Pro's and Con's Ohio vs. California DZ's

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Would you recommend someone going there to learn how to skydive, or is it more a DZ for experienced jumpers?

I cannot in good conscience recommend you do learn to skydive there. To many risks associated with poorly maintained and operated aircraft. A weak safety culture. An owner who has a history of very poor decision making.

That said there are some GREAT people who jump there. If you HAD to learn there, I would highly recommend Ed Pawlowski. His web address is elsewhere on this thread. He operates independently, and simply uses the aircraft there. Ed will show you not only how to skydive, but show you how to be a safe skydiver.

The number of deaths isn't really a good indicator of the risk of Lodi. The were mostly experience jumpers either making a mistake or running into uncontrollable situations (i.e. medical issues).

What is an indicator are the near misses that many people hush up. The aircraft accidents that are never reported. The low time jumpers that show poor judgement because they were never taught differently as students. Non rated skydivers doing AFF jumps.

The shame of it is that notable people in this sport will overlook, ignore, or simply hush up violations all to save a buck or two.

I'll be blasted for this post, mostly by the worst offenders. It doesn't bother me. When I can hear, without asking, of the violations and incidents at Lodi from more than 2000 to 3000 miles away...... well that says something to me.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[davelepka 4]

I sem to remember reading in another one of your posts that you have one jump, so I have to ask the obvious question, have you considered just making another jump at a DZ near your current residence?

If you live in Cali, there's a DZ within an hour or two of where ever you are, so how about you find a dog sitter for a day or two, and drive to that DZ for the day (or camp out for the weekend) and make a jump or two.

All of the plans you're considering are making some pretty big 'life' choices surrounding a sport you have very little info about. Let's face it, you thought you could get a job as a videographer right off student status. In all fairness to you, nobody expects you know the in's and out's of the skydivign world until you're in that world, but that's the whole point, you're not in that wolrd. Why not ease your way into it, and see if it's a 'lifestyle' you want to persue?

Find a DZ local to your current residence, and go through your student training. Get a license, get your own gear, and get a foothold in the sport. Then look for a DZ to move to spend some time at.

[Skwrl 56]

+1 for Ed... Top notch guy.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[ecnuob 0]

Quote

Quote

Would you recommend someone going there to learn how to skydive, or is it more a DZ for experienced jumpers?

I cannot in good conscience recommend you do learn to skydive there. To many risks associated with poorly maintained and operated aircraft. A weak safety culture. An owner who has a history of very poor decision making.

That said there are some GREAT people who jump there. If you HAD to learn there, I would highly recommend Ed Pawlowski. His web address is elsewhere on this thread. He operates independently, and simply uses the aircraft there. Ed will show you not only how to skydive, but show you how to be a safe skydiver.

The number of deaths isn't really a good indicator of the risk of Lodi. The were mostly experience jumpers either making a mistake or running into uncontrollable situations (i.e. medical issues).

What is an indicator are the near misses that many people hush up. The aircraft accidents that are never reported. The low time jumpers that show poor judgement because they were never taught differently as students. Non rated skydivers doing AFF jumps.

The shame of it is that notable people in this sport will overlook, ignore, or simply hush up violations all to save a buck or two.

I'll be blasted for this post, mostly by the worst offenders. It doesn't bother me. When I can hear, without asking, of the violations and incidents at Lodi from more than 2000 to 3000 miles away...... well that says something to me.

So where would YOU suggest he go?

[jump2live 0]

Hey econuob that is a good question. I live about 3 hours south of Lodi, but need a place that allows camping and dogs to camp too. Do you have any recommendations.

Also diablo- I do appreciate your input on Lodi even if is not the most popular. I don't know much if anything about skydiving and all these posts have been very imformative. It is always good to hear what people have to say and I thank you for your thoughts.

[diablopilot 2]

3 hours south of Lodi puts you not that far from Taft. Give them a shot, tell Alex I said hi.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jump2live 0]

Hey diablopilot,

Thanks a lot for the recommendation. I have never heard of Taft but I just checked out there website and it looks like a real nice facility. I know it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but the website itself was higher quality than some, well put together, and I always like seeing photos of the place.

Looks like they have camping, showers, and a special area just for dogs to play in. Although it is a bit more expensive, I'm definitely willing to pay a little more if it means a safer and better quality of experience and training.

