Military static line jumps

[gusto77 0]

The SIM defines a skydive as:

SKYDIVE: 1. n. The descent of a person to the surface from
an aircraft in flight when he or she uses or intends to use a
parachute during all or part of that descent. 2. v. To jump
form an aircraft with a parachute.

So my question is, why dont military STATIC line jumps count as skydives in my log book or towards jump numbers? My military freefall jumps count but not my static line jumps. They meet the criteria of the definition. Just curious. Thanks!

[BIGUN 1,230]

They count towards jump numbers, but not for ratings which have a freefall time requirement; nor TI which has a number of ram air canopy jumps requirement and time in sport requirement.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3878429;search_string=Do%20military%20static%20line%20jumps%20count%20toward%20jump%20numbers%20or%20just%20mil.%20freefall%20jumps%3F%20;#3878429

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[gusto77 0]

Thanks! I'm not a number chaser by any means but i was curious. Although I am new to this sport my personal opinion is that static line jumps, unless executed during a static line progression course, should not count towards USPA licenses or ratings. Except for confidence building (jumping from low altitudes) they provide no skill building or relevance to our sport.

[BIGUN 1,230]

It was the subject of discussion for quite some time.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Thanks! I'm not a number chaser by any means but i was curious. Although I am new to this sport my personal opinion is that static line jumps, unless executed during a static line progression course, should not count towards USPA licenses or ratings. Except for confidence building (jumping from low altitudes) they provide no skill building or relevance to our sport.

Most of our licenses are based on Freefall jumps. However, most military jumpers do excellent PLF's, a skill very near and dear to me. If the right attitude is in place, military experience is a plus.

[theonlyski 3]

They count towards total jump numbers and B-D license jump number requirements.

This is suppossed to be fixed in the new SIM that should be getting published soon.

(S/L night jumps don't count for your required 2 for the D... but if you're HALO, you probably have them anyways)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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[dragon2 2]

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Thanks! I'm not a number chaser by any means but i was curious. Although I am new to this sport my personal opinion is that static line jumps, unless executed during a static line progression course, should not count towards USPA licenses or ratings. Except for confidence building (jumping from low altitudes) they provide no skill building or relevance to our sport.

Let me guess, you never did a staticline jump did you?

No skill building? For squares you learn the exact same reserve procedure, canopy control, landing circuit and landing skills as for AFF. The only thing you do not learn during SL jumps is freefall stuff, that comes later. The canopy stuff is more important anyway as this is what gets most people in trouble/killed.

For rounds, ours still learn how to steer and land and roll, and pack, otherwise their skills are less relevant to sport skydiving but they still have my respect, even though these jumps do not count in our license system (freefall jumps only).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[theonlyski 3]

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Let me guess, you never did a staticline jump did you?

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So my question is, why dont military STATIC line jumps count as skydives in my log book or towards jump numbers? My military freefall jumps count but not my static line jumps. They meet the criteria of the definition. Just curious. Thanks!

In the US Military, you have to go through static line (BAC) before you can go to HALO (MFF).

Military static line training doesn't do a whole lot as far as freefall training, but the safety awareness is second to none.

Not to mention the endless days of PLFs

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[billvon 2,739]

>my personal opinion is that static line jumps, unless executed during
>a static line progression course, should not count towards USPA licenses or
>ratings. Except for confidence building (jumping from low altitudes) they
>provide no skill building or relevance to our sport.

Given that nearly all our fatalities now occur during the canopy phase of the descent, I think they are quite relevant!

[riggerrob 601]

Military static-line jumps ceased to relevant for civilian licenses shortly after the military stopped selling surplus canopies intact.
As skydiving student equipment diverged, experience with front-mounted reserves and non-steerable round canopies became less and less relevant.

USPA and CSPA banned round mains - for first jump students in the late 1980s, so it has been a good 20 years since there was much over-lap in skills.

[jgoose71 0]

Ive read both threads and neither address a round static line counting for a recurrency jump. Anyone know?

