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Hooknswoop

Break Off and Tracking

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-Don’t miss break off altitude. If you do, you can either track less and deploy closer to other jumpers (bad), or track to get sufficient separation and pull low (bad).

-Track 180-degrees from the center of the formation.
Tracking is a survival skill. Learn to flat track. Speed is not important in tracking. The relative angle to the ground is what is important. The more horizontal distance you cover for the least amount of altitude lost is what creates the maximum separation from other jumpers. Always strive to improve your tracking, the better you can track, the safer you are.

-The lower jumper has the right of way. Therefore, it is incumbent on you to ensure you are not above someone. A glance over your shoulder is OK, but you should be primarily looking where you are going and ensuring there is no one below you. At 110+ mph, spotting someone below you in the ground clutter is difficult. Taking your focus off where you are going to perform a barrel roll takes too much time away from your primary focus or is so quick you cannot effectively scan the airspace above. There is the added risk of not maintaining a heading during the tracking barrel roll.

-If you aren’t tracking because you are clear of all the other jumper in the air, pull. If you are not clear, keep tracking to get clear. Getting clear and then stopping your track to wait for pull altitude is wasting valuable altitude.

-Perform a big wave off on every skydive. Our eyes naturally are attracted to movement. A big wave off while slowing down from the track can make you much easier for another jumper above you to spot.

Derek V

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Hooknswoop

... but you should be primarily looking where you are going and ensuring there is no one below you. At 110+ mph, spotting someone below you in the ground clutter is difficult...

Derek V



One of the reasons that bright and "unnatural" colors and vivid patterns on jumpsuits and rigs are a good thing.

I've "lost" people who were wearing black very easily. Yet the ones in bright orange, yellow, neon purple, ect were pretty easy to spot.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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If you aren’t tracking because you are clear of all the other jumper in the air, pull. If you are not clear, keep tracking to get clear. Getting clear and then stopping your track to wait for pull altitude is wasting valuable altitude.


Agreed. And I will add that if you stop tracking at some point because you are worried about running into the next group - leave more time next time. There's generally no good reason to stop tracking other than visible traffic (or special cases, like tracking rules for bigways.)

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Something worth mentioning - when it's time to break off, just break the hell off and GO...quickly!

Every second a jumper spends not turning and burning is a second on the other end of the track - when horizontal speed is greatest - that separation is not being gained. I see jumpers do everything from sit in position and watch others leave or stare at their altimeters to look around and wave their arms signalling the break off to others. Those precious seconds are lost and the hundreds of feet those seconds could buy in the final seconds of a solid track are lost as well.

I teach young jumpers that regardless of what triggers their recognition that the break off altitude has arrived, the best thing they can do is simply turn and go. Turn and go like they're already late. Turn and go with the sense of urgency in deserves. Don't wave goodbye, don't wait to see others leave. Just go.

Often the jumper who achieves the greatest separation is the one who leaves first. ;)

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

Something worth mentioning - when it's time to break off, just break the hell off and GO...quickly!

Every second a jumper spends not turning and burning is a second on the other end of the track - when horizontal speed is greatest - that separation is not being gained. I see jumpers do everything from sit in position and watch others leave or stare at their altimeters to look around and wave their arms signalling the break off to others. Those precious seconds are lost and the hundreds of feet those seconds could buy in the final seconds of a solid track are lost as well.

I teach young jumpers that regardless of what triggers their recognition that the break off altitude has arrived, the best thing they can do is simply turn and go. Turn and go like they're already late. Turn and go with the sense of urgency in deserves. Don't wave goodbye, don't wait to see others leave. Just go.

Often the jumper who achieves the greatest separation is the one who leaves first. ;)



When I was A licensed I was playing with my Flysight and tracking speed/distances. Looking at the data, my speed was a result of time in the track, so being able to track for 7 seconds verses 4 seconds was more than doubled the distance. That totally supports your statement that you need to get to it right away.

http://pyrodan.privatedata.com/skydive/tracking/tracking-data-sept-22.pdf
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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I never understood what barrel rolling at the end of a track accomplished. You arent doing anything but wasting valuable time in your track. If you spot someone right on top you of, its too late anyway. What are you going to do? Burn it low and deploy? (bad)

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chips26

I never understood what barrel rolling at the end of a track accomplished. You arent doing anything but wasting valuable time in your track. If you spot someone right on top you of, its too late anyway. What are you going to do? Burn it low and deploy? (bad)



I'm not responding as in any way an expert, but just also interested in this question, coming from a different viewpoint.

Is it not better to be a little bit lower than you'd planned but clear of the person above you than deploying into them? Opening low with the risk of a low mal compared to having someone hit you at a relative speed of 70mph plus is an unpleasant choice to make, but I'd pick the first one.

For me, the way to avoid either of these scenarios is to plan break off and deployment high enough that going 500 feet low isn't a disaster i.e. aiming to be under canopy closer to 3k than 2k. Assuming you give yourself this sort of height to play with, the scenario in which you barrel roll, see someone above you and then turn 45 degrees and track as hard as you can for a couple of seconds before deploying with your eyes on swivels has it's place. Granted if you're in this position you're having a bad day.

