Red or Silver?

[weegegirl 2]

Hi Dave,

Yup. It's all about you! That was a scary one to watch from the ground. I saw the whole thing from below. But I think you handled yourself wonderfully.

A few of us have been talking about this. You have so little time to react, that it's important to know what you are going to do, have a plan, and have practiced it on the ground regularly in case this very thing happens.

For those that posted "repost"..... gear changes, procedures change, though process changes... it NEVER hurts to discuss safety issues again and again. Every incident is different.

Good on you, Dave. Glad you are okay. I was happy to see you getting back in the air right after.

See you out at Orange again soon. Crappy weather this weekend! Bummer.

Cya,
Liz

[livenletfly 0]

that would only happen if your main came out after your reserve has fully inflated and flying forward. if the main came out as soon as the reserve left the container you would still be in line stretch with downward speed over 70-80 mph and the main being pulled by the p/c would go right into the reserve.

>

[tbrown 26]

A pilot chute in tow is such an ugly situation because you can't really say for sure that going either way - red or silver - will save you or kill you. It's a fact that in a lot of these situations the reserve opening will decrease pack tension enough to let the main go as well. It's true that a cutaway main can entangle with a deploying reserve, it's happened and has sometimes killed people. Then the Czech woman who died in Tunisia this winter puller her reserve without a cutaway and went in when both canopies deployed and entangled.

It's a bad bad situation and when it happens it's too late for prevention or a thoughtful debate over what to do next. Whether you cutaway or not, have your plan set in your head and just do it, since going either is a gamble, but you "can't win if you don't play", so just do it.

The best answer is still PREVENTION. Checking for an ink stain on your kill line isn't enough, the ink stain on mine is all faded anyway. LOOK inside your pilot when you pack and make sure the kill line's extended inside your P/C.

Even if you use a packer, USPA recommends you do three things before dropping off your rig in the packers' area: 1.) cock your kill line on your p/c, 2.) set your brakes yourself, and 3.) re-open your slider. None of these have to take more than a minute or two and you've no one to blame but yourself if you can't be bothered. It's YOUR ass...

Besides, you need to pay attention to the condition of your p/c and kill line, even if you always use a packer. If there's anything weird about the kill line, it's too short or won't cock right, or it seems like it's taking too long for your canopy to come out of the bag, DON'T JUMP AGAIN until you've showed your p/c to a rigger. My rigger tells me a p/c will act kinda loopy just a few times before it fails altogether, so you don't get much warning. Don't put it off, have that mother checked out.

And finally, don't let yourself get sloppy with your throw. It's easy to get lazy about it, I've done it myself. Treat the thing like it was a live hand grenade and throw it clear into the next county. A good throw with well maintained equipment should virtually eliminate a p/c in tow from happening.

Of course you can always switch to a pullout system, but they're not foolproof either and can have their own set of problems.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

if the main came out as soon as the reserve left the container you would still be in line stretch with downward speed over 70-80 mph and the main being pulled by the p/c would go right into the reserve.

That will happen whether the cutaway handle is pulled first or not.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,396]

>If you cutaway and then go silver, you are risking getting risers and
>main entangled if they release.

This is unlikely on modern rigs. It was common on older rigs with poor riser covers (older Racers for example) but on a modern rig you won't have risers slapping around the reserve container even if you cut away first.

>If you pull straight silver, and then your main decides to open up,
>well then you have a double out.

That is true. Keep in mind that double deployments are usually landable/manageable.

[councilman24 36]

I made the decision long ago to pull the reserve and it saved my life.

With a PC in tow you are already below pull altitude at terminal velocity. If, like me, you prefer to keep your shoulders level and don't watch the bag leave, then it takes some real amount of time to realize the situation. So, you past pull altitude, going fast, and your going to pull the only handle that won't save your life?

I was doing a demo in February in Michigan in 1987. Low clouds so we did a 2000' exit. Tripped on exit so took a 3 or 4 seconds before throwing out, took 3 or 4 seconds before looking, recognized PC in tow and did what I had decided on the GROUND, pull the reserve. And be ready for the main out. In reality the main did deploy with the reserve but if you add all this up I was getting opening as I went into the top of a tree. IF I had wasted time cuting away I'd be dead.

