EVERYONE should barrel roll.

[billvon 2,396]

>There are many situations where a barrel roll during your track is
>reasonable if not necessary . . .

There are a great many situations in which barrel rolling during a track is reasonable and even fun (if you allow extra time for it, plan the breakoff for it, brief people etc.) It is not necessary; it does not "add safety" to the dive, other than incidentally.

I would liken it to the 45 degree rule. There's nothing wrong with looking at the group exiting before you to see when they pass that 45 degree line. They never will, but there's no harm in looking for it. And, if you are like most people who use it, you'll look at them for a while (until you either get sick of waiting or until you figure they've passed some other angle) and then get out. This accomplishes the objective of separating groups by increasing time between exits.

However, that's different than claiming the 45 degree rule is "necessary." It's not, it's just something to do while you're waiting to exit.

[danielcroft 2]

I back track away from freefly jumps and then flip to belly track after a couple of seconds. I've done specific back tracking jumps where I've learned how to back track well and I now lead tracking jumps. I'm not the greatest back tracker in the world by any means but it's not exactly easy to do well.

I've also been told to barrel roll from tracking jumps but I do not tell people to do that when I lead tracking jumps. I think the purpose of barrel rolling on tracking jumps is when you have a larger group with widely disparate tracking skills. Some people have trouble getting down to the rabbit and are hanging around above the formation. Some people fall out and are in an unknown location. I tend to agree with the assessment that barrel rolling doesn't actually really help. I think when the skills are widely varying and the jump doesn't go so well, being extra vigilant is advisable, I'm not sure that the value of a barrel roll is anything more than a misconception.

On belly jumps I track my ass off (but then again, I love tracking). If you look under your body, you can usually see the other people on your jump also tracking away (unless you're not very good at tracking) and make sure everyone is accounted for.

I think generally speaking people need to learn how to track better. Tracking is a skill like any other we attempt to master in this sport except you could argue that mastering tracking (or at least becoming proficient) has a much greater chance of increasing your safety margin than many of the other skills people spend vast amounts of time learning. I'd put canopy flight and tracking as two survival skills in skydiving, they seem to be two skills that many people pay very little attention to.

[champu 1]

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I've also been told to barrel roll from tracking jumps but I do not tell people to do that when I lead tracking jumps. I think the purpose of barrel rolling on tracking jumps is when you have a larger group with widely disparate tracking skills. Some people have trouble getting down to the rabbit and are hanging around above the formation. Some people fall out and are in an unknown location.

And this is something that tracking dive organizers can really help out with too. I have to admit a few years back I was guilty of, "the more the merrier" syndrome when leading tracking dives, but now if there's any question about skill I'll suggest breaking up into two groups and finding a second leader.

I've found that groups of four or five work pretty well, and that's as many as usually end up nice and close on unlimited-way tracking dives anyway. Better to have the same fun without the stress of worrying about all the other land-mines scattered everywhere.

[danielcroft 2]

For sure, I generally keep my jumps down to 4 or 5 max too and do my best to keep everyone in at the expense of actually tracking. The alternative is, in the event of one person being particularly steep, is basically ditch them and get everyone a long way away. The most important thing is planning (as you said) and having a break off plan that accounts for people who aren't with the formation at break off is critical. Tracking jump or not, planning is vital.

[beowulf 1]

Part of the predive organizing for tracking dives is drawing out what to do if you can't stay with the formation. I haven't done many tracking dives lately, so just off hand anyone that can't keep up should do their best to keep the formation in front of them and watch for break off and turn and track 180 from the formation also open at the proper altitude.

Making sure you have the correct plan for tracking dives is critical so you don't track over or near other groups.

I agree that keeping the tracking dive smaller and having people with similar skill levels will make the dive safer.

[brettski74 0]

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On big way jumps where it is agreed (or goes without saying) that no one is to barrel roll is one thing. But when talking about other jumps such as speed stars and large tracking dives it is not unlikely that some will not make it down to the base or lead tracker and end up above other jumpers at break off.

None of what you have said has addressed any of the problems introduced by the barrel roll, specifically:

compromised track, which in turn compromises how far you get away from the people you know are there

compromised heading control, so you no longer tracking straight away from the centre of the formation

steepness of break off, since you're not really tracking when you roll and you end up far lower than the others who are tracking as they should be

the ineffectiveness of scanning the sky in about a quarter second while the entire world is rushing through your field of view

There are good reasons why most load organizers and more experienced formation skydivers advocate against any kind of barrel roll at break off. They apply regardless of the context. If you need to get away from everyone and find clear air to deploy, the best way to do that is to track, straight, flat and on your belly the whole time. Your enthusiasm is great, but we've already done this experiment a thousand times. We've seen the results.