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Assuming you give yourself this sort of height to play with, the scenario in which you barrel roll, see someone above you and then turn 45 degrees and track as hard as you can for a couple of seconds before deploying with your eyes on swivels has it's place. Granted if you're in this position you're having a bad day.



What you are the higher jumper? You are barrel rolling looking above you, only to hit the jumper below you because you are not looking where you are going. I have seen videos of extremely close calls following this logic.

No solution or "rules of the road" is perfect. Lower jumper has the right away and waving off work very well. The barrel roll takes away from this.

Derek V

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Hooknswoop

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Assuming you give yourself this sort of height to play with, the scenario in which you barrel roll, see someone above you and then turn 45 degrees and track as hard as you can for a couple of seconds before deploying with your eyes on swivels has it's place. Granted if you're in this position you're having a bad day.



What you are the higher jumper? You are barrel rolling looking above you, only to hit the jumper below you because you are not looking where you are going. I have seen videos of extremely close calls following this logic.

No solution or "rules of the road" is perfect. Lower jumper has the right away and waving off work very well. The barrel roll takes away from this.

Derek V



Yeah I see that. And I agree about keeping things as simple as possible - just track looking forward and below and pull if you see someone below you.

I think also there may be a difference between what is logical in a perfect world and what works in the messiness that the bottom of a jump often is. For example - logic suggests to me that you would only barrel roll once you've checked the sky below you and have seen that it is clear - in the scenario of the higher jumper you mention I'd just pull once I saw someone below me - instinct tells me the chances of another jumper being above me are less than the lower jumper deploying into me. Of course the flaw in this is that you can never be 100% sure you have scanned the sky below you fully. So in the real world perhaps that logic doesn't work. But then that's true whether or not you have barrel-rolled. So then perhaps its more about using the time to get more horizontal separation and the barrel-roll takes away from that.

Interestingly, though, the closest call I know of when tracking was on an FF jump - one person below tracking on his back waiting for the person above to pull - person above didn't react so person below was forced low to avoid deploying into the person above. This is an entirely anecdotal story and therefore of pretty limited value to a general discussion but in that situation knowing what is above you was vital.

I wonder if there is a difference between flat and FF here because of a higher likelihood of different levels at break off?

Edited to add: Hooknswoop my original post was more directed at the question 'what if you barrel roll and see someone above you' than your original 'don't barrel roll' post. I guess my instinct would be to track as hard as possible for as long as I have height for, rather than to do a barrel roll and waste time. But if I *did* barrel roll and see someone above me or if (as is more likely) I was tracking on my back and saw someone above me, I'd prefer to pull a little lower and get clear than to deploy anyway. But I am still relatively new to all this so am replying mostly to have more experienced people challenge my thinking.

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maxhogg

***Is it not better to be a little bit lower than you'd planned but....



Absolutely not.

It is never better to be lower than you expected. It may be the lesser of two evils when it's necessary, but it is never good.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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what if you barrel roll and see someone above you'



Big wave off to get their attention and hope they are not barreling rolling to look above that and are doing their job and loooking where they are going or continue to track out from under them if they have stopped. If they have stopped they should be pulling quickly thereafter.

If everyone does their job, the system works.

Derek V

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in the scenario of the higher jumper you mention I'd just pull once I saw someone below me - instinct tells me the chances of another jumper being above me are less than the lower jumper deploying into me.

If you really follow this strategy, you will deploy higher than agreed upon too often. This could create very unfortunate surprises for your jump partners B| This is not getting into the question of whether you really want to snivel next to another canopy without control over the situation or just turn a couple degrees, track away and deploy at normal altitude.

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though, the closest call I know of when tracking was on an FF jump - one person below tracking on his back waiting for the person above to pull - person above didn't react so person below was forced low to avoid deploying into the person above.

Actually, quite the same for me, a friend of mine was grounded for a month following a low pull after a similar incident. He described this as "two persons trying to move past one another constantly trying to guess the direction the other one will choose, I turn right, he turns right, I turn left, he turns left". I don't see this happening should the low person look below him unknowingly and just follow a straight path, wave off and deploy. The higher one could then easily avoid him and deploy at normal altitude.

It's like pedestrians walking into the bicycle track in the park, hesitating and then jumping under the wheels confused. I prefer overtaking them from behind, this way they don't see me and have no time to react inadequately.

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maxhogg

.

...I wonder if there is a difference between flat and FF here because of a higher likelihood of different levels at break off?...



Yes. Lots.

FF breaks off much higher for starters. Higher speed is one part of it.
My understanding (and I don't FF, so I could be wrong on this) is that they transition from vertical to back, check the air above, then roll to their belly to finish the track, clear below, flare out and pull.

Some of the problems with "barrel rolling during a track to clear the air above" are:

Few people can barrel roll in a track and stay on heading.

You can't really see anything while rolling. You would have to flip to your back, stay there for a few seconds, then flip back to your front. That takes up a lot of time.

You lose altitude during the roll. That takes away from the distance you could potentially track (distance from everyone else is the main priority, right?).

This comes up every so often. It seems like a good idea.

