ryoder 1,382
We need a permanent "I told you so" Thread in the incident forum
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Ron 7
Some of his comments:
He died due to a landing injury 23 July 2006.
Quotesorry 'bout your friend(s)...doesn't change my opinion...maybe you think that because you think that you're wiser that your thoughts coincide with the wise. i don't think so. i'll be here tomorrow and the next day, even though you think i know less than you. i appreciate your concern but, in my experience, those with above-average ability progress on a steeper learning curve than the average. don't mean to be a dick, but i've been listening to the bullshit for too long.
Quotedidn't you receive my, I'm tired of your rabble memo?
i have done nothing dangerous to date. keep that in mind when your spouting more advice and judgements.
Quotereckless advice? here's some advice; stop making friends with injury-prone people.
He died due to a landing injury 23 July 2006.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 7
QuoteIt seems to me (and I am asking the question to learn here) that the Ravens are much less forgiving than, say, PDR, Smart or Optimums. Is that a fair statement?
It is more about the TYPE than the brand. A 7 cell, low aspect ratio, F111 canopy (that is normally smaller than your normal canopy) is not going to fly the same as your main.
If you don't know how it does fly... You could easily stall it. Many of us flew 7 cell F111's as mains, so we know how they fly. Those that have only ever jumped ZP 9 cells do not know how to fly the F111 7cells and might stall them.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
billvon 2,396
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>It seems to me (and I am asking the question to learn here) that the
>Ravens are much less forgiving than, say, PDR, Smart or Optimums.
When landed like a HP canopy, yes. (Of course, that's true to some degree of Stilettos and Sabre1's as well; you can't land them like a modern Crossfire.)
>Ravens are much less forgiving than, say, PDR, Smart or Optimums.
When landed like a HP canopy, yes. (Of course, that's true to some degree of Stilettos and Sabre1's as well; you can't land them like a modern Crossfire.)
Quotethe fatalities are not the entire picture.
whuffos are always wrong about the number of fatalities.
jumpers never tell them about the number of injuries though.
the only thing worse than dying is almost dying.
there are a lot of busted up people who weren't flying super-fast canopies, but were flying beyond their abilities.
yes, when we had the frequent discussions of WL BSRs, I looked at several recent years of accidents and found that a BSR would have only saved a tiny portion of them. Most were experienced people, or low timers who made low turns under larger canopies. There are certainly some exceptions who posted here extensively and then died doing it, but the actual number isn't that high.
But the femur count, the messed up ankles and knees, those don't get recorded well. The most effective sticky thread may be "I fucked up" with accountings from these people. Include the details of physical therapy, rather than just the cool, EXTREME xrays of metal fixtures inside the body. From my own experience, the 6 month hassle of recovering from a simple rotator cuff repair, or the longer 9 month process when I initially broke my shoulder, the indignity of having to do bicep curl with fucking 1 pound dumbells - that may be more motivating than the fear of seemingly rare death.
The absolute least effective postings are the ones from the long timers who say "I did all this stupid shit too when I was new and although nothing happened to me, you shouldn't do it."
Quote>It seems to me (and I am asking the question to learn here) that the
>Ravens are much less forgiving than, say, PDR, Smart or Optimums.
When landed like a HP canopy, yes. (Of course, that's true to some degree of Stilettos and Sabre1's as well; you can't land them like a modern Crossfire.)
...and I think the point some are trying to make is that this type of knowledge/skill stems from jump numbers, time in sport, and experience. It's something you can't buy, inherit, read about, or have appear magically due to "Mad Skillz".
Take your time. Seek out and listen to advice. Learn what you can along the way. And, most importantly, survive long enough to become more that just a 100 jump wonder.
Birdshit & Fools Productions
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
mdrejhon 8
I am still on a Sabre 170 for more than 400 jumps, even after demoing Pilot 140, Pilot 150, Sabre2 150, PD143R, and a few others.
Though, soon, I'll finally I'll switch to one of those other wings, I'm more concerned in a softer opening now -- so probably a Pilot or similiar.
Though, soon, I'll finally I'll switch to one of those other wings, I'm more concerned in a softer opening now -- so probably a Pilot or similiar.
faulknerwn 36
Big Ravens are different than MicroRavens.. MicroRavens have a very high stall point. Last time I jumped one (a 120) I was probably 150 out the door, 143ish without my main :-) I was trying to hold brakes to follow my stuff down. 3 times! during the canopy ride I accidently did a full-blown end-cell-touching collapse of the canopy. Anytime where the toggles were at my shoulders or below it just collapsed.. I'm only 5' 1 tall. So while slightly overloaded, I don't have monkey arms!
I also had ~5000 jumps on small 7 cells at the time. Big Ravens and other styles of Ravens are fine, but MicroRavens suck and do stall at a stupidly high stall point (shoulders.) PLF your best...
I also had ~5000 jumps on small 7 cells at the time. Big Ravens and other styles of Ravens are fine, but MicroRavens suck and do stall at a stupidly high stall point (shoulders.) PLF your best...
QuoteWe need a permanent "I told you so" thread in the incidents forum.
It would list all the 100-300 jump wonders that fly canopies way to small for them. Especially the ones that have told the experts to mind their own business!!
