The Future of World Team

[bigwayskydiver 0]

I recently received a very disturbing letter from the World Team. Apparently, the P3 group out at Perris swooped up the contract with UAE to support the event that was previously promised to world team. I have attached the letter.

Over the past few years, bigway has taken a drastic turn. Anyone who has been interested in World Team and other high profile jumps knows that attending a P3 camp is almost a requirement. Even people who hold multiple world records are told point blank that they need to attend a camp to get a slot on World Team. These camps run about 900 a pop for 20 jumps. It is highly "encouraged" to attend a back to back big way camp and 100 way camp for about $1800.

Participation on the world team has been the carrot for jumpers to attend P3 camps. I know jumpers that have attended over 6 camps with the hopes of a slot on world team.

This trend is spreading to other events too. The recent announcement for Texas State Record requires attendance at a P3 camp within the last year or you need a special waiver. I know more than one former TSR participant that is not even applying because they refuse to go the camps.

At the same time, the cost of P3 events has skyrocketed. The upcoming 200 way has a price tag of $1425 for 22 jumps. These costs were unheard of until P3.

In fairness to P3, their camps do serve a great purpose of helping skydiver learn the skill necessary to perform on bigway skydives outside of a high profile event. It gives the organizers the ability to train and evaluate bigway participants.

Unfortunately P3 has morphed. Now getting onto bigways is a function of paying into the P3 system rather than experience and ability. Some of our most experienced bigway skydivers are now standing aside, refusing to pay thousands of dollars to P3 to attend bigway events that they have attended several times previously, and performed well. Instead, less experienced skydivers buy their slots onto these events.

Now P3 is in complete control of the world record. This latest maneuver by P3 was not made in the best interest of breaking the world record. Rather, it was a greedy way of ensuring that their pockets remain lined with silver at the expense of the event.

Anyone who speaks out is blackballed by Kate and her crew at P3.

Now I leave you to ponder whether or not to drink the P3 cool-aid.

[JohnMitchell 14]

It's all about the money, isn't it?

I guess I ain't gonna get invited.

[chuckakers 369]

It doesn't look to me like these folks did anything wrong. Promises aren't contracts. Contracts are contracts.

If you don't want to pay big bucks for big-ways, stay home. If, as you say, there are disgruntled mega-talents out there sitting out because they don't want to play the P3 way, start your own record attempts.

Heck, all you need is a fleet of C-130's and a buttload of seriously skilled bellyflopppers. Whataya figure - 18 bucks per slot plus a buck or two for camera?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[stayhigh 2]

I see p3 events happening on very regular bases and what about the world team?? When was the last time that they had big way meets??

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[robinheid 0]

It's going to take more than one world record attempt for P3 to match the money BJ grossed over the years running the World Team show.

As you explained in great detail, BJ farmed out more and more of the critical World Team prep work to "Kate and her crew" over the years, but still swooped in on the actual world record and lined his pockets with the silver _they_ generated.

"BJ World" during that time was predicated on his access to Thai military aircraft, so when he lost his planes due to the political turbulence there, P3 axed him from the load because he no longer had anything to contribute that justified his cut of the action.

It was a business decision, pure, simple and unsentimental -- and BJ has no reason to expect anything different because, as anyone who did business with him over the years knows, sentimentality never guided his business decisions.

Thus the aspersions you cast and the conclusion you draw about P3's "maneuver" are misguided at best and malicious at worst. It is in fact the same Koolaid poured by the same people - minus one -- and even though BJ's World Team personal silver spigot has now been turned off, he will forever remain The Man who put it all together in the first place, and not just in the jungles of Thailand but in the Arizona desert where formation skydiving began.

As I wrote in SKYDIVING Magazine #327, and in this thread, it's hard to overstate B.J. Worth’s contributions to sport parachuting – not only in the United States but all over the world. It is hard even to list them all – and I suspect that he will go down in sport parachuting history as its most influential single individual.