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On larger speed stars again it is not uncommon to have a straggler above you at break off. In this case since you are tracking away from a 'base' it may make more sense to use the look over your shoulder as you track away method.

As for the straggler, again, the break off plan is the same. Everyone breaks off at the planned altitude. Plan the dive. Dive the plan. If you're low, you do your best to stay with the formation until break off and then you break off with the first wave (also the only wave for the majority of skydives). The same applies if you're high, although that is rarely a major problem. People who are high are usually fairly close and have good visibility of the break off to be able to work down into it. If they're not close, everyone will be long gone by the time they reach break off altitude.

As for this talk of looking over your shoulder while tracking, that will also compromise your track. You should be able to see most people behind and beside you while keeping your head down, which also gives you a more effective track and makes you less likely to be below anyone. Look over your shoulder as you start your flare at the end of the track and just prior to the wave off and pull.

[danielcroft 2]

Usual break off in tracking jumps is to fan out, people at the back turn 180, people fan out from the rabbit who keeps going straight, flipping to belly and max track. Generally speaking (in my limited experience) the people right with the rabbit are more experienced and as such tend to track better and understand the concept of fanning out.

[JohnDeere 0]

One i like adding into track dives (if the spot allows) is if you are not with the group by 6k - 7k then stop tracking. This is very important if you have a big tracking group. So that the people that are with the group and have to track back at break off time will not encounter the ones that fell out of the dive.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[beowulf 1]

Right, I was only describing what to do if you can't keep up with the group.

[ridestrong 1]

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None of what you have said has addressed any of the problems introduced by the barrel roll, specifically:

compromised track, which in turn compromises how far you get away from the people you know are there

compromised heading control, so you no longer tracking straight away from the centre of the formation

steepness of break off, since you're not really tracking when you roll and you end up far lower than the others who are tracking as they should be

the ineffectiveness of scanning the sky in about a quarter second while the entire world is rushing through your field of view

I have seen plenty of people perform barrel rolls just for fun during tracking dives: without losing altitude, without losing tracking speed/distance, and without losing heading... it's actually not that difficult after some practice. I'm no skygod and don't have any mad skills, just saying it can be done.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[champu 1]

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I have seen plenty of people perform barrel rolls just for fun during tracking dives: without losing altitude, without losing tracking speed/distance, and without losing heading... it's actually not that difficult after some practice. I'm no skygod and don't have any mad skills, just saying it can be done.

This relates back to a point that was raised earlier, tracking on tracking dives is not tracking like you should be after break-off. Most tracking dives (when I'm not leading) I'm usually flying in a body position that more closely resembles a head down jump than it does tracking as I would to get away from others at break-off.

[billvon 2,396]

>I have seen plenty of people perform barrel rolls just for fun during tracking
>dives: without losing altitude, without losing tracking speed/distance, and
>without losing heading.

Right. But the priority on a tracking dive is relative work; the priority on breakoff is safe separation. You can easily maintain your same fallrate while barrel rolling during a tracking dive, since the fallrates are set with RW in mind. During a maximum-forward-speed minimum-fallrate breakoff track, you can't.

(and again that doesn't mean that it can't be done, just that it has to be planned for, and extra time/altitude alloted.)

[ridestrong 1]

duly noted..

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[diablopilot 2]

You should listen more.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[brettski74 0]

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I have seen plenty of people perform barrel rolls just for fun during tracking dives: without losing altitude, without losing tracking speed/distance, and without losing heading... it's actually not that difficult after some practice. I'm no skygod and don't have any mad skills, just saying it can be done.

There is a big difference between tracking for fun on a tracking dive and tracking away at break off. In a tracking dive, I'm never in anything even approaching a max track. This is by design, since almost nobody would be able to form up if everyone was max tracking.

At break off, you're aim is to put as much distance between you and everyone else as possible in a short space of time. I've seen people roll while tracking several times during break offs. Every time, their track is significantly shorter and steeper than those around them and they end up well below everyone else in a short space of time. A good flat track requires a body position that simply cannot be maintained throughout a roll. At best, you can maybe end up with something approximating a half-delta/half-track body position. You'll still have some forward drive, but you'll be going down a lot more than you'll be going forward, which is not what you want at break off. Meanwhile the people tracking properly are floating up and off into the sunset far ahead of you.

As billvon said, if you've planned for extra maneauvres in the dive and allowed altitude as appropriate, there's nothing wrong with rolling in a track, but since most dives are mostly about playing with your sky friends as opposed to solo shenanigans when you're supposed to be saving your life, a barrel has no place in a typical break off plan.

[monkycndo 0]

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One i like adding into track dives (if the spot allows) is if you are not with the group by 6k - 7k then stop tracking. This is very important if you have a big tracking group. So that the people that are with the group and have to track back at break off time will not encounter the ones that fell out of the dive.