I don't know why, or much really about this organization other than I keep seeing it pop up, but Taft being a training facility qualified by the USPA makes me feel like it might be held to a higher standard than those who are aren't.

Anyway, your recommendation of Taft is greatly appreciated. It is exactly the type of reply I was looking for from one of my first posts from two weeks ago! Before Taft, all other replies have led me to either driving half way across the county to Ohio, or moving to Lodi! I'll definitely tell Alex you said hi if it works out.

Thanks again and hope all is well,

-Michael

[flyingmontana 1]

I'm new to this sport too, and trying to get through my AFF training. I live in Ohio, and have been jumping at a terrific DZ near me. But holy crap, the weather here is frustrating me. It's now been 2 weeks since I've been able to get up in the air, because almost every day has been cloudy, rainy, and windy. I'm starting to freak out about whether I can remember all the stuff I learned two weeks ago. I used to live in California and now that I've discovered skydiving I have half a mind to move back there. So it makes NO sense to me that you would come here to Ohio, when you're already in the land of blue skies where you can really spend your days jumping instead of waiting around for the clouds to clear.
I also second the idea of the poster who suggested you invest in a dogsitter. The last thing anyone needs is your dog peeing on someone's parachute, right?

[jump2live 0]

Hi flyingmontana,

Hahaha, thanks for the info. Not to laugh at your unfortunate weather problems, but more at myself for even considering Ohio in the first place. I really thought that that was the place because the first forum I posted pointed me in that direction. They were awesome people, and willing to let me camp there for free with my dog. However, several people pointed out to me what you said here. That it would be stupid, and that if I didn't find a DZ in Cali that would fit my needs that it was my fault of not doing enough research.

It sounds like Cali is the place to be for this sport. Lots of DZ's because of the weather as you know. Being that I live here, why not stay.

I understand what you're saying about my dog pissing on stuff, but that wouldn't be a problem with him tied up while on the DZ property and far away from gear. Dog sitters are f'n expensive, and the whole reason of this camping deal is to live for cheap to have more money to spend on jumps!

Hope you get blue skies tomorrow!

Ohh yeah, How's the AFF going?!

[flyingmontana 1]

The weather forecast for the next 10 days at least is partly to mostly cloudy. I have a feeling I'll be spending a lot of time sitting at the DZ listening and waiting and hoping. I had hoped to get my license by the end of June, but I'll have to revise that timeline a bit. Luckily there is plenty of summer left, and I hope the weather will change for the better in July and August. But then in the fall I'm going to be struggling with major urges to quit my job and go live in Southern CA again! I did my first tandem at Lake Elsinore and that seemed to be a great place. It's too early for me to know for sure, but it seems to me that the people at my DZ are wonderful and really look out for each other. From what I'm reading on these forums, that is not unusual--people seem to form strong attachments, and my instructors have been so great that after only 5 AFF jumps I'd basically follow them anywhere. I feel like a complete newbie, and it's stressful to try and learn everything about safety and emergencies. But I'm already having intense skydiving dreams and feeling like I have a new purpose in life and I'd be surprised if I lose my passion for this anytime soon. I'm going to get some training in a wind tunnel next month too, so hopefully that will help me advance more quickly.

[WatchYourStep 0]

Mike-

You are making an investment by spending that much money to get licensed. Take the time and go visit Lodi and Taft. Get a feel for the place. You can learn a lot just by talking to the people there and picking up the vibe.

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[noname 0]

Quote

The shame of it is that notable people in this sport will overlook, ignore, or simply hush up violations all to save a buck or two.

This is rich coming from a guy who was an S&TA and refused to provide an incident report after a fatality. Look in the mirror first JP.

[diablopilot 2]

You have proof of your accusation?

Mara, I've been to Lodi, I've seen first hand what goes on there, and I've talked to Bill.

You and I have never met, so I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you're talking about.

And if you're using your husband as a reference to figure out how the USPA works, don't. He hasn't a clue.

Edit: Good grief....you're not even a USPA member?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[headoverheels 291]

Quote

The number of deaths isn't really a good indicator of the risk of Lodi. The were mostly experience jumpers either making a mistake or running into uncontrollable situations (i.e. medical issues).

Good preventive statement. You wouldn't want the higher death rate at your home drop zone pointed out, without being able to say that.