It's happened to me many a times. Deployed for a long time. Come back, do a few military S/L jumps, head to the local drop zone to remember that jumping is supposed to be fun....

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[JohnMitchell 16]

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They count towards total jump numbers and B-D license jump number requirements.

This is suppossed to be fixed in the new SIM that should be getting published soon.

Is that really true, that S/L jumps will now count towards D licenses? I liked it better when it was just freefall jumps that counted.

[theonlyski 3]

Email I recieved from Jim Crouch:

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Hi Robert,

We will clean this up in the next version of the SIM so it is a bit clearer. The Board decided to allow military jumps to count towards jump numbers for licenses and awards, as stated in the minutes back in 2005:

Military jumps conducted on military orders. Should they count for USPA awards and licenses?

A question was posed to S&T as to whether military jumps conducted on military orders should they count for USPA awards and licenses? At issue is the use of round parachutes and exit and opening altitudes at and below 1200 feet AGL. The BSR’s state that jumps made under military orders do not need to be made in accordance to the BSR’s. Therefore the Committee believes that it is clear in our BSRs that those jumps are being conducted in accordance with the BSRs and should apply towards the total jumps needed for B, C and D licenses as well as awards.



However, it is a bit confusing that the BSRs state that military jumps need not meet the BSRs, therefore the jumps are in compliance with the BSRs. We will have a new version of the SIM ready sometime in the late summer-early fall. I am currently working on the edits for both the SIM and IRM, and the S&T Committee will be reviewing changes at the upcoming July Board meeting.

ETA: I would have figured people would be more upset about them being used for B and C licenses.

Whats a couple dozen static lines going to hurt someone with 400+ freefall jumps? You still need the required freefall time for the other licenses.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JohnMitchell 16]

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ETA: I would have figured people would be more upset about them being used for B and C licenses.

Whats a couple dozen static lines going to hurt someone with 400+ freefall jumps? You still need the required freefall time for the other licenses.

To get a B license you must have completed 50 jumps and accumulated at least 30 minutes of controlled freefall time.

Depending on how high you get to jump, you could easily log 30 minutes in 30 jumps or less. Should someone get a B license with 30 freefalls and 20 static lines? I don't like it. Our sport is skydiving, freefall jumps, not parachuting, which is static line. They should have never allowed static lines to count.


And don't tell me the USPA's mag is called Parachutist.

[AggieDave 6]

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Our sport is skydiving, freefall jumps, not parachuting

So the Canopy Piloting nationals last week don't mean squat? How about Canopy Formation? Ok, you're old school, how about Classic Accuracy?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnMitchell 16]

But do you freefall to start, or do you have a static line open your chute for you? I'm not saying that the canopy disciplines don't count, because I've done most of them. I'm saying skydivers open their own canopies, not by using a static line.

[theonlyski 3]

Maybe you should petition the USPA to change their definition of skydive

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Skydive
1: The descent of a person to the surface from an aircraft in flight when he or she uses or intends to use a parachute during all or part of that descent.

2: To jump from an aircraft with a parachute.

To something requiring X seconds of freefall... but then you screw over the students who do SL progression.

Not to even start about the freefall vs drougefall

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[wolfriverjoe 1,462]

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To get a B license you must have completed 50 jumps and accumulated at least 30 minutes of controlled freefall time.

Depending on how high you get to jump, you could easily log 30 minutes in 30 jumps or less. Should someone get a B license with 30 freefalls and 20 static lines? I don't like it. Our sport is skydiving, freefall jumps, not parachuting, which is static line. They should have never allowed static lines to count.


And don't tell me the USPA's mag is called Parachutist.

For static line jumps (military or otherwise) you still need to:

Gear up properly
Exit the airplane properly
Make sure you are up to speed on EPs (you may or may not need to execute them, but you better be able to if necessary)
Land the canopy (including the landing pattern for square canopies)

The only thing missing is controlled freefall.

And just to argue a bit more, CRW does hop&pops almost exculsively. Should those jumps not count becuase there isn't any real freefall time?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[theonlyski 3]

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Make sure you are up to speed on EPs (you may or may not need to execute them, but you better be able to if necessary)

Yup, no AAD's for those reserves.

