Taking a wrap to stall

[gdmusumeci 0]

I've heard a lot of people saying that they have taken a wrap on their brake lines to stall their canopy. It seems like this maybe isn't a good idea.

The situation I'm imagining goes like so. You take a few wraps on the brake lines and induce a stall. When you try to recover from the stall, you have a violent recovery (perhaps you let up unevenly, or too quickly). You are now in a not particularly nice situation: you're spinning hard under a partially inflated parachute, which might put quite a lot of tension on the control lines. Unfortunately, they're wrapped around your hands: it seems like that might restrict your access to the cutaway handle.

Perhaps it's safer to stall on rear risers, or perhaps I'm just being paranoid. Does anyone have any thoughts on this topic?

[Frenchy68 0]

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Perhaps it's safer to stall on rear risers, or perhaps I'm just being paranoid. Does anyone have any thoughts on this topic?

How about shortening the brake lines? Would love some input on this as well.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[dtby74 0]

Why would you want to stall the canopy anyway?

[Squeak 17]

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Perhaps it's safer to stall on rear risers, or perhaps I'm just being paranoid. Does anyone have any thoughts on this topic?

How about shortening the brake lines? Would love some input on this as well.

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Why would you want to stall the canopy anyway?

1stly shortening the brake lines is a BAD idea, it will prevent your canopy flying on full glide and raise your stall point.

2ndly Why you'd want to stall your canopy, different size and shaped canopies all stall at different places, learning where your stall point is on your canopy up high will help prevent you from finding out where it is close to the ground.



3rdly, Pratice up high, stall points on LARGER lightly loaded canopies tend to require a wrap.
Smaller more loaded canopies DONT.


Stalls can be fun, SCARY but fun

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[jakee 1,254]

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1stly shortening the brake lines is a BAD idea, it will prevent your canopy flying on full glide and raise your stall point.

It will also cause buffeting if you then use front risers.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[audacium 0]

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1stly shortening the brake lines is a BAD idea, it will prevent your canopy flying on full glide and raise your stall point.

Well, guess I have to tell JC Colclasure then that he does not have the right knowledge about canopies when he shortened my brake lines before continuing my canopy control course in March .

It can be even a very good idea to shorten the brake lines, but as always you need the right knowledge. Before one starts working on the brake line length it is a good idea to consult an experienced canopy flyer.
You do not need to be able to stall your canopy to get great landings, but there is certainly a point where brake line length can be way too conservative and you are not able to use the canopy's full performance envelope.

JC shortened my brake lines about five inches and I still have a hard time stalling the canopy at all. But I can definitely say it has improved my landings tremendously as I have much more control input now if necessary.

But then, if you discussed this with an experienced coach and you both think a shortening should be done the idea is about like this: Your brake lines are like the brake pedal in your car. If you sit two meters away from the pedal you will have a hard time braking when necessary resp slow the car down to a complete stop. If you sit too close you will always hit the brakes too hard.

So, if your brake lines are too long you cannot give all the possible input to slow the canopy down.

How do you find out whether your brake lines are too long: Well, there is no general rule. It depends on many factors, canopy obviously, but also your body, arm length, landings etc. But as an example as discussed in my canopy control course: If you are completely unable to stall the canopy even when holding down for a while or if you need a wrap then the lines _might_ be too long and it could be a good idea to shorten the lines in gentle steps, try out high and see what happens.

Now, when shortening the brake lines, a few things need to be kept in mind that put a natural limit on the shortening:
1. When you let the toggles completely up the canopy should be at full glide without any brake input, ie, the tail must not be inhibited at all. Obviously, you will need some slack to ensure this. How much...again...no general rule.
2. Obviously, the feel must be right. Usually the idea is that you can pull down the brake lines completely without stalling the canopy, at least not immediately. A canopy that stalls on chest level is dangerous to fly and land.
3. The brake lines must not be so short that while pulling front risers you simultaneously pull the tail which will cause buffeting and is an undesirable situation.

So, talk to an experienced canopy pilot, open high, play around at the stall point, measure the slack in the brake lines at full glide, and if you shorten then shorten in gentle steps. If done properly it will help you get more response from your canopy.

And stalling your canopy (preferrably on a large canopy at low wingloadings) is in my eyes one of the things to learn about the canopy. You learn the feel, you learn how to react, and then you will not panick when it happens to you close to the ground. It is a different thing if you fly a higher-performance canopy, some will react unfavorably to a stall and go into line twists etc. But on a beginner canopy this should definitely be tried out, I would say.

HTH.

--
Eduard

[kallend 1,618]

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2ndly Why you'd want to stall your canopy, different size and shaped canopies all stall at different places, learning where your stall point is on your canopy up high will help prevent you from finding out where it is close to the ground.

