EVERYONE should barrel roll.

[ridestrong 1]

Ok, I don't believe everyone should barrel roll all the time. The title was more of a 'draw-in' statement. However it seems as though an efficient barrel roll can serve a beneficial purpose on any jump, whether it's just a two way or a big way.

For example, we all know that a jumper can inadvertently enter another group of jumpers airspace, where those jumpers were not intending on checking their backs before pulling.

There seems to be a number of people here who are 'anti barrel roll'. Just wanted to dedicate (or reopen) a thread to discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the barrel roll.

I find on the jumps where I don't barrel roll, I feel like I am ignoring the airspace above me, even if I 'know' no one should be there.

ETA: Post intended to discuss barrel roll at pull time.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Zlew 0]

you mean a roll before you pull, or just as a general skill?

If you mean at pull time... i will be one of those who doesn't fall into the "everyone" category.

[Jbag 0]

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Ok, I don't believe everyone should barrel roll all the time. The title was more of a 'draw-in' statement. However it seems as though an efficient barrel roll can serve a beneficial purpose on any jump, whether it's just a two way or a big way.

For example, we all know that a jumper can inadvertently enter another group of jumpers airspace, where those jumpers were not intending on checking their backs before pulling.

There seems to be a number of people here who are 'anti barrel roll'. Just wanted to dedicate (or reopen) a thread to discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the barrel roll.

I find on the jumps where I don't barrel roll, I feel like I am ignoring the airspace above me, even if I 'know' no one should be there.

ETA: Post intended to discuss barrel roll at pull time.

sure dude, as soon as you go jump with someone that when they barrell roll changes direction and doesnt know it, let me know if you still think the same thing.

IHYD

[davelepka 4]

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I find on the jumps where I don't barrel roll, I feel like I am ignoring the airspace above me, even if I 'know' no one should be there

An actual barrel role will just give you a glimpse of what's above you. The speed at which you rotate, and need to 'lead' the roll with your head really cuts into your 'useful' time scanning your overhead airspace.

A full-stop transition to back tracking, with a pause to check your airspace, follwed by a transition back to belly tracking would be far more 'useful' in terms of scannig your airspace.

Either of those two manuvers require you to have 100% accuracy with maintaining your heading and the angle of your track. If you sacrifice either one, you're solving one problem, and making bigger ones. Not to mention the fact that you cannot see where you are going (like into an open canopy) while you are engaged in such manuvers.

A far simpler, and more reliable method would be to begin your track on your belly looking where you are going. Take a few seconds to scan the area in front of and below you. Once that is clear, look over one shoulder, and take a few seconds to check that area. Return to looking out and down, clear that zone one more time, and then check over the other shoulder. By this time you should be at the end of your track, where you can flare out and wave off, all while making the final check in front of you.

It provides you three scans of the area in front and below, two scans overhead, and an easy and reliable plan to maintain both the heading and angle of your track.

Or just be a rockstar and barrel roll.

[ridestrong 1]

Well put.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[dragon2 0]

We've been over this again aind again

If you barrel roll, I for one will not film you anymore, most if not all teams will not jump with you and you will get kicked out of just about every big way you attend...

If you want to barrel roll, better go jump by yourself.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[SStewart 13]

EVERYONE? Are you kidding me?

The time wasted would be better spent tracking.

Vertical and horizontal separation is what you are seeking, barrel rolls even when done right might give you some of that but not as much as you could get.

I am sure you mean well but this is another example of bad advise on the internet.

Onward and Upward!

[gimpboogie 0]

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Ok, I don't believe everyone should barrel roll all the time. ...
...
ETA: Post intended to discuss barrel roll at pull time.

sure dude, as soon as you go jump with someone that when they barrell roll changes direction and doesnt know it, let me know if you still think the same thing.

