0
potatoman

Pilot lisence required to operate jumpship

Recommended Posts

Not sure about this one, but I know locally, you only need a Private Pilots Lisence to operate a jumpship. Yet, according to law you are not allowed to get paid for it. Would you then need a Commercial lisence when employed permanently at a DZ, and does this vary from country to country?
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Both FAA and JAA (European equivalent) prohibit PPL license holders for flying for any compensation or where they have not paid at least their pro-rata share of the aircraft cost (example: a PPL pilot must pay at least 25% of the cost of flight in a four-seater). That said, many PPLs would still jump at the chance of cheap flying to build up their hours. However, in the long run it will make it much easier for the pilot to be a CPL which is quite easy/cheap in US but is quite complicated and many multiples more expensive in Europe.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't know about SA, but here in the US, if anyone is paying to get on the plane, the pilot needs a commercial.

It doesn't matter if the pilot is getting paid or not.

There are very limited exceptions that allow passengers to equally share the cost of a trip with the pilot, if all involved are participating.
For example, a private pilot could share costs with the passengers if they were going to a golf outing, and everyone was golfing. If the pilot was going to just hang out in the clubhouse while his buddies golfed, they couldn't legally share the costs of the flight.

So unless the pilot is jumping too, if the skydivers are paying anything to get on the plane, the pilot needs a commercial license. Period.

That doesn't mean there aren't private pilots flying jumpers out there, it just means they aren't doing it legally (here in the US anyway).
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

My sister flies and and I jump. I sometimes help with the fuel cost, but she is flying for the fun and I am falling for the same reason.



Which illustrates the point that it's possible, but not very likely in most cases.

Yes, a private individual that owns his own aircraft and decides to take up a jumper for no compensation whatsoever can do so if he chooses. Beyond that it starts getting a bit tricky and rapidly moves into "must have a commercial pilot certificate."

People whine, bitch and moan about the FAA and the FARs, but the reality is they don't care about quite a bit until money starts changing hands, then they start getting really serious.

My favorite perfectly legal scenario is a dad taking his five-year-old kid up for a night flight near Area 51 and the kid making his first jump ever; night, solo, moa, BLM land. Technically, it could be done legally.

That which is legal is not necessarily safe.
That which is safe is not necessarily legal.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

My sister flies and and I jump. I sometimes help with the fuel cost, but she is flying for the fun and I am falling for the same reason.



Which illustrates the point that it's possible, but not very likely in most cases.

Yes, a private individual that owns his own aircraft and decides to take up a jumper for no compensation whatsoever can do so if he chooses. Beyond that it starts getting a bit tricky and rapidly moves into "must have a commercial pilot certificate."

People whine, bitch and moan about the FAA and the FARs, but the reality is they don't care about quite a bit until money starts changing hands, then they start getting really serious.

My favorite perfectly legal scenario is a dad taking his five-year-old kid up for a night flight near Area 51 and the kid making his first jump ever; night, solo, moa, BLM land. Technically, it could be done legally.

That which is legal is not necessarily safe.
That which is safe is not necessarily legal.



Being new here I'm not sure I'm following how that would be legal. I was under the impression you had to have a class C (or D? I forget exactly) for night jumps? Are you just saying that the USPA isnt actually "laws" as much as "guidelines"?

Not trying to be argumentative, just want to be sure I understand what you are saying. I do understand the moral of the story though B|

edited because we all know the USPS has nothing to do with the sport lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Being new here I'm not sure I'm following how that would be legal. I was under the impression you had to have a class C (or D? I forget exactly) for night jumps? Are you just saying that the USPS isnt actually "laws" as much as "guidelines"?



What does the Postal Service have to do with skydiving? ;)

Assuming that was a typo and you meant USPA, the USPA has no force of law whatsoever. The sport is self-regulating. Other than the parts of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) that apply to skydiving operations, there are no laws governing the sport.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

My sister flies and and I jump. I sometimes help with the fuel cost, but she is flying for the fun and I am falling for the same reason.



Which illustrates the point that it's possible, but not very likely in most cases.

Yes, a private individual that owns his own aircraft and decides to take up a jumper for no compensation whatsoever can do so if he chooses. Beyond that it starts getting a bit tricky and rapidly moves into "must have a commercial pilot certificate."

People whine, bitch and moan about the FAA and the FARs, but the reality is they don't care about quite a bit until money starts changing hands, then they start getting really serious.

My favorite perfectly legal scenario is a dad taking his five-year-old kid up for a night flight near Area 51 and the kid making his first jump ever; night, solo, moa, BLM land. Technically, it could be done legally.

That which is legal is not necessarily safe.
That which is safe is not necessarily legal.



Being new here I'm not sure I'm following how that would be legal. I was under the impression you had to have a class C (or D? I forget exactly) for night jumps? Are you just saying that the USPS isnt actually "laws" as much as "guidelines"?