OK, but if it won't stall without a wrap up high, why would it close to the ground? What exactly are you learning by making a wrap to find out where it stalls?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[labrys 0]

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What exactly are you learning by making a wrap to find out where it stalls?

I guess you're learning what a stall feels like...

Owned by Remi #?

[NeedToJump 0]

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OK, but if it won't stall without a wrap up high, why would it close to the ground? What exactly are you learning by making a wrap to find out where it stalls?

What you are learning is what a the canopy feels like before a stall occurs and how to recover from a stall when you are expecting it to happen and already have a plan in place for the situation. Learning this up high on a docile canopy will only make someone safer when transitioning to a smaller canopy which can stall close to the ground.

Hopefully by practicing stalls and stall recovery up high you can prevent them from happening unintentionally. Since you know how the canopy feels before the stall occurs, you can recognize this feeling and fix the problem. Also, should you unintentionally stall your canopy, you will know how to recover from it (assumming it does not happen too close to the ground.)

The point of taking wraps to stall a canopy isn't necessarily to learn where that particular canopy stalls but rather what a stall feels like and how to deal with it.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[kallend 1,618]

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What exactly are you learning by making a wrap to find out where it stalls?

I guess you're learning what a stall feels like...

I know what a stall feels like.

I want to know the purpose of taking a wrap to make a canopy stall that otherwise won't stall. How will this help you close to the ground, which seems to be the thrust of the comment I was responding to... "learning where your stall point is on your canopy up high will help prevent you from finding out where it is close to the ground."

Learning where the stall point is if I can only stall with a wrap won't tell me anything useful about flying close to the ground without a wrap.

.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Squeak 17]

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1stly shortening the brake lines is a BAD idea, it will prevent your canopy flying on full glide and raise your stall point.

Well, guess I have to tell JC Colclasure then that he does not have the right knowledge about canopies when he shortened my brake lines before continuing my canopy control course in March .

HTH.

Purhaps your line were too long to start with My post (though not mentioned) was meant for a canopy with properly trimmed lines

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 2,379]

>1stly shortening the brake lines is a BAD idea.

Depends on the canopy and the trim. New Pilots, for example, tend to come with very long brake lines that can be safely shortened a few inches. As long as the brake lines are still bowed and the tail is not deflected at all, the brakes aren't too short.

[Frenchy68 0]

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>1stly shortening the brake lines is a BAD idea.

Depends on the canopy and the trim. New Pilots, for example, tend to come with very long brake lines that can be safely shortened a few inches. As long as the brake lines are still bowed and the tail is not deflected at all, the brakes aren't too short.

That's what I meant in my earlier post. And I do have a Pilot, and had to have the brake lines shortened in order to have a full range of flare.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[labrys 0]

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Learning where the stall point is if I can only stall with a wrap won't tell me anything useful about flying close to the ground without a wrap.

Sure, you're absolutely right in regard to the primary question. I was thinking about my own experience when I answered.

I just swapped canopies from a Hornet 190 to a Sabre2 170. On my Hornet, I attempted a stall at full toggle extension and it didn't happen. I took a wrap and stalled, learning 2 things: 1. that I couldn't stall the Hornet at full extension and 2. What a stall felt like as it started, fully developed, and as I returned to full flight.

The first time I jumped the 170 I attempted a stall at full extension and felt it start to happen within a few seconds without the wrap. I eased up and didn't let it fully stall because I didn't need to. I already knew what would happen. So...

Yeah, again, you're right. Taking a wrap on the Hornet to induce a stall didn't really teach me anything. But, hey... it was fun

Owned by Remi #?

[davelepka 4]

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I attempted a stall at full toggle extension and it didn't happen. I took a wrap and stalled, learning 2 things: 1. that I couldn't stall the Hornet at full extension and 2. What a stall felt like as it started, fully developed, and as I returned to full flight.

Taking a wrap on the Hornet to induce a stall didn't really teach me anything.

You're contradicting yourself here, as well as missign a key point.

Even if you need a wrap to stall a canopy at altitude, when you want it to, doesn't mean that your canopy cannot stall without a wrap when you don't want it to.

If your full arms extension was just a hair away from a stall, completing your flare on the diminishing side of a wind gust (as in airspeed is dropping) can cause a stall to develop. In this case, you may recognize the feeling, and be able to let up slightly, or at least be ready to get dropped on your ass. Without the experience of stalling your canopy, you would not recognize the feeling, and not be prepared for the stall.

Any additional experience you can safely gain with your canopy (like a stall at 2000ft+) will only help you. The logic used to determine that stalling a canopy that needs a wrap is a waste of time is flawed.