You know, the people that think they are better than Germain or any of the other legitimate experts....Reminds me of the country song "Back when I knew it all"
i bet that thread would be deleted by a certain moderator that recently injured himself, probably swooping, already the 2nd time around; now, who steps up and tells "that guy" that his canopy was too small for either his ego or his skill-set!?
before anyone gets me wrong, that's a tongue-in-cheek comment, but like some already have pointed out, the fatal landing-accidents seem to be by "experienced and legitimate" canopy-pilots for the most part. if you read around the incidents, the younger ones seem to be more prone to comparatively "minor" injuries..
logic would say it's more of a problem because of complacency than "excessive wingloadings" as assumed by some.
i wish the mentioned mod a speedy recovery!
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
There's a difference between an experienced skydiver and an experienced canopy pilot, that's the breakdown I'd be interested in. Someone with 1000 jumps who swoops themselves into the ground attempting a 270 when they've only ever used double fronts to land is still inexperienced.
Your stats
Jumps: 200
Years: 3
Disciplines: Swooping
Freeflying
Container: Infinity
Main: Katana 135 ft² (1.52 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: Optimum Reserve 143 ft² (1.43 lbs/ft²)
AAD: Vigil
As opposed to
Jumps: 582
Years: 4
Disciplines: Freeflying
Swooping
Photographer: Yes
Gear
Container: Voodoo
Main: Crossfire 2 139 ft² (1.55 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: Raven Dash-M
AAD: Cypres
Jumps: 200
Years: 3
Disciplines: Swooping
Freeflying
Container: Infinity
Main: Katana 135 ft² (1.52 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: Optimum Reserve 143 ft² (1.43 lbs/ft²)
AAD: Vigil
As opposed to
Jumps: 582
Years: 4
Disciplines: Freeflying
Swooping
Photographer: Yes
Gear
Container: Voodoo
Main: Crossfire 2 139 ft² (1.55 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: Raven Dash-M
AAD: Cypres
You confused me with this post.
Who is the other person you are comparing me with?
What is the point of this comparison?
The biggest thing that stands out is that the second guy should REALLY get a decent reserve! Those Ravens are dangerous stall machines.
You are being compared to the late Ted Nelson, are you really too thick to see that?
JohnMitchell 14
I watched a petite woman, like you, stall her Micro Raven reserve and get a few comp. fractures. She said it was her fault for stalling it, but her toggles never went below her elbows. I say it's a poorly rigged canopy.QuoteBig Ravens are different than MicroRavens.. MicroRavens have a very high stall point.
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JohnMitchell 14
Good point. That would be me. I've never done more than a 180 or jumped anything smaller than a 135. I don't know how to swoop, but I sure know what it looks like when it's done wrong.QuoteThere's a difference between an experienced skydiver and an experienced canopy pilot, that's the breakdown I'd be interested in.
If (heaven forbid) you hurt yourself doing a 270 on a velo, would that be classed as an injury to an experienced or inexperienced skydiver. The core of my question is really to find out what the split in injuries is between people who follow "the progression" (double fronts -> 90 -> 180 -> 270) and those who don't. I'm strongly on "the progression" myself and am more curious about any affect the generally held "best way" has (or does not have) on the distribution of injuries. I'm not for a second suggesting that I don't want to be on the right path (especially when my mentors and experienced friends all agree that it's the safest path), just wondering how the numbers play out in the real world.
JohnMitchell 14
I see what you're getting at. Although any swooping ups the risk, my money is on the guy who gets the extra training, studies the techniques and tries to know where the limits are. Most of the injuries I've seen have been from poorly trained swoopers imitating the best.
Quotewell fuck you
You really should sit down and write a nice well though out "I'm not a prick and sorry for being an asswipe" type of PM and send it to NickDG & Nova and ask them to forgive you for being an asshat, once all that nicey nice shit is over with... maybe you could shut the fuck up and open your ears & brain cells a little and listen to what they have to say to you instead of flapping your yap, you might not only learn a few things from those cats, you might become a better jumper by doing so.
We all understand your the new kid in the hood and you feel the need to "puff & fluff" and let us all know how much you've learned in your short walk around the block, you not the first, you won't be the last..... but if you keep heading down the road your on attitude wise, you will not be viewed kindly by those who have long ago paid there due and seen and forgot more then you will ever learn in your short visit to the hood.
Quotesorry, id just rather turn "young jumpers" into "unsafe jumpers" or some other name that doesnt direct it at young people
FYI-Age never entered into his postings or anyone else's for that matter, the sooner you come to terms with the fact that you don't know shit yet as a young jumper the better off you'll be.
Yea I know......
Quotewell fuck you
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo
A hundred jumps is never more than a hundred landings.
The landings seem to be the important part.
The landings seem to be the important part.
DocPop 1
Quote
You are being compared to the late Ted Nelson, are you really too thick to see that?
And just how was I supposed to know whose profile that was? No name was posted.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."
~ CanuckInUSA
~ CanuckInUSA
The Ravens were designed before the practice of overloading reserves became popular,.
Back when they were designed, a 1:1 WL was common on the reserve.
So the expected jumper under a 150 would likely be a 130 lb girl.
The stall point needed to be designed for the length of her arms, not the 6'1" 180 lb guy.
If they had designed it for him, she would not have been able to get a full flare.
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