But look at the experience level of the people who are saying "don't do this" and think about it. Then read my sigline and think about how they lasted long enough to be that experienced.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Thanks everyone - what an awesome set of knowledge and experience in this thread. Lots of good discussions but on the central point I am convinced by the experience level of those arguing against a barrel roll.

Unkulunkulu what you say has interesting implications for ff. In the UK an essential part of my ff coaching was learning to track away on my back and only transition onto my front once I'd scanned the sky above me to check that it is clear. Are you saying you don't think that's the right thing to do?

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maxhogg

Thanks everyone - what an awesome set of knowledge and experience in this thread. Lots of good discussions but on the central point I am convinced by the experience level of those arguing against a barrel roll.

Unkulunkulu what you say has interesting implications for ff. In the UK an essential part of my ff coaching was learning to track away on my back and only transition onto my front once I'd scanned the sky above me to check that it is clear. Are you saying you don't think that's the right thing to do?



Bolding mine.

The correct thing to do on a FF jump and the correct thing to do on a belly (RW or FS) jump are two very different things.

And in the description above, it's really not a barrel roll.

It's backflying at the beginning, then flipping over (1/2 roll) to the belly for proper tracking.

As I noted in my previous post, that's the correct thing to do for a FF jump (at least that's what I thought). There are good reasons to do it that way. One of those reasons is the likelyhood for significant vertical separation during breakoff, as different people lose vertical speed differently, and there's a lot more speed to lose during that breakoff.

In a properly done belly jump, everyone is at the same level, going about the same speed at breakoff. That speed doesn't change a whole lot, so the chances for big "level differences" is nowhere near what it is on a FF jump.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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maxhogg

In the UK an essential part of my ff coaching was learning to track away on my back and only transition onto my front once I'd scanned the sky above me to check that it is clear. Are you saying you don't think that's the right thing to do?

I think that the problem is with the definition of "clear".
Disclaimer: I'm not that experienced in FF, have only been to my first (duh) 30way camp recently and mostly have been jumping in smaller groups (4-6 ways) before that. So I'm not a source of advice, I just communicate my understanding which is subject to critique and corrections from anyone.

For me the story goes:
1. Belly jumps: you turn 180 degrees and track away. You don't do barrel rolls not only before pulling (the topic we mainly discuss here) but you don't barrel roll before turning away either! A point that will become important in my reasoning below.
2. FF jumps: you track on your back first. Why? I understand this is because when you transition from vertical to horizontal you can too easily create a very big speed difference and someone who is possibly high just before breakoff will have little chance of avoiding collision (i.e. giving the right-of-way to the lower person). That's why we have this exception to the lower person having the right of way here.
3. Once you made sure you will not hit anyone above you by transitioning to flocking/tracking from vertical you fullfilled your duty as the lower person starting to track away and can from there on transition on your belly, continue tracking, and watching for lower jumpers.

So my understanding of "clear" in this case is "clear to safely start fast tracking". At the end of the track we're interested in "clear to wave off and pull" and this could be achieved by the good old low person having the right of way rule and procedures.

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Correct. From Head Down, you turn 180-degrees from the center and transition to a back track. This allows you to see the airspace you are going through before flying through it. Then immediately half barrel roll to your belly and track. The back phase is just long enough to clear the airspace you are flying through.

Derek V

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Just putting in my 2 cents. I wouldn't suggest doing the barrel roll. Closing speeds on someone deploying in front of you is too much. Just keep your eyes on who is in your group, as in count them (not literally all of them but the ones that you know are tracking near you). I keep track of those guys and then I know my airspace is clear. I don't have to bother barrel rolling because I know where they are. Now thats not to say that another group might have tracked too far and into your group, which can and has happened. I've seen it from above next to me once happen to my friend. He simply adjusted his track. Mind you pulling in that scenario would have probably have been a bad idea as they likely would have been in close proximity in air space.

Now say that I had barrel rolled or my friend barrel rolled before wave off and deployment. Do you really think that he'd have seen a canopy opening up before him? It happens in a split second and your horizontal speed is (well I'm not sure what it is but its friggin fast!). So you barrel roll and don't see the guy opening in front of you and you end up tracking right above him instead of taking a correction in the path of your track. All because you simply never saw him because you weren't looking forward before deployment. To me that is the difference right there.

That's the worst case scenario that I can see from doing a barrel roll. I will pass on doing a barrel roll to look above me. I"m more concerned about what is in front of me and beside me. And for the record you should track your ass off on every track like your life depends on it, because it actually does. Tracking at break off is one skill that I am always trying to perfect.

I will say though that you should make sure you look up as far as your neck will allow you to check ALL of your airspace, of course there still are blind spots but I always look up left and up right before deploying.

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chuckakers

I see jumpers do everything from sit in position and watch others leave or stare at their altimeters to look around and wave their arms signalling the break off to others.

Don't wave goodbye, don't wait to see others leave. Just go.

Often the jumper who achieves the greatest separation is the one who leaves first. ;)

Great advice! B|

I think waving off should be reserved for "I'm gonna open my chute now!"

My breakoff signal? The sight of the soles of my shoes as I attempt to track over the horizon. :D

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