Conspiracy of Silence @ DZs

[petetheladd 0]

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Well then why didn't you post that for the things you saw?

I did on what I thought was a serious accident.

Please refrain from a "why dont you ... " i.e. the 2 wrongs make a right philosophy

PtL

No, Not without incident

[IanHarrop 37]

Sorry, was just responding to your statement that others had copped out.

Pot meet Kettle.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Brian425 0]

Pete,
I jump at the DZ you seem to be talking about. There is NOTHING hidden there. For whatever reason, they choose not to post about most incidents here. If something is posted here, one of 3 people generally respond with the facts of the incident.
When I posted about my accident there last August, everyone at the DZ was pefectly happy with my choice. It took me a little while to post as I was healing up. I was told by a few people that they did not post becasue it was MY business and MY choice to post or not post. It is not a conspiracy of silence. It is respect for my privacy.
This is a wonderful site and I truly believe that the incidents post here do a great service to the community. It is not an official agency that regulates our sport though. Posting here is a coutesy to the community; however, we must respect the jumpers involved first.
Personally I will always post any incidents I may be involved in. I will never post about another jumper. It's not my business.
I don't feel that it is a case of hiding anything. Just differences in what people believe. I may not agree with what you think about posting here; but, I support you right to your opinion. I would ask one thing of you though. Please try to speak to the jumper involved before posting here. I think that they deserve that courtesy.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[Jimbo 0]

I think that this is important:

> I was told by a few people that they did not post becasue it was MY
> business and MY choice to post or not post. It is not a conspiracy of
> silence. It is respect for my privacy.

> Personally I will always post any incidents I may be involved in. I
> will never post about another jumper. It's not my business.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[councilman24 36]

As hard as it is to believe, not everyone is on dz.com. For the most part I'm the only one on my dz that spends much time here at all. Many, including the DZO doesn't even know what it is.

And every broken ankle or brused butt isn't worth posting. Every ambulance run is NOT necessarily worth talking about.

This is NOT the entire world of skydiving!

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[jlmiracle 7]

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No obligation, but man I would think sharing events that might save another pain, or maybe their life would be worth it.

Part of the problem are people who don't believe in personal responsibilty and want to do the blame game. People who don't want the injured or dead to be blamed for choices they make are the ones that seem to do all the unconstructive posting in the incidents and most of them were never ever there or even new the injured or deceased.

Its more the way people respond here is why more incidents aren't posted, and it will only get worse. (both incidents and lack of posting to learn from them.)

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[headoverheels 291]

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Probably because there was no new lesson to be learned.

I see this as another cop-out. How can anybody know what a new/recent forum member can learn or has missed due to a short history in the sport.

Okay, maybe we should just come up with a numbered list of all the commonly made mistakes and post it as a sticky. When an incident occurs, just post "this weekend a #37 happened at Hardground DZ." No further discussion needed 95% of the time.

[Ron 7]

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Okay, maybe we should just come up with a numbered list of all the commonly made mistakes and post it as a sticky. When an incident occurs, just post "this weekend a #37 happened at Hardground DZ." No further discussion needed 95% of the time

Its one reason I wish only a few people could start threads.

If there was an accident you could report it...And the a mod could start a thread.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Reginald 0]

Or it could just be that short of a fatality people disagree with you on the value of posting in DZ.com. Honestly I find it a bit arrogant of you to think that the rest of us should see the world the way you do.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[petetheladd 0]

Noones being ordered to march to the beat of my particular drum.

I am looking to see what underlying reasons/excuses exist for unreported accidents.

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short of a fatality people disagree with you on the value of posting in DZ.com

BTW, I heartly disagree with your argument and expect at some later date your thinking will probably change.

People Please answer the poll, It gives some hard numbers.

Lets say that Given you seen or were on the DZ at the time a serious incident occurred and had some initial info, would you - most of the time - agree with option A, B or C .

Note if a perfect match cannot be found, pick the closest one.

Even if you have never witnessed one - what would you theoretically do

Ptl
.

No, Not without incident

[hookncrater 0]

your poll doesn't have enough options... none apply to me, hence no vote

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[speedy 0]

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This is NOT the entire world of skydiving!

This may get you banned

But on a more serious note, some peeps take the internet far too seriously and should spend more time talking to real people at real dropzones.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[tigra 0]

Your poll is ridiculous! None of the options apply to most of us, not even close.

[IanHarrop 37]

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People Please answer the poll, It gives some hard numbers.

Lets say that Given you seen or were on the DZ at the time a serious incident occurred and had some initial info, would you - most of the time - agree with option A, B or C .

Note if a perfect match cannot be found, pick the closest one.

"It gives some hard numbers." Sorry, I disagree and given that the statements made here have already been subject to ridicule, I cannot just just "pick the closest one" as I expect that the numbers this poll generates will be interpreted incorrectly.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[petetheladd 0]

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Your poll is ridiculous! None of the options apply to most of us, not even close.

Go start a better one then.

Reminds me of the wing loading debate - many voices willing to shoot down and few to build up.

Try something constructive and get back to me.

PtL
.
Ron - I feel your pain.....

.

No, Not without incident

[kelpdiver 2]

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I am looking to see what underlying reasons/excuses exist for unreported accidents.

Yet your headline and postings suggests you already have an answer in mind. Come on, there's no world wide conspiracy to keep injuries hidden.

You're asking why people don't do an action - that is our default behavior! We do what interests or benefits us. Posting a vague recollection that we saw some ambulance take away some unknown person for some unknown injuries due to an unknown cause isn't very interesting.

[IanHarrop 37]

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Well then why didn't you post that for the things you saw?

I did on what I thought was a serious accident.