[labrys 0]

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You're contradicting yourself here, as well as missign a key point.

My comment that stalling the Hornet didn't teach me anything was intended to be sarcastic, but....

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Even if you need a wrap to stall a canopy at altitude, when you want it to, doesn't mean that your canopy cannot stall without a wrap when you don't want it to.

I hadn't considered that possibility, Dave. Gawd, sometimes I wonder how I stay alive. I'm not being sarcastic now. Every time someone points out one of the 8 million things I don't know I wonder....

Owned by Remi #?

[bmcd308 0]

>>I know what a stall feels like. <<

But not everyone does.

And it is better to find out up high on the big slow canopy than down low three new canopy sizes down the road.

Is this exercise critical? Maybe not.
Is it useful? Maybe.
Is it fun? I thought so.


>Learning where the stall point is if I can only stall with a wrap won't tell me anything useful about flying close to the ground without a wrap. <<

True that.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[pilotdave 0]

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I know what a stall feels like.

How? Prolly had to stall once or twice to know that, right?

Dave

[veter_ 0]

You raise a valid safety point.

Why not just hold the brake line above the toggle attachment point, without wrap? E.g. you bring your hands together and grab the line higher while helping with the other hand. In case of spinning malfunction you just release the line and your hands are in the toggles which you can quickly release.

[lowie 0]

Or even take one wrap try to stall (hold for a few seconds) release then take another wrap and repeat. If you have only just taken enough to stall the canopy then your hands up position will be still close to giving full flight. I've never had any problem getting rid of wraps wither skydiving or paragliding - in fact its more a case of the opposite - too easy to lose them when you least want to.

[kallend 1,618]

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I know what a stall feels like.

How? Prolly had to stall once or twice to know that, right?

Dave

Yes, but I don't need a wrap to do it.

I still maintain that knowing your canopy stall point at altitude when you've had to wrap in order to make it happen won't help at all on landing when you don't have a wrap on a canopy that won't stall without a wrap.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[davelepka 4]

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I still maintain that knowing your canopy stall point at altitude when you've had to wrap in order to make it happen won't help at all on landing when you don't have a wrap on a canopy that won't stall without a wrap.
...

I know that a canopy with a tear i the top skin will stall sooner than before the tear was present. I also know that many topskin tears are landed, and the jumper has no clue unitl he gets dumped on his ass trying to land.

I know that when attempting slow flight in gusty or turbulent conditions, and canopy will stall at a toggle position higher than in stable air. Keep in mind, landing is attempting slow flight.

On top of that, I also know that the more a pilot knows about what his canopy can and cannot do will only serve to better his piloting skills, as well as his confidence under canopy.

Oh wait, here's another one, lets say you're trying to sink your canopy into a back yard. Deep in your toggles (becasue you need a wrap to stall it), what happens when you get into the wind shadow of those trees by the house? Why do I feel like I'm falling over backwards? I never felt that before, I'll just hold the toggles down and hope for the best.......

[petetheladd 0]

A thread on canopy stalling - why do it, what it teaches etc..

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1139017;search_string=stall;#1139017


Ptl
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No, Not without incident

[pilotdave 0]

If you have to take a wrap, clearly you aren't learning a stall point you'll ever encounter under normal conditions (not flying with your steering lines wrapped). But you don't see any usefulness in learning how your canopy behaves as it approaches a stall? It also lets you know how much margin you really have between a full flare and a stall.

I don't need to take wraps to stall my canopy, but even if I did, I'd still like to know how far from stalling I am when I'm holding a full flare. I've only fully stalled my canopy, to the point of collapse, once - during scott miller's canopy course. Glad I did... learned something that I didn't know before. If I had to take wraps to do it, I would have learned just as much.

Dave

[kallend 1,618]

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If you have to take a wrap, clearly you aren't learning a stall point you'll ever encounter under normal conditions (not flying with your steering lines wrapped). But you don't see any usefulness in learning how your canopy behaves as it approaches a stall? It also lets you know how much margin you really have between a full flare and a stall.

I don't need to take wraps to stall my canopy, but even if I did, I'd still like to know how far from stalling I am when I'm holding a full flare. I've only fully stalled my canopy, to the point of collapse, once - during scott miller's canopy course. Glad I did... learned something that I didn't know before. If I had to take wraps to do it, I would have learned just as much.

Dave

The FAA no longer requires spin training for a pilot certificate (except CFI), and preaches spin avoidance instead. I expect they had a good reason for that although some people grumble about it. I see this as somewhat similar. (BTW I have taken spin training, not because it was required but because it was fun).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.