Yes this is unique because of the low altitude but many people still routinely pull between 2000 and 2500'. In this case it's even worse than mine because your already at terminal. My personal feeling is that you don't have time to waste. And you should FIRST spend time saving your life, then deal with the main. Not deal with the main and THEN save your life.

NOTE: This discussion and decision IGNORES (on purpose) whether there is an AAD that might deploy your reserve if you haven't or not. See Kallend's thread.

In a fatality I investigated as S&TA a jumper with about 80 jumps on a solo went in with out pulling either main PC or reserve ripcord. No AAD on rental rig at this time, years ago. But we never found the cutaway handle. He went through some trees and it may have been pulled by a branch. But, he was trying basic freeflying moves and having stability problems according to his log book. I believe that he had stability problems again, lost track of altitude, realized he was low and initiated emergency procedures that were cutaway and pull reserve. In this case he pulled the only handle that wouldn't save his life and ran out of time. I don't KNOW this is what happened but we never found the cutaway handle so believe it was pulled at some height by the jumper, not the tree.


I have no issue with the alternative decision, to cutaway. This is a personal choice and USPA recognizes this, by publishing both procedures.

I do have some issue with reaching back and trying to pull the pin. Again, I don't believe you have time to waste. At least not on every jump. Of course the real idiot was the instructor who used to teach newbies to roll over, pull in the PC, roll back face to earth and then pull the reserve.

Just my $0.02.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sabr190 0]

"Of course the real idiot was the instructor who used to teach newbies to roll over, pull in the PC, roll back face to earth and then pull the reserve"

You're kidding, right?

Was this guy a "real" instructor or did he just stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[tbrown 26]

I do have some issue with reaching back and trying to pull the pin. Again, I don't believe you have time to waste.

[Kris 0]

I forget who, and I can't remember the thread, but there's someone on this forum who also did a front-loop to grab their PC then fired off their reserve.

Definitely not recommended, but definitely ballsy.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[councilman24 36]

Not kidding! This is what he taught newbies transitioning from RC student rigs to throw out rental rigs. Of course these guy couldn't even DO a barrel roll. Then I set them straight later. This guy thought he was gods gift to manhood and skydiving, cheated on his gorgeous wife, forged my signature on reserve cards, and was a general asshole all around.

He claimed he had a USPA jumpmaster rating from a course ran in South America. I don't think the DZO every really checked up on him and I think we finally found out he didn't. But he JM'd a long time.

As the post above shows, that was the myth/rumor/procedure talked about around the campfire. The above post is another reason I've never advocated pulling the pin by hand. You don't know what is making the PC tow. As stated, twisted belly bands were one of the major causes, then twisted leg straps. If you pull the pin by hand on one of those you've just created a horse shoe malfuntion that you have no hope of clearing. And if you STILL cutaway you have a reverse streamer.

I watched someone I knew back in the early 90's tow a twisted leg strap, pull the pin by hand and dump her round reserve into the horse shoe. She was spinning on her side under the horse shoe. Even when I saw the PC leave I thought it wouldn't open in time. The round snaked through and opened about 150' but she was spinnning so fast she was still ADDING line twists when she landed. ONE advantage of rounds. Borrowed a rig and jumped 2 hours later.

I know that the likely hood of something that wouldn't clear pulling the pin is less these days but it's not zero.

I remember the front loop story but never new if it was true.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[flyangel2 2]

Quote

Skydive on. Break off. Pull. Nothing. Your pilot chute is out, but you have a pilot chute in tow for whatever reason. What do you do? Red or silver?

Been there done that. I went straight for my reserve and that caused my main to come out. The second the main and the reserve's end cells bounced off each other, I checked that the lines of the main were clear and cut it away. Would I do it like that again? I guess it depends on the situation, I had enough altitude and was fast enough to get away with it. I guess it wasn't my time to die.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

Been there done that. I went straight for my reserve and that caused my main to come out. The second the main and the reserve's end cells bounced off each other, I checked that the lines of the main were clear and cut it away. Would I do it like that again? I guess it depends on the situation, I had enough altitude and was fast enough to get away with it. I guess it wasn't my time to die.