Turning 180 degrees at the end of a tracking dive should NEVER be done. Even though you think you are the tail of the group, you might not be. If someone behind you is still heading in the original direction and you turn back at them, the closing speed will be deadly if there is a collision. If you believe you are at the tail end of the group, just slow your forward speed to create horizontal separation and sink out. Once you get to deployment altitude, wave off like hell and deploy.

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[burtonjm 0]

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One i like adding into track dives (if the spot allows) is if you are not with the group by 6k - 7k then stop tracking. This is very important if you have a big tracking group. So that the people that are with the group and have to track back at break off time will not encounter the ones that fell out of the dive.

Turning 180 degrees at the end of a tracking dive should NEVER be done. Even though you think you are the tail of the group, you might not be. If someone behind you is still heading in the original direction and you turn back at them, the closing speed will be deadly if there is a collision. If you believe you are at the tail end of the group, just slow your forward speed to create horizontal separation and sink out. Once you get to deployment altitude, wave off like hell and deploy.

I was going to mention that but you beat me to it. What I did on my first few tracking dives since I sunk out and was behind everybody was keep tracking til breakoff and then carve a 90 in my track, trying to keep an eye on everyone else and where they were going.

This shit, right here, is OK

[danielcroft 2]

In groups of 4 or 5 people I think it's relatively easy to work out how many people are in front of you and if you're last. Yes, people make mistakes but that argument could be used to refute every dive plan ever.

[monkycndo 0]

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In groups of 4 or 5 people I think it's relatively easy to work out how many people are in front of you and if you're last. Yes, people make mistakes but that argument could be used to refute every dive plan ever.

Agreed, mistakes are made, but if there are only 4-5 involved, there should be no reason what so ever to have to turn 180 to create enough separation. If the formation is large enough that you can't maintain awareness of the others, then a well defined break off plan should be part of the dirt dive. That should include proper instruction for those that sink out/can't keep up with the rabbit. But it should never be to turn 180 degrees.

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[JohnDeere 0]

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One i like adding into track dives (if the spot allows) is if you are not with the group by 6k - 7k then stop tracking. This is very important if you have a big tracking group. So that the people that are with the group and have to track back at break off time will not encounter the ones that fell out of the dive.

Turning 180 degrees at the end of a tracking dive should NEVER be done. Even though you think you are the tail of the group, you might not be. If someone behind you is still heading in the original direction and you turn back at them, the closing speed will be deadly if there is a collision. If you believe you are at the tail end of the group, just slow your forward speed to create horizontal separation and sink out. Once you get to deployment altitude, wave off like hell and deploy.

So on a 12-20 way track group you want all them to track forward? Good luck with that! I hope they all use there 9 deg of separation well! I clearly said that people should not be going after the dive if they are out at a certain point.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[JohnDeere 0]

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but if there are only 4-5 involved, there should be no reason what so ever to have to turn 180 to create enough separation.

Who said such a thing?

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[billvon 2,396]

>So on a 12-20 way track group you want all them to track forward?

?? No; they just shouldn't track _backwards_. There are a great many directions you can choose other than backwards.

[kallend 1,623]

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One i like adding into track dives (if the spot allows) is if you are not with the group by 6k - 7k then stop tracking. This is very important if you have a big tracking group. So that the people that are with the group and have to track back at break off time will not encounter the ones that fell out of the dive.

Turning 180 degrees at the end of a tracking dive should NEVER be done. Even though you think you are the tail of the group, you might not be. If someone behind you is still heading in the original direction and you turn back at them, the closing speed will be deadly if there is a collision. If you believe you are at the tail end of the group, just slow your forward speed to create horizontal separation and sink out. Once you get to deployment altitude, wave off like hell and deploy.

So on a 12-20 way track group you want all them to track forward? Good luck with that! I hope they all use there 9 deg of separation well! I clearly said that people should not be going after the dive if they are out at a certain point.

There's another 90 degrees between having completely eliminated your forward component and turning 180 degrees.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnDeere 0]

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>So on a 12-20 way track group you want all them to track forward?

?? No; they just shouldn't track _backwards_. There are a great many directions you can choose other than backwards.

You may want to re-read what i typed. I never said "backwards" or 180 deg......i said track back an in the general direction you just came from, of you would fan out (like the front guys do) but more to the outside. Yes i could have spelled it out better for those that like to ASSume but i didnt think it was needed.....

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[strop45 0]

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You may want to re-read what i typed.

Actually you replied to someone who said "Turning 180 degrees at the end of a tracking dive should NEVER be done" by saying "So on a 12-20 way track group you want all them to track forward". It looks like you might need to reread what was written.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein