plenty of skydivers will have jumps that don't follow the BSRs; and remember that the BSRs include something about having to follow all FAA regs. If you ever jumped too close to cloud, didn't wear a seatbelt during the entire taxi, or pulled low, that jump doesn't count. But that's being picky, as some such rule about following the rules is inevitable.

[BIGUN 1,052]

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Your military static line jumps count towards the numbers you need for licenses, ratings and awards.

From the meeting minutes...

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Military jumps conducted on military orders. Should they count for USPA awards and licenses?

A question was posed to S&T as to whether military jumps conducted on military orders should they count for USPA awards and licenses? At issue is the use of round parachutes and exit and opening altitudes at and below 1200 feet AGL. The BSR’s state that jumps made under military orders do not need to be made in accordance to the BSR’s. Therefore the Committee believes
that it is clear in our BSRs that those jumps are being conducted in accordance with the BSRs and should apply towards the total jumps needed for B, C and D licenses as well as awards.

Morning, Mark

In review of the BoD meeting minutes, I'm not sure that the issue was ever ratified or implemented and appears contradictory. The awards section of the SIM is very definitive regarding the use of "freefall." And, while the bolded section states, "awards," it does not mention, "ratings." Nor, has the criteria for awards been changed regarding "Freefall."

Please note that I've got quite a few military jumps and am not opposed to their use, but as to Freefall for USPA ratings and USPA "Freefall awards," there is a difference in the type of experience received from that of being an experienced expert military static-line jumper and that of an experienced expert freefall skydiver. For example, if one has 400 military static-line jumps and 100 skydives, one cannot achieve the criteria prerequisites for either AFF/I as defined by the SIM nor TI as defined by FAR Part 105.45, Tandem Manufacturer, or USPA TI rating.

It's been about three years since I had a discussion with Jim Crouch about this subject and perhaps this question is best served by running it up the flagpole for a definitive ruling.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[riggerpaul 1]

FYI the SIM sections and text refer to the 2009-2010 SIM. This is the most current SIM at the time I am writing.

It seems to me that the question comes down to the notions of "applicability" and "compliance".

Though I will accept the ruling by the BOD, I don't agree that it is in concert with what the SIM says.

The way I see it, the question of "applicability" determines whether non-compliance is considered an actionable violation according to the bylaws of the organization. That is, since SIM 2.1.A.1 says the rules do not apply to military jumps, conduct that violates a BSR during a military jump will not be an actionable offense.

That does not say that all military jump are automatically considered to be in compliance with the BSRs. It only says that we don't care about military jumps that fail to comply.

SIM 3.1.B.4 stills says that only jumps, even military ones, that comply with the BSRs will be accepted. If 2.1.A.1 meant that military jumps are automatically in compliance, we would not need 3.1.B.4 to tell us which military jumps can be counted. So, as I see it, the very presence of 3.1.B.4 is a clear indication that not all military jumps are to be counted.

If the BOD really means what they said in the meeting whose minutes Mark Baur mentioned, they need to fix or remove 3.1.B.4 from the SIM.

[theonlyski 3]

I decided to get the clarification from the guys at USPA themselves.

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Hi Robert,

We will clean this up in the next version of the SIM so it is a bit clearer. The Board decided to allow military jumps to count towards jump numbers for licenses and awards, as stated in the minutes back in 2005:

Military jumps conducted on military orders. Should they count for USPA awards and

licenses?

A question was posed to S&T as to whether military jumps conducted on military orders should

they count for USPA awards and licenses? At issue is the use of round parachutes and exit and

opening altitudes at and below 1200 feet AGL. The BSR’s state that jumps made under military

orders do not need to be made in accordance to the BSR’s. Therefore the Committee believes

that it is clear in our BSRs that those jumps are being conducted in accordance with the BSRs

and should apply towards the total jumps needed for B, C and D licenses as well as awards.



However, it is a bit confusing that the BSRs state that military jumps need not meet the BSRs, therefore the jumps are in compliance with the BSRs. We will have a new version of the SIM ready sometime in the late summer-early fall. I am currently working on the edits for both the SIM and IRM, and the S&T Committee will be reviewing changes at the upcoming July Board meeting.



Thanks,
Jim Crouch

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[PmedicJ 0]

This is my take on it and i agree with a few posters "it is an exit out of an aircraft with a parachute!"
The question I would like answered by all the old timers that started out jumping static line rounds is.....Did it count towards your total jumps and magical jump numbers? If so why do military jumps not count?

I have heard the argument it is not the same thing and granted it is different and there is no freefall involved. but on the same token, they include these jumps towards licenses and awards themselves based on the sole exclusion is that what they started out on and all they had at the time!


I can also say that there is absolutely no sport jumper in existence (except those that have been to Ft.Benning speaking soley from the USA of course.)that has had the intensive training that involves the safety and jumping with equipment that they provide! Also, anyone who has been through jump school could teach a PLF or emergency procedures better than any AFF instructor, PERIOD!

Here is a quote from a blackhat that I remember well.

"I don't care how many skydives you have, Until you step out of a plane into pitch black darkness at 800' with 100lbs. of gear and 40lbs. of parachute your still just another F'ing leg!

Enough Said!

[RIGGER160 0]

Also, anyone who has been through jump school could teach a PLF or emergency procedures better than any AFF instructor, PERIOD!

You obviously have not seen or jumped with any recent graduates of the BAC

[PmedicJ 0]

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Also, anyone who has been through jump school could teach a PLF or emergency procedures better than any AFF instructor, PERIOD!

You obviously have not seen or jumped with any recent graduates of the BAC

I stand corrected then, No I have not seen a recent graduate!

But I have seen a student burn in kinda hard, so much so that they were already dialing 911 and he got up with a few bruises and the first thing he said to his instructor is "I don't care what they say about PLF's but man they sure do work!" but he has been out of the service for a while also.

[riggerpaul 1]

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This is my take on it and i agree with a few posters "it is an exit out of an aircraft with a parachute!"
The question I would like answered by all the old timers that started out jumping static line rounds is.....Did it count towards your total jumps and magical jump numbers? If so why do military jumps not count?

I have heard the argument it is not the same thing and granted it is different and there is no freefall involved. but on the same token, they include these jumps towards licenses and awards themselves based on the sole exclusion is that what they started out on and all they had at the time!


I can also say that there is absolutely no sport jumper in existence (except those that have been to Ft.Benning speaking soley from the USA of course.)that has had the intensive training that involves the safety and jumping with equipment that they provide! Also, anyone who has been through jump school could teach a PLF or emergency procedures better than any AFF instructor, PERIOD!

Here is a quote from a blackhat that I remember well.

"I don't care how many skydives you have, Until you step out of a plane into pitch black darkness at 800' with 100lbs. of gear and 40lbs. of parachute your still just another F'ing leg!

Enough Said!

Just to be clear, I don't care which way the decision is made. Count the jumps or don't, either is fine.

What I want is for the rules to reflect the current position on the question.

As they stand now, they do not.

That's a problem, because it is nuts to think that someone has to look at old BOD rulings to figure out the club rules.

The SIM should have changed when the BOD made the ruling. Then there would be no question now.

[BIGUN 1,052]

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The question I would like answered by all the old timers that started out jumping static line rounds is.....Did it count towards your total jumps and magical jump numbers? If so why do military jumps not count?

We "generally" had 3-5 S/L jumps under the USPA umbrella. Please note that back in the day, the main ripcord was mounted on the chest so there wasn't much missing the DRCP's coupled with a time when a majority of new skydivers were former/current Airborne and had similar gear and just needed to unlearn the military tuck and "new to us" hang & arch.

The S/L's under the USPA counted towards the number of jumps towards the then coveted USPA Gold Wings, however, the military jumps did not because they violated the BSR's lesser altitude minimums and in no case did they count towards the 12 Hour Freefall badge. We lived with it. It was a USPA rule and as such and in joining accepted the ruling.

Personally, I think we're becoming too wrapped up in the granularity of commingling military S/L jumps and skydiving. There is honor in both arenas. No one can take my military S/L experience from me and I'm proud to differentiate between my military S/L jumps and freefall skydives with discussions like, "I've got "X" number of military jumps, "Y" number of skydives and "Z" total jumps when talking with those in the sport; but when chasing poontang, just told the whuffo chicks I had "Z" number of jumps.

As to logging military S/L jumps back in the day, some did and some didn't; however, in no case were they used either for the USPA Gold Wings (awards) or ratings. That was just the rule. But, that was also a time when an I/E scrubbed every jump logged during a ratings course or an S&TA scrubbed for awards.

IMO; for the USPA, it should be about freefall, but I'm also somewhat disappointed that the USPA didn't do the name change to United States Skydiving Association a few years back when Chris purchased the name and there was some discussion about it which would have illuminated the differentiation.

Please note the emphasis on Military "S/L" because there is also MFF and for those who went, believe their skydives should count for USPA ratings and certifications.

In a time when one can (and have done) five hundred to a thousand skydives in a year, per year; I'm really not sure how much energy needs to be put into lacing a "usually" less than 100 military S/L's into the USPA rulings and what it will achieve. Especially now, during a time when military and skydiving gear are so vastly different than it was "back in the day."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[dgskydive 0]

IMHO, as a former paratrooper and Military JM. I think they should count toward jump numbers but not towards license requirements. Specifically towards getting off student status and the A license. There is so much more that you need to know then what is required of a military static line jump.

on the other hand there is a lot that you can learn from military static line jumps. But different skill sets are involved. I had close to 70 military static line jumps before I started skydiving. I learned skydiving through static line progression. Just the difference in exit altitude is enough to throw some military jumpers off. Big difference between stepping out in a really tight body position and counting to 4. Emergency procedures are way different, different body positions, different gear. I wont say the difference is night and day, but it is not the same.

Dom

[Bushmaster6 0]

Beat Your Boots!!!Hooah SGT, Airborne

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