Please refrain from a "why dont you ... " i.e. the 2 wrongs make a right philosophy

PtL

Which of the poll answers supplied were applicable to the 3 out 4 things you witnessed that you did not report?

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[tigra 0]

Its not my issue, its yours. You already believe there's a "conspiracy of silence" out there and your poll is slanted to support that theory. I don't need a poll. I think we do a pretty good job on this site reporting and discussing serious accidents.

[sunshine 2]

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its not an obligation of anyone to post anything on here.

Perfectly stated Remi.

I never bother to post about any incidents i witness. Not cause i'm being secretive, simply because i think the incidents forum is a big joke most of the time. People always say "what can we learn from this?" I still think most people don't care about learning, they're just nosey and want all the information. I'll stick with discussing things with my friends either on the phone or IM.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[livendive 8]

Your poll options are too limited. There was a tib-fib at one of the dz's I was at this weekend. It wasn't reported here and I don't see the value in doing so. Tib-fib and femur are verbs, and low-turns into the ground often prompt people to participate in such activities. I'll report fatalities and life-threatening injuries if appropriate (my dz and I know at least most of the details). Routine injuries I'll usually leave alone unless there's something unique about them that you won't see in a month of jumping at big DZ's/boogies.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[nathaniel 0]

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Reminds me of the wing loading debate - many voices willing to shoot down and few to build up.
Try something constructive and get back to me.

Reality check: That's the characteristic of bad ideas!

That someone else can or can't do X has no bearing on whether your idea is bad.

There are some situations for which we have no solution, or for which we don't know the solution yet. Perhaps no "solution" is needed at all.

In the States, we have laws that protect a patient's right to confidentiality of medical information. If the patient decides to exercise his right, who are you to barge in, steal his info & post it for the world to see?

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[MarkM 0]

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A) It takes a level of responsibility to put yourself out there and report on an incident and these days responsibility is usually avoided. Lets face its sooo much easier to let sleeping dogs lie

B) It probably wont make you very popular at your local DZ as it may be perceived you've told on them and it makes the place look bad.

C) if its you personally that have had an incident, you dont really want to face the armchair quarter backing from others with their fanatical edge and you may have convinced yourself it was outside factors anyways or you know your mistake so you've already learned all you can from it.

D) You didn't see the incident first hand or don't have all the information involved(how many jumps, what exactcly happened, what type, let alone WL of canopy) and don't want to post a half assed incident report that could be completely wrong.

E) There's nothing to be learned from the incident, because the same exact type of incident was posted last week, the week before, the week before that...

[pash 0]

Post what you can understand. The experienced may weed it out as matter or course. They may, however, comment in such a way that will keep us alive. Ignored or commented upon - those commented upon are more likely to be seen by those who have not been around along enough to see it as matter of fact.

j

[Liemberg 0]

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If we only posted incidents caused by mechanisms that never happened before, the incident forums would be a ghost town.

OTOH if we posted each and every incident we wouldn't have enough time to read it all.

And yes, there are other (legal & business) issues.

For a DZO / DZ- management it is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation :

You would be damned if you do report each and every incident since your place would be mentioned a whole lot more than others which might give the impression to the uninformed that jumping at your place is a lot more dangerous than jumping elswhere, where they don't report as meticulously as you do...

You would be damned if you don't report anything - "the DZ is conspiring" to keep the sorry state of the operation silent for the general public even though you are under no obligation to report everything at DZ.com and you can easily put yourself on slippery slopes legally speaking when you do state the facts as you perceive them.

My guess is that most DZ's are well aware of this website and will only react once a discussion starts. If you look back in the incident forum you'll find that almost always if and when a heated debate follows you'll get a statement from the DZ and there it doesn't matter if an overweight tandempassenger twisted his ankle, an inexperienced person got into something over their head or two where killed in a midair collision. Its the intensity of the debate, not the seriousness of the incident or 'its educational value' that triggers the reaction...

DZO's / DZ managment is naturally reluctant and will almost never start a thread about an incident that occured at their place...

Doesn't make em criminals... (though people keep telling me I have a few nasty streaks...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[bmcd308 0]

>>I think thats a cop out. If a incident occurred then post what ever facts you know even if its just a terse "Incident at DZ X on x/x/2005, no details can anyone give further information"

Setting a seed like this has many times caused someone else to pipe up with concrete info <<

No, it causes the poster to get 500 PMs demanding to know what brand of helmet the guy was wearing when he had his lineover or what brand of tennis shoes may or may not have contributed to his low turn or how the poster could in good conscience continue to jump at a dz that allowed people to lubricate their cutaway cables from the 24 oz. can of silicone when Bill Booth himself says to use the 12 oz. can.

It is impossible to know absolutely everything about an incident. It is very difficult to know everything that is relevant. I do not even know what malfunction I cut away from. When people ask me, all I can tell them is "an unlandable canopy." I was there, and I have no idea why it was turning or what could be done to keep it from happening again.

And around here, if you post without knowing absolutely everything, you get snowed under by people who think you are hiding something.

Also, if you don't know at least most of what is relevant, no one can learn from the accident. What can we learn from "a guy got hurt this weekend"? The accident might stimulate discussion of safety issues, but that is what the S&T forum is for.

I think people do a pretty good job of reporting things that they have a reason to report, and there are even lots of threads that don't really provide any new information. As an example, I wrote a post about a low turn and stuck it in Incidents. I almost put it in GSD, because the purpose of the post was as much to clear my mind about it as it was anything else. Did anyone learn anything new from that incident? I don't think so. And the whole thread turned into a charlie foxtrot of bashing people for having differeing opinions concerning the role of USPA in regulating wingloading.

So anyway, I guess my point is unless it serves the interest of the skydiving community in some tangible way, there is no need to post about every incident.

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