AGREED, *caveat-whqat do I kow with such low jump #'s & low yrs in the sport....*

yes EVERYONE should KNOW HOW TO barell roll, as long as it is considered a useful skill, and necessary for licensing purposes in your country (like in Canada it is necessary for the A license to do a series which includes a barrel roll)

ALSO everyone should be AWARE of their 'time and place in space' at all timesI 'pull time' or not,

as for combining the barrel roll into ANY aspect of the deployment sequence, (as a 'ave off', altitude and surounding areaa...
YET, i agree with jbag in 'try it yourself' with several others in a 4, 8 way and see how well it worked for you in a group ....
sure before doing it, and encountering some of the 'not so great' sides to this manouver at deployment time,
it sous in theory like a great idea (like lots of things do-initially- you ask a coach-'what would happen if i...'
questions.

good topic to open up for discussion [/url]\p o occasion for it[url]

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[Will_Evo 0]

Not to be a sarcastic asshole, but are you all pulling in a track? I mean we are not talking about a barrel roll during the track, we are talking about rotating over after the track while you are in 'belly to earth' right before pull time. This is especially important in FF jumps where experience levels are varied, a back track is even more useful. I don't always barrel roll, but if I am on more than a 3 way, you can guarantee it, there is no harm in a barrel roll after your track...you've cleared your horizontal distance and are falling straight down. Check above you...might save a life.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[Joellercoaster 6]

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an efficient barrel roll

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[mdrejhon 8]

Thought to ponder:

On a 100-way there are a lot of people tracking very close together, so small direction changes in tracking are dangerous. If you're a part of a very dense breakoff wave, especially in the middle waves, when you pull, you can sometimes have a really good view of a canopy deployment not too far from your airspace, off to the side. Both left and right.

In massive big ways, there are breakoff waves specially designed to minimize the chances of someone pulling above or below you. So more often than not, you have a really good view of your tracking buddy to your left and to your right as you're all fanning out after the tracking-team phase (the first few seconds of your breakoff wave)

(For those not aware:
Breakoff wave: Large big ways, usually beginning at 20-ways and up, have breakoffs at different altitude to gradually shrink the big way in an orderly fashion. There can be two, three, four or even more breakoff waves. The bigger the big way, the more waves. For a 60-way typically, the outside part of the big way breaks off first, then 1000 feet later, the middle part of the big way breaks off, then 1000 feet later, the center base breaks off.
Breakoff team: Usually consists of 2 to 5 people. During a breakoff wave, clusters of people breakoff have to track very close to each other intentionally by levelling with each other (track shallower/steeper as necessary) during the first few seconds to make the tracking start orderly and safer -- then spreading out with your best tracks. You already have a good sense of where your nearest tracking buddies are after the tracking team phase. The best trackers have to actually slow down (for everyone's safety), but only for the first few seconds, to stay in the breakoff team, before finally rocketing off. The worst trackers are quickly caught on video or brought up in concern by adjacent break-off team members who observes a diving person in their team. Breakoffs are now video debrief material, the center videographer being told not to pull until some overhead tracking video is caught. Not always. But way more often now. Discipline of non-safety is quicker this way than other methods...

From things like the world record attempts of the 1970's to 1980's, to the incubation of the Perris Big Way camp where 250-jump wonders can do their first 100-way, to the 2006 World Record of 400 people .... Many organizers have learned that the breakoff-wave and the breakoff-team techniques have resulted more consistently in biggest separation between people at pull time. They 4 or 5 videographers during Perris Big Ways, so they often focus on 1 or 2 breakoff teams at a time, sometimes switching teams and sectors in different jumps. A good breakoff team of 5 looks like a "V" of flying birds, almost close enough to touch each other.

Breakoff teams are typically not necessary (overkill) in single-plane big ways, so are not often practiced at most dropzones, and are not even praticed at even State Record size events (often even when the big way is big enough to warrant it). Breakoff teams are recent cirriculum that is now standard practice in big ways, now having been integrated into the Perris Big Way camps, well known to be the world's best. People who are not familiar with this, need to study this.

[kkeenan 13]

Mr. Ridestrong,

In my opinion, you are completely full of crap with this concept.

Over and over on this site we have to listen to Hundred-Jump Wonders who have discovered that something many people have been doing to successfully complete many jumps is completely wrong and they have a new and better way. Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's better.

I realize, from your previous posts, that you are among the "Old people with experience are full of shit" club, so I don't expect anything from you but poor reception of my comments. That matters little to me. I hope that, if you jump with any group of people, you let them all know your intentions before the jump so that they can all make the decision as to whether to jump with you or not.