But as I also said in those previous writings, BJ's legendary achievements and accomplishments notwithstanding, it's time for him to track off into the sunset and leave the playing field to his heirs.

I do hope, however, that when the dust settles. P3 honors BJ Worth with a one-feather Indian slot on the world record load because he's earned it -- in at least 500 different ways.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[bigwayskydiver 0]

I certainly did not mean to say that what the P3 crew did was illegal or that they violated any type of contract law. We live in the free market but that does not mean I have to like it of believe that it is not in the best interest of skydiving. I am not trying to be malicious but just expressing my opinion.

Although world team does not have regular meets, there are a lot of big way events out there that are much more high quality then the camps P3 puts on and cost less. Events such as Kaleidoscope are Back to the Future are more challenging and draw better jumpers on average. The reason some people may not have heard of some of these events are because there is not an application process. You either get an email invitation or you don't. They are not marketed like the P3 events are. If you are in the big way circuit, you know about them. If you dont care about bigway, then you may not have. However, these events are better and cost much less than P3 sponsored events.

I know there are a lot of anti BJ people on here. The purpose of my post was certainly not to waive the BJ banner or create some kind of BJ movement. However, the fact of the matter is that BJ's events are better and cheaper. I rather do Kaleidoscope over anything P3 does. I cant think of anyone who thinks otherwise.

Do the worlds best organizers deserve to be paid, hell yes the do. Should world class events where jumps are made from high altitude cost more, of course. Should jumps for the upcoming 200 way from 15K to 18K cost $70 a pop, hell no.

Again, I will say that P3 is the best thing for new skydivers trying to break into bigway. It provides a means to learn outside of a major event. Before that, you learned by getting onto an event and doing it. Obviously this very stressful and not an ideal was to set someone up for success. Bigway needs to attract new skydivers to replace the aging bigway population not to mention that many of our newer skydivers branch off into other disciplines outside of RW. If someone asked me about getting into bigway and doing a 100 way, I would tell them to go to a P3 camp.

However, my point is that its ridiculous to tell a skydiver that has been on multiple Kaleidoscope, Back to the Future, TSR, Jump for the Cause, etc for the past several years that if they don't go to a camp they will not be considered for the world record, TSR or any other event P3 hosts. While at the same time, someone who went to some camps and made good 100way attempts at a camp be given the slot.

[skyjohn 0]

Very well spoken bigway.. I personally heard BJ say he was not satisfied getting drawn into the high priced camp format. It is obvious that these people want to make a career out of teaching. Are they good at it? Absolutely, I've been on 2 world teams, and yes it's the path for one to get a "slot".
I am one that as you say will stand aside and let the rich young guys go for it!
If you don't have a record then you probably feel and think differently and in the end only you will know if the record was worth the cost.
All I know is that WT 04 was cheap considering everything we got in the package, then later it was gas prices and it just keeps going up and up.
Here's one simple question I dare anyone to ask P3. (I promise you they won't answer and if they do, you won't get a slot..)
Break down the exact cost of each jump and tell me how many people on the load have FREE slots?
You'd be amazed at the answer....
Good luck!

John R Walrond

[Beachbum 0]

Waaayyyy beyond my level, but do know a few folks who do these. To me, it really stinks that they expect people who have proven track records on multiple prior world and Texas state records to fork out money to do a P3 camp in order to get a slot in a TSR now. Aside from the insult that is to their skills, not everyone has an unlimited time and financial budget to work with. From my viewpoint, someone's got part of their anatomy lodged in another section, where it definitely doesn't belong.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Waaayyyy beyond my level, but do know a few folks who do these. To me, it really stinks that they expect people who have proven track records on multiple prior world and Texas state records to fork out money to do a P3 camp in order to get a slot in a TSR now. Aside from the insult that is to their skills, not everyone has an unlimited time and financial budget to work with. From my viewpoint, someone's got part of their anatomy lodged in another section, where it definitely doesn't belong.

I agree. While P3 is a great way for new jumpers to big way skydiving to get started, it's redundant for those who have already proven themselves and hold multiple world records.

I think their requirements stink.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[bigwayskydiver 0]

Quote

Here's one simple question I dare anyone to ask P3. (I promise you they won't answer and if they do, you won't get a slot..)
Break down the exact cost of each jump and tell me how many people on the load have FREE slots?
You'd be amazed at the answer....
Good luck!

Do you actually know the answer to this?

[happythoughts 0]

TSR sequential jump is trying to break the sequential world record that was set in 2007.

The funny part about it is that I probably can't get on the
TSR, even though I was on the record in 2007.

[billvon 2,380]

> This latest maneuver by P3 was not made in the best interest of
>breaking the world record. Rather, it was a greedy way of ensuring that
>their pockets remain lined with silver at the expense of the event.

No one is getting rich from bigways, any more than they are getting rich with any other aspect of skydiving.

P3 events are indeed getting very expensive, primarily because they're flying organizers in from all over the world (from what I can see, at least.) They are getting those prices because they are getting a pretty good reputation; they can take 100 people of varying experiences and within a few weeks put together a 100-ish national record. (The recent Aussie record is a good example.) They also have the facilities - the connections with the DZ's and tunnels to be able to handle that level of training.

So far no one else is doing that. If (for example) Roger Ponce or Guy Wright wanted to put together a similar team, they could do as well. (And I hope they do; it would tend to drive prices down.)

>Now P3 is in complete control of the world record.

No one has ever been "in complete control of the world record." BJ had control of the World Team for a long, long time - and even then, Airspeed pulled together a 300-way out of 13 airplanes in Eloy. They could do the same now if they wanted to (although now it would take 20 Otters at least.) Or Billy Richards. Or Larry Hill. Or whoever else wanted to take on that level of effort.

>Anyone who speaks out is blackballed by Kate and her crew at P3.

Hmm. I know a lot of people who have bitched about Kate (or Tom, or Louie) and were back there jumping at the next P3 camp. I also know a few people who simply did not have the skills to do bigway, and justified their lack of ability by claiming "it's all politics."

In other words, nothing has changed.

[yjumpinoz 0]

The thing I don't like about the no pressure P3 camps to train new record jumpers is that the camps are no fault camps. No one gets axed for mistakes. Make those same mistakes a K-scope and such and you will be set down. Performing at a camp versus an invitational is a different ball game in my opinion. I have done both and witnessed it.

[kallend 1,620]

Quote

TSR sequential jump is trying to break the sequential world record that was set in 2007.

The funny part about it is that I probably can't get on the
TSR, even though I was on the record in 2007.

Ditto.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mirage62 0]

Is anyone getting "rich" from bigways? Maybe not "rich" but more and more seem to attempting to make a larger part of there income from it. Nothing wrong with that at all. The events cost more period.

I started with POP's, did 3 camps, 4 TSR's, 4 K jumps, ect, ect. I've been on over 200 hundred way jumps. (There are a lot of people that have more, I know) And I was lucky enough to do the 400 way.

I didn't apply to TSR this year and I hate it. It's a great event. These guys/gals put on a super event. But the P3 requirement turned me off. Yes I could have asked for a pass on the requirment but the truth is I can do 3 other smaller events for the cost of that event.

For example Roger and Louis events are GREAT the jumps a hard but doable, we will do 10-15 jumps and the ATTITUDE is good.

When I was chasing a world record I was willing to pay just about any price to help get "that slot" It was a hell of a trip full of LOT's of DRAMA. Glad I did it.

Be interesting to see what happens but as long as there are records there will be people willing to pay the price for a slot just as there will be people that paid the price before that are unwilling to re-pay there price.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[cpoxon 0]

There is already a discussion about this in the RW forum. Let's keep the discussion in one place.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live