There are steerable rounds in common use for many units as well. They don't teach (or emphasize) a landing pattern with them though.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[LouDiamond 1]

Here's something else for everyone to chew on. There are military systems that employ a static line and deploy a square canopy (ie :MC-5, all the newer military systems being sold are capable of static line deployment/configuration as well) that are either in or were in use by certain units. The newest static line round canopy, the MC-6, is highly maneuverable and needs to be flown and landed very much like a square canopy. Failure in understanding how that canopy flies and how to properly land it into the wind(flare) will result in broken bones and or serious injury.

To think that the experience and training a person gets in the military basic parachute course is not applicable at all to the sport side shows a lack of understanding and or short sidedness into what it entails to fly a round canopy safely to the ground be it via the toggles or riser slips. Not all of it is relevant to the sport side, as civilians typically don't jump with equipment at night in mass, but the amount of ground training and in air experience far exceeds what is offered in any AFF course.

IMO , the USPA has got it right in the way they qualify these types of jumps and I agree with Jim Crouch that the verbiage needs to be modified.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
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SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Make sure you are up to speed on EPs (you may or may not need to execute them, but you better be able to if necessary)

I, and a lot of others, made our student jumps without an AAD, even when we got to freefall. No big deal. Static line is a hell of a lot more reliable than a student pulling a ripcord.

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And just to argue a bit more, CRW does hop&pops almost exculsively. Should those jumps not count becuase there isn't any real freefall time?

Did they pitch their own pilot chute or pull their own ripcord? That's a real freefall, even if it's not very long.


To everyone, I'm not saying that static line jumps mean nothing, or that you don't learn anything. Heck, I have 7 S/L jumps myself. I'm just saying they didn't count towards licenses, and I don't log them in my total of jumps. All those are freefall.

Isn't the Gold Wings for 1000 freefalls? Should we change that to be 1000 jumps, including S/L. Should someone get Gold Wings if they've never opened their own chute or done a freefall?

Sorry if my traditional streak bothers some. I just thought the old way was better.

[bjbkkb 1]

My worst AFF opening is WAY better than my best military static line opening (I won't even go into the Air Force pilot not slowing the C-130 down for the jump run and the bruises it left on all of the jumpers where there harnesses contacted their bodies). It seems to me that if you want to count them feel free because that is a very painful way to get jumps

My goal is that when all is said done I will have a big pile of well used gear and a collection of great stories.

[theonlyski 3]

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Isn't the Gold Wings for 1000 freefalls? Should we change that to be 1000 jumps, including S/L. Should someone get Gold Wings if they've never opened their own chute or done a freefall?

According to the application for the wings, its 1000 jumps, not 1000 freefalls.

That being said, you're damn right I want someone with 1000 military static lines getting an award!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JohnMitchell 16]

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That being said, you're damn right I want someone with 1000 military static lines getting an award!

What ever. I guess I should have applied for my damn gold wings 5 jumps earlier then. I hope you don't ask that guy on your bigway jump when he says "Yeah, I got my gold wings." I still say a freefall, where you have to deploy your own chute, means more than a static line.


This sport started going downhill when they began calling RW "Formation Skydiving." WTH. Why not just call Polo "Croquet on Horseback"?

[theonlyski 3]

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That being said, you're damn right I want someone with 1000 military static lines getting an award!

What ever. I guess I should have applied for my damn gold wings 5 jumps earlier then. I hope you don't ask that guy on your bigway jump when he says "Yeah, I got my gold wings." I still say a freefall, where you have to deploy your own chute, means more than a static line.

This sport started going downhill when they began calling RW "Formation Skydiving." WTH. Why not just call Polo "Croquet on Horseback"?

Error in your logic, I don't think I will ever be on a bigway

I do deploy my parachute on a static line. Me exiting the aircraft activates the parachute.

Don't the requirements for B-C licenses require so many hours of freefall?

How many A-License holders get invited to a bigway?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message