People move forward and downward in a track. If everyone looks forward and downward and controls their flight path according to what they see there (low-man rule), things have a history of working out. If you are busy looking up at the sky when someone on a converging path below you pulls, you will be responsible for the resulting conflict.

As I said above, if you carefully explain to all on your group that this is the plan that you, in your 160-jump wisdom, plan to follow, then go for it. Don't be surprised if anyone with an ounce of sense tells you to fuck off.

Kevin Keenan
Florida USA

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[davelepka 4]

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Not to be a sarcastic asshole, but are you all pulling in a track? I mean we are not talking about a barrel roll during the track, we are talking about rotating over after the track while you are in 'belly to earth' right before pull time. This is especially important in FF jumps where experience levels are varied, a back track is even more useful. I don't always barrel roll, but if I am on more than a 3 way, you can guarantee it, there is no harm in a barrel roll after your track...you've cleared your horizontal distance and are falling straight down. Check above you...might save a life.

You could not be more incorrect sir.

First off, the suggestoin here is to barrel roll during the track. It is a manuver that some talented trackers can perform and maintain both heading and track angle, but not many.

Furthermore, your suggestion of completing your track, and then doing a barrel roll is absurd. You have a VERY limited time to track, and you need to use 100% of it to achieve seperation from your group. When you stop with enough time to barrel roll, then get stable and pull, you have squandered a good deal of time you could have spent tracking.

None of this is mentioning the fact that in the midst of a barell roll, your ability to accurately scan your overhead area is very low. The mnauver happens quite quickly, and any attempt you make to slow it down will only further comprimise your safety. You are either sacrificing additional tracking time, or pulling lower, both very bad ideas in every sense of the word.

I'll repeat - break off, establish your heading and ensure the area in front of and below is clear. Maintain your track and glance over one shoulder. Return to checking ahead and below, then check over the other shoulder. Complete your track and return your focus to the area in front and below, flare out of the track, wave off and pull.

Don't make shit up in your own mind, and then force others to live with your 'ideas' by implementing them on group jumps. Your plan and logic for justifying it are both severly flawed. Track as long and as hard as humanly possible while maintaining your pull altitude. Every time, every jump.

[Butters 0]

I'll admit it, when I started skydiving I went back and forth about doing a barrel roll to check the airspace above myself before deploying. However, I've come to the conclusion that you're supposed to be looking for (and avoiding) what is below you, not what is above you ... let the person above you look for (and avoid) you.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jumpwally 0]

again with this foolishness ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[piisfish 135]

or you could have a GoProHD turned upwards, with the LCD screen in front of your eyes

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Psychonaut 0]

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or you could have a GoProHD turned upwards, with the LCD screen in front of your eyes

About that..

Stay high pull low

[Will_Evo 0]

I was not aware we were talking about a barrel roll in a track, so I will abstain from commenting on that.

As far as my post and your reply, who said I was forcing anything on anyone? You got very defensive here, and seem to think I made up the barrel roll all on my own. Quite to the contrary, I was taught by an experienced free flier, the uses of a barrel roll and when to use it. Of course you wouldn't do so on a 15 and up way, but there really is no harm otherwise.

Simply put, there are more ways to check airspace than the way you mentioned, and writing the others off because it's not 'your way' is silly. I track from breakoff(usually 5000ft) to about 3500ft. Immediately after in one smooth movement, go belly to earth and barrel roll(I don't ALWAYS do it but there are times I like to depending how the jump went) which takes about 500 ft, then I pull. Nothing sacrificed, reasonable pull altitude and track time.

But you are right, 100 jump wonders are full of shit and make shit up all the time so nothing they say could hold any value...... Don't forget that jump number is not a reflection of intelligence.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[ridestrong 1]

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We've been over this again aind again

If you barrel roll, I for one will not film you anymore, most if not all teams will not jump with you and you will get kicked out of just about every big way you attend...

If you want to barrel roll, better go jump by yourself.

Then why did you bother to add to the redundancy???