Not trying to be argumentative, just want to be sure I understand what you are saying. I do understand the moral of the story though B|



You don't need ANY license to jump from an airplane. The only requirement is that you have a currently packed and approved rig and the proper NOTAMS are filed by someone.
The B license requirement for night jumps is only for USPA sanctioned dropzones that follow USPA rules.
USPA does not make nor enforce any law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You don't need ANY license to jump from an airplane. The only requirement is that you have a currently packed and approved rig and the proper NOTAMS are filed by someone.
The B license requirement for night jumps is only for USPA sanctioned dropzones that follow USPA rules.
USPA does not make nor enforce any law.



To extend that a little further, it's really the DZO that's restricting your skydiving privileges by basically saying that he/she will not take you to altitude in his/her plane and allow you to jump unless you follow certain rules. For most dropzones in the US, the rules they adopt are those set out by the USPA, but really, as long as they comply with the FARS, they could choose any rules they want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The FAA on occasion makes up rules for skydiving.
There is a situation with landing on the beach near Corpus Christi Texas where the FAA requires a USPA C license. I'm not sure how that works but is mandated through the local FSDO.



I am seriously skeptical about that statement. I would also like to see the reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

The FAA on occasion makes up rules for skydiving.
There is a situation with landing on the beach near Corpus Christi Texas where the FAA requires a USPA C license. I'm not sure how that works but is mandated through the local FSDO.



I am seriously skeptical about that statement. I would also like to see the reference.



Probably a "Letter of Agreement" between the FSDO and the DZ.

A Letter of Agreement can allow companies to not have to continuously make requests as long as all requirements in it are met. So in this case it might be that normally this area, because of its size or location or whatever would require coordination with the FSDO, but the FSDO waives it as long as requirements are met.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Back in the 1980s, it was possible for private pilots to donate their time to non-profit jump clubs, but all that changed in the 1980s.

Now all the jump planes - at all Canadian DZs - are commercially registered, you need a commercial pilot license to pilot them.



That changed when "Clubs" started taking up students and tandems for profit. It has always been that if anyone involved in the operation is getting paid it is a commercial operation. If you buy a jump ticket then someone/group is making money.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Additionally if the "DZ" in Corpus in fact falls under the FAA's definition of a "Demo" (i.e. assembly of people, congested area) then the Waiver of authorization can contain all sorts conditions created or interpreted by the FSDO.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

The FAA on occasion makes up rules for skydiving.
There is a situation with landing on the beach near Corpus Christi Texas where the FAA requires a USPA C license. I'm not sure how that works but is mandated through the local FSDO.



I am seriously skeptical about that statement. I would also like to see the reference.



Be seriously skeptical of this.


Special Provisions for Parachute Jumps 8/16/05.

As appropriate, include the applicable special provisions with special provisions in paragraph A for parachute jumps, including DOD tactical airborne demonstrations that require an authorization under § 105.21. Restrictions in this section are not appropriate for parachute jumping operations not requiring an authorization under § 105.21.

1.Except for tactical airborne demonstrations by the Department of Defense (DOD), all jumpers shall have a record of at least 50 parachute jumps in the past 12 calendar-months, 5 of which must have been made in the last 60 days.

2.Each civilian jumper shall not exceed the manufacturer’s maximum suspended weight for the parachute to be utilized in the demonstration.

3.The holder of this Certificate of Authorization must position at least one person on the ground in the landing area to perform ground control duties. Ground control must have and utilize a means of constant communication with the jump aircraft. Direct two-way radio shall be the primary means of communication. In the event two-way radio communication is lost, a visual means of communication must be available that is capable of being identified and understood by the jumpers from the jump aircraft, and that will clearly indicate to jump or not to jump.

4.Procedures shall be established and used by the holder of this Certificate of Authorization to control spectators and keep them out of the landing area.

5.Except for tactical airborne demonstrations by the DOD, minimum competency and recent experience requirements for Open and Level I landing areas are:

(a) At least USPA C license
(b) A minimum of 200 jumps
(c) 50 jumps within the previous 12 calendar-months on the same make, model, and size of canopy to be used during the demonstration of which 5 jumps within the previous 60 days.

The jumpers may exit over an open area and drift into a Level I landing area within a congested area and must land no closer than 50 feet from any spectators and to pass over any spectators no lower than 250 feet, including the canopy and all external paraphernalia.

6. Except for tactical airborne demonstrations by the DOD, minimum competency and recent experience requirements for Level II landing areas are at least USPA D license with PRO rating with 50 jumps within the previous 12 calendar-months, and 5 jumps within the previous 60 days on the actual canopy, or same make, model, and size of canopy to be used during the demonstration. Additionally, jumpers must certify that they will use both a steerable main and reserve ram-air parachute. The jumpers may exit over an open area and drift into a Level II landing area within a congested area and must land no closer than 15 feet from any spectators and pass over any spectators no lower than 50 feet, including the canopy and all external paraphernalia.

7. The holder of this Certificate of Authorization is responsible for ensuring that individual jumpers meet the minimum competency and recent experience requirements for the landing area used and the overall safe execution of the jump exhibition. The final determination of site acceptability, landing area, wind conditions, and location of where to exit the jump aircraft (in accordance with the aforementioned special provisions) will be made by the team leader.

8. With the exception of members of DOD-sanctioned teams, under no circumstances may a parachutist exit an aircraft directly over a spectator area or an open-air assembly of people.

9. With the exception of DOD-sanctioned teams and tactical airborne demonstrations, parachutists shall deploy their parachutes at an altitude of not less than 2,000 feet AGL.

10. The decision to integrate Canopy Relative Work (CRW) into the parachute demonstration will be the responsibility of the team leader. The team leader will determine the effects of wind speed, direction, and turbulence when determining whether CRW can be conducted safely. This includes the decision to fly a completed formation over a spectator area or an open-air assembly of people. With the exception of DOD-sanctioned teams, CRW formations comprised of all USPA PRO-rated jumpers and any two jumper formation, CRW formations will not be flown below 1000 feet AGL for Level II landing areas, and 500 feet AGL for Level I landing areas.

11. With the exception of DOD-sanctioned teams, no hook turns will be initiated below 200 feet AGL.
NOTE: A hook turn is a maneuver in any maneuver sequence that causes the canopy to roll at an angle in excess of 45° from vertical and/or to pitch up or down at an angle in excess of 45° from horizontal while executing a turn in excess of 60°.

12. With the exception of DOD-sanctioned teams, intentional cutaway performances will not be initiated below 3,000 feet AGL. Intentional cutaway performances will not be initiated from an altitude, by anyone that may cause the cutaway equipment to drift into the spectator area.

13. The team leader or jumpmaster is responsible for inspecting all parachutists’ equipment and clothing, to include additional paraphernalia such as ropes, flags, and/or smoke/pyrotechnic devices for proper configuration and security prior to boarding the jump aircraft, and again just prior to exiting the jump aircraft.

14. All jumpers using additional paraphernalia such as ropes, flags, and/or smoke/pyrotechnic devices shall have at least one jump utilizing an identical device(s) prior to accomplishing the demonstration.

15. The holder of the Certificate of Authorization shall brief the PIC of the jump aircraft and the jumpers on the terms of this Certificate of Waiver or Authorization.

16. The PIC of the jump aircraft will contact the appropriate ATC facility 10 minutes and 5 minutes prior to commencing jump operations and will notify the appropriate ATC facility when all jumpers are on the ground.

17. [Insert name of responsible person] shall notify the [Insert appropriate name] FAA Flight Service Station (FSS) of the date, time, place, areas, altitudes, nature of the activity, and duration of the operation and request that a NOTAM be issued. Such notice shall be accomplished by providing the controlling FSS with a copy of the Certificate of Authorization at least 48 hours before the event but no more than 72 hours before the event.

Note 1: Do not include if TFR NOTAM is issued by ATA-400 for the aviation event. Reference any TFR NOTAM issued by ATA-400 in this NOTAM if issued for a portion of the time the waiver is in effect.

Note 2: Tandem Jump operations are authorized into Level 1 or larger landing areas with no jump experience requirement for the rider.


Most of this is not covered under any FAR and are made up and mailed out as each FSDO sees fit.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

The FAA on occasion makes up rules for skydiving.
There is a situation with landing on the beach near Corpus Christi Texas where the FAA requires a USPA C license. I'm not sure how that works but is mandated through the local FSDO.



I am seriously skeptical about that statement. I would also like to see the reference.



Be seriously skeptical of this.


Special Provisions for Parachute Jumps 8/16/05.

Is this in reference to demos or all jumping?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You submit a completed 7711-2 form and if approved they return a 7711-1 form and a list of “Special Provisions for Parachute Jumps”. I have only seen them on demos.


§ 105.21 Parachute operations over or into a congested area or an open-air assembly of persons. (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or into a congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or an open-air assembly of persons unless a certificate of authorization for that parachute operation has been issued under this section. However, a parachutist may drift over a congested area or an open-air assembly of persons with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if that parachutist is at a sufficient altitude to avoid creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) An application for a certificate of authorization issued under this section must—
(1) Be made in the form and manner prescribed by the Administrator, and
(2) Contain the information required in §105.15(a) of this part.
(c) Each holder of, and each person named as a participant in a certificate of authorization issued under this section must comply with all requirements contained in the certificate of authorization.
(d) Each holder of a certificate of authorization issued under this section must present that certificate for inspection upon the request of the Administrator, or any Federal, State, or local official.


Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account. It's free!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0