I do not see how your completely deployed 2-out situation shows that cutting away would be better. Cutting away from a biplane/side-side runs a serious risk of entangling your main with the reserve. The departing main, including the risers, can grab your slider, or lines and cause big trouble. I would only want to cut away from a 2-out if it was downplaning.

There are a lot of 2-out incidents with no entanglement.

Evaluating the relative importance of all the plus/minus points for the PC in tow scenario is a subjective thing. But the PD/army study leans to not chopping, and so did a decision tree chart that Relative Workshop used to have on their website.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[flyangel2 2]

Well, the main and reserve had enough separation between the two of them for me to feel comfortable cutting the main away.

As I tell any student that has had to deal with any kind of malfunction, and lands safe. "You did something right."

I never tell them, "You should have done this or that."

Till we are in the situation, we don't know how we are going to react.

Edit to add:

Quote

I do not see how your completely deployed 2-out situation shows that cutting away would be better.

I don't think I said it would be better. It's just what I did and walked away from.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[orangemagoo 0]

Quote

So, after a recent malfunction, there has been much talk/thought about the best procedure for certain scenarios.

So, I ask you guys......

Skydive on. Break off. Pull. Nothing. Your pilot chute is out, but you have a pilot chute in tow for whatever reason. What do you do? Red or silver?

If you cutaway and then go silver, you are risking getting risers and main entangled if they release. If you pull straight silver, and then your main decides to open up, well then you have a double out.

I think there are potential "issues" with either scenario. If it were me, I think if I had a pilot chute out at all, I would cut it away. But now I wonder.

Three newbie questions:

1. I'm still pulling around 5,000-4,500 feet...so, if I had a PC in tow, do I have time to "elbow" the container or try to grab the bridle once? Somebody at the DZ mentioned that works sometimes, but I can't imagine spending more than about two seconds on it.

2. Since I have an RSL, and I'm pulling at a respectable altitude, wouldn't it make sense for me to go to red first to avoid a two-out?

3. What is this stuff about grabbing the PC before pulling silver? Won't the reduced pressure on the container release the main pin anyway? I'm confused...

Magoo

[weegegirl 2]

Simple answer.... talk to your instructor. Good questions. Just better answered by your instructor. NEVER take ANY advice from online.
Cya at the dz!!

• Quote

[NWPoul 1]

Quote

...NEVER take ANY advice from online.

Some advise's from here helps, espetially if they were discussed with instructor

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[LuvToFly 0]

Most of these suggested actions are best-served by pulling at a higher altitude. The 2,000 - 2,500' minimum guidelines are way too low in my view.

In a mal, time is your friend. Open higher - because you should ALWAYS be anticipating a mal. Act like it IS going to happen as it probably will at one time or the other- and be skilled and drilled at dealing with each scenario. Then, open high enough to do something about it. There are most-times no excuses for opening too low when we're getting out at 14K. Even your basic 5K hop and pop affords plenty of time to open at a safer decision point.

Let's be honest. People in general spend far more time learning to dirt dive than they do practicing emergency procedures. Even further, a lot of folks become experts at visualization in turning those points, and never stop to take the same amount of mental energy and exercise in visualizing a dozen or so possible scenarios and the best ways to respond to each, rehearsed, move by move so that it is instinctive. Openly rehearsing for emergencies has a very low cool-factor - you pretty much only ever see a student doing so. So how good can one really be?

If you have time, and are rehearsed, there is a lot you can try. If you don't have time, the best decision may not be available to you - Motto: Let's not push those opening altitudes too low -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[nicknitro71 0]

First I would reach back and pull the bridle.

If that does not work or I cannot find it right away, one hand on the red, one on the sliver and pull both at the same time.

This is the way I see it: if nothing is out go for the silver. If something is out either red and then sliver or like in this case both at the same time.

This is what I would do, it does not make it right, of course.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Ron 7]

Quote

A) If your main hasn't deployed it's not likely to after your reserve deploys

Not true...Several times the main opens once the reserve fires.

I teach that if you have ANYTHING out pull both. UNLESS you are below the hard deck then just stop the damn skydive....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rsibbald 0]

How much force does a standard sized pilot chute exert on the bridle at terminal velocity?

Anyone want to get a tension-meter and drive down the motorway to find out?

How much force do you think you can put on the bridle with your arm twisting behind your back and pulling upwards away from your body?