If we didn't reopen some discussions there would be little to talk about in these threads. If you don't like the topic at hand go somewhere else, your not required to reply.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[davelepka 4]

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I track from breakoff(usually 5000ft) to about 3500ft. Immediately after in one smooth movement, go belly to earth and barrel roll(I don't ALWAYS do it but there are times I like to depending how the jump went) which takes about 500 ft, then I pull. Nothing sacrificed, reasonable pull altitude and track time.

You can never have too much altitude on your side, and you can never have too much seperation from other jumpers. Your way is giving up either one of those things because you're spending time (which is altitude) after break off doing something besides tracking or pulling.

By building your checks into your track, you 'mutil-task' and get more seperation and a higher pull altitude without sacrifcing anything. It also gives you time to take a look. It's not what you can catch in a quick roll, you can take a couple seconds have a good look, all the while still tracking.

If you really think about it, what would you do if you saw someone there? You're already stopped tracking, and whistling through pull altitude. Now you either have to start up your track again, or suck it down until the airspace is clear.

If you take a look while you are tracking, you have time to deal with a jumper 'up there' and still get open when you planned. You are already moving with a good deal of momentum, and all it takes is an adjustment to your heading to scoot out from under the guy up there.

The last thing you want to do is wait until you're just about ready to pull to take a look. Plan ahead. Know where you're going and what it looks like before you get there, it's the literal definition of staying 'ahead of the curve'.

[champu 1]

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For example, we all know that a jumper can inadvertently enter another group of jumpers airspace, where those jumpers were not intending on checking their backs before pulling.

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This is especially important in FF jumps where experience levels are varied, a back track is even more useful.

Why don't you learn to spot, stop making zoo dives, and wave off before you pull? Seriously, explaining how you've worked a barrel roll into the end of your break off routine is like saying you've mastered stabbing out of the corner on a low turn.

If you find yourself in a situation with a less than ideal break-off (say... a hybrid funneling right at break-off) a brief glance over your shoulder as you track away from the center of mass is a lot more useful than back flying or barrel rolling. If everyone is tracking away from the center and looking around, everyone can make small adjustments to ensure separation from the one or two people nearest them.

Regardless of whether you're talking about the middle or end of your track, if you barrel roll and see someone what's your plan? Continue tracking while watching them over your shoulder? That's what we're suggesting anyway. Continue tracking and assume they're not above you anymore? Well then why the hell did you look in the first place? Stop tracking and just not pull? How long are you going to keep that up?

[ridestrong 1]

I'm looking for opinions here... I'm sure as shit not trying to give ANYONE advice.

I was hoping for more intelligent answers like the one davelepka gave above (in post #4), but they are proving to be hard to come by.

Maybe the better question would have been: Is there any place for the barrel roll before pull time? I like davelepka's alternative to the barrel roll and plan to implement it. Can any one defend the use of barrel roll anymore for ANY jump or is it just something we should do to learn stability correction in AFF?

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[beowulf 1]

The only time I use a barrel roll is when on head down formation after turning 180 from the center and driving forward away from the formation I transition from head down to back and then barrel roll to my belly and track away from the formation. I don't spend much time on my back. I don't see any need to barrel roll before pull time.

I guess I shouldn't say barrel, instead a half barrel roll would be more accurate.

[rehmwa 2]

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Seriously, explaining how you've worked a barrel roll into the end of your break off routine is like saying you've mastered stabbing out of the corner on a low turn.

I can't add to this comment.

(OP - no barrel rolls, track well, dive the plan, checking over the shoulder at wave off is the plan. If you are with so many idiots, or you are so bad at straight and level tracking, that you are scared and feel a need to barrel roll - then jump in smaller groups until your skills (SkILZ) improve)

I backtrack after HD only to keep my eyes on the group and to slow my deceleration until the pack clears, then half roll to belly and a normal track. RW - belly to earth the entire breakoff and track.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pirana 0]

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I was hoping for more intelligent answers like the one davelepka gave above (in post #4), but they are proving to be hard to come by.

Intelligent answer, and short, is . . . Don't do it!

Sure, a few people added more to it; but the gist is clear; the answer is no.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley