jigneshsoni 0 #1 July 19, 2005 Would like an opinion of everybody who went through their AFF training. Would like to know from all you guys what you feel about the importance of wind tunnle before/while AFF training? How many of you think it is a must? How many of you think it is not required? Would like your opinion on it. Thanks Jignesh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #2 July 19, 2005 It was really nice to have, it helped me out alot after I failed AFF 3... And considering that I was having alot of trouble staying stable, I would have probably failed AFF 3 atleast 1 more time.. So, Definately not required, but I would highly recomend a good 10 minutes in it , it's amazing how much you can learn in that time.. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WatchYourStep 0 #3 July 19, 2005 I'm a newb and done with AFF, but the tunnel is unreal. I only did 15 minutes this last week while I was in California and I found it to be amazing. I didn't realize how much I moved around. After only 15 minutes I was doing a lot better. If you got the cash I'd do it. "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 37 #4 July 19, 2005 If it's mandatory, AFF would be very difficult in Canada - we have no wind tunnels On the other hand, is it a good idea? I have to leave that to others as I have not had the opportunity to try a tunnel.... yet"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #5 July 19, 2005 I am going to attempt to reach a windtunnel sometime by the end of the year. Probably Orlando SkyVenture this October. 30 minutes time. I think it would do me some good since I'd like to safely be a part of bigger ways. (ie 20 ways) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #6 July 19, 2005 Optional, although highly recommended Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookncrater 0 #7 July 19, 2005 NO, it is NOT mandatory. People were doing AFF and passing it with 0 rejumps long before wind-tunnels gained wide-spread popularity. While there is a LOT you can learn from tunnel time, you can pick up bad habits in there too. Pick up a back issue of Skydiving and you can look for an article by a GK on exaggerated mantis position for instance. I think it is a little silly when people spend hundreds upon hundeds of dollars to travel across the country and then think they need to do an hour of tunnel just to pass aff. The money is better spent on a few extra aff or coach jumps and decent gear that won't kill you IMHO. Plus, above all else, who cares if you can do a 10 point 4-way at 50 jumps if you can't land your canopy consistently and safely. Flame suit on! ________________________________________________________________________________ when in doubt... hook it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #8 July 19, 2005 It's a great tool, and if you can afford one with a coach, definitely very useful at any point. It will help you work out your body position and learn stability without having to go through the anxiety of a regular Skydive. It helps isolate the free fall aspect of Skydiving and focus solely on it. As for, when is it a good time for the tunnel. Well if you can afford it, any time. Else, I feel there's more value for money in it 100 odd jumps into Skydiving. At that point you can relate to what it helps with much better. Wind tunnel for AFF is great too but not a must by any means. Unless you are repeating AFF levels too many times, I would first give AFF a chance to take it's course and save the money to spend on the tunnel later down the line. There are two aspects to why AFF is such a challenge, 'The Technical' such as good body position etc and 'The Mental' such as the anxiety and the fear you experience. In my opinion, if you go to the tunnel for your AFF you are working on the premiss that if you can fix the 'Technical' aspect of your skydiving in relative isolation, it will help you overcome your fear and anxiety on the Skydive. Nothing wrong with it, except that I believe in the opposit. In my opinion you should work with you instructor to try and harness your fears and anxiety first, and let that help you fix your 'technical' issues. Frankly, AFF is not as technical that you need a wind tunnel. It's more about getting an handle on your stress level. While a tunnel will help with that I think it's an exercise best performed in the presence on an instructor and in the Sky. The tunnel can be used later to fix the purely technical issues. Ofcourse if you are spending thousands on AFF then it makes sense to head out to a tunnel and leverage it. That said, I think both approaches have their pros and cons and in the end whatever works for you is good for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygirlz 0 #9 July 19, 2005 If we would have a Tunnel on or very closed to our DZ I - as AFF-I - would highly _recommend_ every student to go to the tunnel for 10 to 15 minutes. As right now the next tunnel (and its not a very fast one) is about 8 hours drive! As soon as we find out we are having kind of a problem student (who would need a few rejumps) tunnel training would make a lot of sense. But as its that far to drive, its not very resonable. Up to now I had only one student who went to the tunnel. He already thought about quitting skydiving, then went to the tunnel and did a very nice job afterwards! If you have the chance of flying the tunnel - take it! It's that much fun and you are learning a lot!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larsrulz 0 #10 July 19, 2005 QuoteNO, it is NOT mandatory. People were doing AFF and passing it with 0 rejumps long before wind-tunnels gained wide-spread popularity. While there is a LOT you can learn from tunnel time, you can pick up bad habits in there too. Pick up a back issue of Skydiving and you can look for an article by a GK on exaggerated mantis position for instance. It's funny cause I was just talking to a GK two weekends ago about all the tunnel time he gets, and he was saying that, even with a coach and lots of experience, one will pick up bad habits in the tunnel. The tunnel airspeed will not be the same speed that your body will fall in the air, and learning to correct for this difference will often cause problems such as exaggerated mantis or such tunnel-induced positions. That said, I have never been in the tunnel, so what do I know!. Failing a single AFF level or having freefall problems never necessitates getting tunnel time. Simulation can never make up for the actual experience in whatever one is training for. I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #11 July 19, 2005 QuoteFailing a single AFF level or having freefall problems never necessitates getting tunnel time. Simulation can never make up for the actual experience in whatever one is training for. But it does help, ALOT... I completely lost it in AFF, I couldnt arch worth crap, my flying just sucked, it was bad enough that I was told I had to goto the tunnel before they would let me fly again, it really was that bad.. The tunnel fixed that for me in a matter of minutes, I had no more stability problems after that. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superman32 0 #12 July 19, 2005 Having just gone through AFF, I think the biggest problem is the anxiety and stiffness. Like everyone says, just relax and things will fall into place. As a new jumper that was by far the most difficult part of skydiving. If going to a tunnel helps with your confidence, then go for it, but remember, in a tunnel there is no ride to alti, no watching other people jump out, no door anxiety, and no rushing ground coming to you. Having said that, I really would like some tunnel time to help with my fall rate Inveniam Viam aut Faciam I'm back biatches! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #13 July 19, 2005 Tunnel time is a great teaching tool at all levels, but there are only a few in all of North America. Closest ones to you would probably be Pigeon Forge, TN or Orlando, FL. There's talk of building one near you, in New Jersey, but so far that's just talk. You might want to do a Google search for "Skyventure". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #14 July 19, 2005 QuoteI think it is a little silly when people spend hundreds upon hundeds of dollars to travel across the country and then think they need to do an hour of tunnel just to pass aff. The money is better spent on a few extra aff or coach jumps and decent gear that won't kill you IMHO. Well, after repeating AFF4 four times and AFF 5 three times, I decided a tunnel was a better use of my money. After 15 minutes all my problems were fixed and I was so excited I did a total of an hour before I went back to AFF. The instructor’s comments on my next AFF dive were glowing and I blew through the rest of AFF and a series of SDU jumps like a rock star. In my opinion I would have never passed AFF and hence never become a skydiver if it weren’t for doing tunnel time during AFF. With all that said I don’t recommend it for AFF students that are not having problems, only ones that are. As for experienced skydivers, I highly recommend tunnel time. It’s a great training tool."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skylord 1 #15 July 20, 2005 I'm a newbie, but I would equate learning to skydive without tunnel time to learning to drive in a stick shift car. It can be done, but why add the headache? My two cents is roll in ten minutes into AFF, around level 4 or 5. Get the basics early on. I think it should be mandatory. My training took a whole different turn afterwards. However, I think a AFF-I should be able to waive the requirement for those who show exceptional progress on a case by case basis. BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookncrater 0 #16 July 20, 2005 QuoteI think it should be mandatory. Careful dude, what was good for you, might not be necessary for everybody. Plus, most people don't have access to a windtunnel. The closest tunnel to me is over a 1000 miles away. I don't think it is fair or even realistic to think tunnel or even tandems should be required for everyone that wants to do an AFF level 1.________________________________________________________________________________ when in doubt... hook it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #17 July 20, 2005 If it were mandatory the world would contain very few skydivers. There are no functioning wind tunnels in Australia, and I somehow learned to skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sd-slider 0 #18 July 20, 2005 Nary "Nay-Sayer's" can not argue the one thing that "DOES" come from tunnel time whether it's 1 minute or 1 hour...... CONFIDENCE! Argue that Ye Lords of Negativity!Anvil Brother #69 Sidelined with a 5mm C5-C6 herniated disk... Back2Back slammers and 40yr old fat guys don't mix! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #19 July 20, 2005 Well... kinda like bob said... if winds tunnels were mandatory for some reason... how is it all us jumpers who've been jumping since the days before tunnels learned to jump? I think its better to think of tunnels as a new "tool" in teaching someone to skydive. You can kind of look at it like Static Line vs. AFF. Okay, I do not want to start a debate over static line vs. AFF, just saying that AFF is certainly a more recent inovation with many noteable advantages over the old static line progress, mainly I would say, it gets the student more freefall time more quickly getting them more experience in a lesser amount of jumps. However, both progressions when taught correctly teach what the student program is supposed to, how to exit an aircraft, open a parachute and pilot it to a safe landing... e.g. "how to save yourself"... the rest is gravy, gravy is good and AFF gets the student a lot more gravy, so to speak. So, back to tunnels... its a new tool. A good one. Will every DZ in the world eventually have one, probably not is a safe bet. I've seen tunnels help students stuck on a level work through a problem and then they went back to the real thing, is a good example of how tunnels are a good tool. To look at the question as to whether or not the tunnel should be mandatory from a different angle... well... its really only the DZs that have tunnels that can make it mandatory. I seriously doubt that DZs that don't have tunnels are going to say, "Sorry, a tunnel is mandatory... please drive over to our competition that has one and after you do your tunnel time, please come back here"... uh, yeah right... Its a tool. Any job... you need good tools to do the job, but you don't need every possible tool made or conceived in the universe that applies to that task to do a good job. Conversely, you can have lots of good tools and still do a sh*tty job if you're not a good instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #20 July 20, 2005 >I think it should be mandatory. Hmm. I've taken around 1000 AFF students up, and only about 10 of them seriously needed wind tunnel time to ease their progression. Only one of them needed it to graduate. Sure, it would probably help, but so would a canopy control simulator. And given that most fatalities nowadays are due to poor canopy control rather than poor RW skills, a $60,000 canopy simulator would make a lot more sense to require than a $6 million wind tunnel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #21 July 20, 2005 Hi ZZ S/l then AFF. What's next? Would it be just as much fun for some people who want to get into RW, FF, style just to do the tunnel. BTW I've never been to a tunnel) Advantages No buying gear No packing No weather holds No airplanes No hook turns or dirty jumpsuits No fatalities. Wanna skydive? Go to the tunnel Airplanes are soooo retro. so i guess the question is should a airplane be mandatory? R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skylord 1 #22 July 20, 2005 Yeah, that's a good point. I'm rethinking my position right now. IF you can do it, I recommend it. Making it a waiverable requirement for AFF may be too much. You're probably right. I love tunnel work, I've got almost 45 minutes in the Perris tunnel. I'm going back this weekend, and then taking my A license check dive. I'm working with coaches from the top teams in the world. I'm spoiled rotten, and I think I fell prey to my own experience versus what is generally available out there. Sorry for that. Thanks for the counterpoint! BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #23 July 20, 2005 QuoteHi ZZ Advantages No buying gear No packing No weather holds No airplanes No hook turns or dirty jumpsuits No fun! Anyway, if ya'all want to get in a tunnel, go for it. I'll probably get around to getting in the one down at Perris sometime... some day when I'm feeling like my ego needs a good slap... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #24 July 20, 2005 yup ! you are right, it's does build a lot of confidence, and that's why so many students use it. However in my opinion that confidence is better built in an actual Skydive. If your idea is to use AFF as a tool to simply show your instructor that you have the skill to get stable and pass AFF1 ... 7 in one jump sure, it's a great way. However, if you want to use AFF as a tool to start practicing how to think through a complicated situation in the relative safety of your instructor, then you need to stay out of the tunnel and in the sky. The only tool that we have for now to learn how to deal with stress is AFF. Your skills learnt in the tunnel aren't going to help you deal with the stress of malfunctions or off field landings or last minute objective avoidence. Then again, there is no study to back this up. It's purely my belief. Whichever approach you choose you will eventually become a Skydiver. I just feel AFF has it's own value in the student program and we shouldn't try and circumvent it unless we have a strong enough case for it. The tunnel is there to work on a different aspect of Skydiving and it has it's value when the time is right for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #25 July 20, 2005 We don't have wind tunnels here, but there have been times I've wished I had the option of one to train on. Oh, and Skylord... most people here learn to drive on "stickshifts" as well Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