I'm guessing that manual intervention is negligible when compared with the overall PC drag force.....

[Ron 7]

Quote

1. I'm still pulling around 5,000-4,500 feet...so, if I had a PC in tow, do I have time to "elbow" the container or try to grab the bridle once? Somebody at the DZ mentioned that works sometimes, but I can't imagine spending more than about two seconds on it.

Do you have any idea how much force a PC has? No offense, but I doubt in most cases you could put enough force to do anything. Plus, most PC in tows are due to a routing error of the bridle. No amount of force will fix that.

Get a PC and drive down the road. By 10 MPH I doubt you will be able to hold the PC.

Quote

2. Since I have an RSL, and I'm pulling at a respectable altitude, wouldn't it make sense for me to go to red first to avoid a two-out?

The RSL does not matter in this case (Unless you have an old RSL system like the old racer).

The PC in tow mal is a bad mal. There are three ways to deal with it.

1. Do nothing an die...Most don't like this one

2. Pull the cutaway and reserve.

3. Pull just the reserve.

#1 is not an option.
#2 and #3 have both worked at times and both killed in other cases. A PC in town is kinda a crap shoot.

Quote

3. What is this stuff about grabbing the PC before pulling silver? Won't the reduced pressure on the container release the main pin anyway? I'm confused...

Its stupid is what it is. Many folks have died trying shit like this.

What I teach is:
If ANYTHING is out...Cut away first. UNLESS you are at your hard deck. If you are at your hard deck...STOP THE FREAKING SKYDIVE (Pull silver) and deal with the stuff as best you can.

The one thing you must do is stop the skydive...With a PC in tow, the best thing to do is SOMETHING.

Cutaway, don't cut away.....Its a crap shoot.

DO SOMETHING NOW. STOP THE SKYDIVE

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nicknitro71 0]

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How much force does a standard sized pilot chute exert on the bridle at terminal velocity?

My 28" pulls 160 LBS

Quote

How much force do you think you can put on the bridle with your arm twisting behind your back and pulling upwards away from your body?

Probably 30 LBS

If I drag a PC chances are I was too dumb to cock it, too dumb to check the kill line length, or even too dumb to check the condition of my PC.

I know I won't have a PC in tow if I cocked it, if the kill like is the proper lenght, and the damn thing just looks right.

By the way, I take an anal care of my rig, especially the PC, and I triple check that it is cocked every time. One malfunction I don't want to have is a PC in tow.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[NWPoul 1]

Quote

Do you have any idea how much force a PC has? No offense, but I doubt in most cases you could put enough force to do anything. Plus, most PC in tows are due to a routing error of the bridle. No amount of force will fix that.

But it's works sometimes:)
PC also can be uncocked or be too small and didn't provide enough force and in this case even hit the bridle can help pin to get out...

Quote

The PC in tow mal is a bad mal. There are three ways to deal with it.

1. Do nothing an die...Most don't like this one

2. Pull the cutaway and reserve.

3. Pull just the reserve.

#1 is not an option.
#2 and #3 have both worked at times and both killed in other cases. A PC in town is kinda a crap shoot.

If you pull out at proper altitude way not to try to recognize and fix mal for 1-2 sec?

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[Frenchy68 0]

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If you pull out at proper altitude way not to try to recognize and fix mal for 1-2 sec?

In my extremely limited experience: it takes more than 2 secs (especially for newbies like me) to recognize, process, decide, and act upon, a malfunction, especially at terminal. It is also my (once again extremely) limited experience that doing the above usually goes hand in hand with loss of altitude awareness. That's why I hope I would go for silver right away. Ask me again when I have few thousands more jumps. Maybe I will think differently. Maybe not.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[NWPoul 1]

Quote

In my extremely limited experience: it takes more than 2 secs (especially for newbies like me) to recognize, process, decide, and act upon, a malfunction, especially at terminal. It is also my (once again extremely) limited experience that doing the above usually goes hand in hand with loss of altitude awareness. That's why I hope I would go for silver right away. Ask me again when I have few thousands more jumps. Maybe I will think differently. Maybe not.

Thats the point, if near to zero expirience person like me did it (from second attempt
All above is IMHO and of course I not think that I sure will be able to fix even the same reasoned mal, so I prefer to prevent it

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?