[diablopilot 2]

What home DZ? What death rate? You have knowledge of deaths vs jumps at multiple DZ's?

Gary: I'd suggest you have no idea where I jump.

Mara: I AM (not was) an S&TA. At-large. That means I have a responsibility that is secondary to the DZ S&TA. It is a DZ's S&TA's responsibility to file such reports, and considering in your region who it's required to be submitted to, I can't blame them for wanting to keep the information confidential.

I however did submit a report of the incident you assume to know something about to the appropriate individual at USPA HQ. In person. Verbally.

Check your facts kids, or this is going to be a long day for ya'll.

Back to the point. When will either of you stand up and refuse to put up with gross violations of FAR's at Lodi?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[headoverheels 291]

Did you call Bill about bringing the dog? Last I knew, Lodi had an "official" no dog policy, but several regulars bring theirs. I wouldn't show up with a dog without asking ahead.

[jump2live 0]

Hey thanks for the advice,

Kathy from Lodi assured me that it wouldn't be a problem. I told her I would stay out of the way and keep my dog away for non-dog-friendly people and all facilities.

I know for sure though now that Skydive Taft allows pets so I'm definitely going to travel to both facilities and check out the vibe before choosing.

What are these FARs/S&TAs all about that I keep reading on here?

[diablopilot 2]

FAR = Federal Aviation Regulations: The Federal laws that govern aeronautical activities in the US, including skydiving.


S&TA = Safety & Training Advisor: A position appointed by the USPA (United States Parachute Association) to aid in the promotion of safe skydiving among it's members. HElps with education and compliance with the BSR's.


BSR's = Basic Safety Requirements: A set of best practice regulations from the USPA and often referenced by the FAA to self regulate and govern skydiving in the US in an effort to keep the Federal Government out of the day to day regulation of skydiving. Also a very good set of rules to keep you alive.


If you need any help along the way, feel free to ask. Here or [email protected]


Edit: Hey, go to the following page and download the SIM (Skydivers Information Manual). It's good study material, and it will set you on the path to becoming a safe jumper. http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/Downloads/tabid/84/Default.aspx

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jump2live 0]

Hey thanks again for the message and the link. I will be sure to print off the SIM and read it thoroughly. I appreciate it!

Just wondering, it doesn't make sense to me fully now that I understand the terms in those posts....

You asked when the others would stand up to, and get sick of, the violations of Lodi's FARs.. If the FAA came to check everything out at Lodi, grounding all the planes, and now they are back up and running, doesn't that mean that Lodi was cleared from the FAA. Or that Lodi was in-fact operating all along in a safe enough manner to where the the head honchos of the flying world considered them at par with the standards of aviation?

Possibly I am not understanding all the posts and their replies fully?

Thanks again,

-Michael

[davelepka 4]

The FAA doesn't make a habit of showing up at DZs to look around and make sure everything is above board. There's a thing called a 'ramp check', where they do show up and make sure all the paperwork is in order, but 9 times out of 10 a ramp check is the result of a phone call from someone who has reason to believe that a DZ won't pass a ramp check. The FAA does not have agents in the field roaming the countryside performing ramp checks.

What happened at Lodi was step beyond a ramp check, and involved grounding the entire fleet while the FAA investigated their maintenence records, and if they actually matched the condition of the planes.

In all fairness to Lodi, this came on the heels of a double fatality which had nothing to do with the DZ or it's procedures, and a collapsed gear on a plane during landing which may or may not have been the fault of the DZ. Either way all of the 'buzz' caught the attention of the FAA, so they end up with the planes on the ground.

One example of how Lodi is 'different' than other DZs is that they don't use radios with their student jumpers. The majority of DZ will put a radio on a student where the instructor on the ground can talk to the student under canopy. They can assist you with finding the DZ from under canopy, and make sure you're following the flight plan taught before the jump.

Lodi chooses not to use a radio, with the idea being that it creates a more self-reliant student. The counter argument to this is that if a student is performing well on their own, the instructor does not have to say one word over the radio and the student can fly the canopy on their own. However, if the student is not flying in the right direction, or following the flight plan, the instructor has an avenue to correct this.

A few years back a student at Lodi was not following the flight plan, and ended up in a bad situation. Being a student, she did not know how to get out of that situaiton, and flew her canopy into a telephone pole with her body hitting the actual pole and sustaining some severe facial injuries. If she had a radio, an instructor could have told her to turn back toward the correct area much sooner in the canopy ride, and avoided the incident all together.

This is just one example, and to be fair there are other DZs that do not use radios, but they are in the small minority. As far as I know, Lodi is the only 'big' DZ that doesn't use a radio system.

If you think a radio is a good idea, maybe include that as one of the questions you could ask a possible DZ when making your decision.

[Psychonaut 0]

Quote

A few years back a student at Lodi was not following the flight plan, and ended up in a bad situation. Being a student, she did not know how to get out of that situaiton, and flew her canopy into a telephone pole with her body hitting the actual pole and sustaining some severe facial injuries. If she had a radio, an instructor could have told her to turn back toward the correct area much sooner in the canopy ride, and avoided the incident all together.

The only reason I would have liked to have a radio on that particular student is to tell her that skydiving is not her cup of tea, and to find another sport/hobby/activity.

Stay high pull low

[TiaDanger 0]

As stated previously above, I did AFF in Lodi (no flaming please, I'm a cool person, honest!) When i started, i had no idea DZs even used radios to guide students in. I was not trained on a radio, and never felt like I was missing something from my instruction by not having one. Landing patterns and procedures were pounded into my head...for me personally, why would i need a radio? I've already gone over that information on the ground. And lets just say, winds changed... I learned in ground school that my pattern needed to change with the winds as well.

Could it be the case that students/instructors feel they need to rely on a radio because their ground instruction was not complete and repetitive enough? Perhaps radios need to be on a student-by-student basis, not just the default. If you as an instructor feel that your student is competent enough sans radio, then leave it out. If you feel that your student is not ready to land sans radio, then give one to him/her.

I can't tell you how many times my AFF instructor made me look at that damn arial photo of the DZ to memorize what it looked like from above. Same with actual landing procedures. I would think the only way you could truly 'misplace' the DZ (not including not recognizing it) is if you had a bad spot, but even then, I would hope your instructor would have noticed the bad spot and had you pull a little higher.

Just my personal anecdote on the situation. My ground school provided me with the information I needed to safely and efficiently find the dropzone, land safely, and land out safely if the situation arose. I am no worse for wear because I didn't have a radio. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be used, I'm saying that people actually survive AFF without them.

And for the record: the appropriate ranking of cool modes of transportation is jet pack, hover board, transporter, Batmobile, and THEN giant ant.
D.S. #8.8

[billvon 2,384]

>Could it be the case that students/instructors feel they need to rely on a
>radio because their ground instruction was not complete and repetitive
>enough?

No more so than you need an AAD because you are not competent enough to open your own parachute.

>If you as an instructor feel that your student is competent enough sans
>radio, then leave it out. If you feel that your student is not ready to land
>sans radio, then give one to him/her.

I train my students to land without a radio - and then I give them one just in case. I train them to make sure that no matter what they deploy a canopy before impact - and then I make sure they have an AAD anyway. I train them to always, always pull their reserve after pulling their cutaway handle - and I make sure their RSL is connected anyway.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I can't tell you how many times my AFF instructor made me look at that damn arial photo of the DZ to memorize what it looked like from above. Same with actual landing procedures. I would think the only way you could truly 'misplace' the DZ (not including not recognizing it) is if you had a bad spot, but even then, I would hope your instructor would have noticed the bad spot and had you pull a little higher.

The Lodi picture is a simpler one than many, albeit with some serious don't land there issues to the east (easy to see freeeway and then the vineyards). Huge amount of land for overshooting to the west.

What I recall the last time I was there was a tendency by some, including the guy right in front of me, to do some severe S turns on the base leg so they could land in the grass in front.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

A few years back a student at Lodi was not following the flight plan, and ended up in a bad situation. Being a student, she did not know how to get out of that situaiton, and flew her canopy into a telephone pole with her body hitting the actual pole and sustaining some severe facial injuries. If she had a radio, an instructor could have told her to turn back toward the correct area much sooner in the canopy ride, and avoided the incident all together.

The only reason I would have liked to have a radio on that particular student is to tell her that skydiving is not her cup of tea, and to find another sport/hobby/activity.

I never quite understood that kind of attitude when applied to students, especially raw beginners. Some pretty top-notch jumpers started out as pretty fucked-up students.