Is it necessary to pull your reserve handle to "build muscle memory"?

[wmw999 2,117]

Actually, that's exactly what I was trying to address.

It's completely useless to actually pull the handle after the reserve is already deployed. But the focus on getting to it no matter what is important. It's just that in the case of RSL deployment, the "what" is your reserve opening. But what if it was a collision with another jumper?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I feel that telling students and new jumpers that even if your reserve deploys your reserve, before you can pull the reserve handle it should still be done to create muscle memory.

I think it's a waste of time. You've probably just had a damn AAD fire and you should spend your time grabbing your toggles, flying your reserve, and wondering how you could have f-ed up so badly.

[billvon 2,384]

>then whats the point of pulling the handle and how does that relate to
>muscle memory.

Because we do what we practice.

>by the time you feel "stable" and you are about to pull you get stood up
>by the reserve. Now whats the point of pulling of the handle?

1) Practice
2) Many skydivers have never cut away before, and they may not know what getting stood up by their reserve during a very subterminal opening feels like. It would suck to go in because you were sure that that 'pop' you felt was the reserve opening.

>Always go for the handle but if you get beat by the skyhook then
>accept your defeat and leave your handle stowed.

Practicing that (mentally or otherwise) is a good way to have one of those unexplained no-pull fatalities. Relying on an RSL is never a good idea.

[Ron 7]

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The question IS NOT should you pull your reserve handle... yes you should.

Then you have your answer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jimmytavino 16]

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used to be a time,, when there were NO AADs for mains,,

You've got one of these?

the AAD for my main, is my Brain,,,,!!! and arm and hand...
pulling on my P C handle,,,,
i must have meant AADs for reserves...

though i CAN remember
seeing something called a Kap 3.. rigged up to a B 4 student freefall rig MAIN.....back when static lines were put out , with Sentinal Auto openers on the chest mounted reserves...
.. as for AADs ( sorry for the thread drift,,) i'm sorta glad for all those years that i didn't transition to one.
cause now while all my friends have AADs that have timed out. I still have 4 years left on mine....

thanx for the correction...kuai43

jt

[skiskyrock 0]

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RSLs, MARDs, often beat jumpers to their reserve handle... If you already find yourself under a reserve, do you feel still pulling the reserve handle will 'build muscle memory'?

Is it necessary to pull your reserve handle to "build muscle memory"?

My EPs don't include a "look up and check the reserve step" between cutaway and reserve pull. I've never cutaway with a skyhook, but after cutting away (subterminal) on an RSL rig I felt something going on back there that may have been reserve deployment, but then again maybe not, so I made doubly sure by pulling the reserve handle. The handle was out before I started feeling strong deceleration from the reserve and well before I took the time to look up.

It isn't so much a matter of muscle memory building as getting through the procedure fast enough that not pulling because you already see the reserve isn't an issue.

[JackC1 0]

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>then whats the point of pulling the handle and how does that relate to
>muscle memory.

Because we do what we practice.

...right up to the point where the brain overrides and takes over. If you're sitting under a fully inflated reserve, thinking "damn, that skyhook is fast", pulling silver at that point is just going through the motions for the sake of it, which is cool if that's what you want to do. But that time could be spent learning to fly a canopy you've never jumped before, that you are going to have to land very shortly, probably in a less than ideal spot.

Now if your brain isn't capable of taking over, pull the frickin' handle - then take up bowling.

[brettski74 0]

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Jumping with someone else's rig which hasn't got an RSL and having a high speed mal (high stress situation) can lead you to forget to pull your reserve handle and give you a cypress activation in the worst case scenario.

If by "cypress activation" you mean landing with nothing but a large coniferous tree to soften your impact then yes, that would be among the worst case scenarios. If instead, you were referring to a CYPRES activation, that's hardly the worst case. AADs can fail or maybe you'll be borrowing a rig that doesn't have an AAD. It's in your best interest to do whatever you can to get a canopy over your head. I always pull my reserve handle.

[billvon 2,384]

>But that time could be spent learning to fly a canopy you've never jumped
>before, that you are going to have to land very shortly, probably in a less
>than ideal spot.

If it takes you more than a fraction of a second to pull the reserve handle, and if you are not already in the process of doing that when your reserve opens, I HIGHLY recommend doing some hanging harness work with an instructor before you jump again. If you have a low cutaway, that sort of fumbling could kill you.

[airtwardo 6]

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What are you laughing at.... I don't like your new profile pic. It's weirding me out.

When you talk about building 'muscle memory' what you are actually talking about is reflexes...

Is it a good thing to train yourself to react properly?
~YES, of course it is.

But keep in mind, that also involves the proper reaction...pulling a reserve handle is just one step in your EP's and needs to be done both in sequence and in a timely manner.

For example, what if you can't find your hacky, do you cutaway then pull the reserve?

What I'm saying is you need to drill in the proper reaction 'sequence' to all possible situations, focusing only or primarily on the one segment of punching out the metal handle may not be a beneficial method.

If you are awake & aware of what's going on and react with the correct procedure to a given situation, odds are you'll be fine...you have the rest of your life to get it right...as long as you use that one shot you have to DO it right.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Amazon 7]

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>then whats the point of pulling the handle and how does that relate to
>muscle memory.

Because we do what we practice.

...right up to the point where the brain overrides and takes over. If you're sitting under a fully inflated reserve, thinking "damn, that skyhook is fast", pulling silver at that point is just going through the motions for the sake of it, which is cool if that's what you want to do. But that time could be spent learning to fly a canopy you've never jumped before, that you are going to have to land very shortly, probably in a less than ideal spot.

Now if your brain isn't capable of taking over, pull the frickin' handle - then take up bowling.

I don’t know about you.. but I have been pulling silver while I am still watching my pilot chute and bridal paying out... yes I am looking

I have 3 cutaways on modern gear.. and I have watched that sequence of events 3 times now. Time for me goes to a very weird place in that situation. It’s like super slow motion for me... I remember thinking MAN that bridle on the freebag sure is one long MOFO.... I watched the lines paying out back and forth as they were coming out .... I watched the canopy extraction from the freebag... and watched how sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww the reserve inflated rocking back and forth a bit as it filled with air...

There is no way in hell I am waiting that long after I chop to pull that silver handle..... if you already have a reserve over your head while you are still thinking about pulling silver I think you may have waited a tad too much.....I may be old and decrepit... but my brain is still functioning much faster.. as needed in that situation

[hallux 0]

once again you miss the point completely and are describing totally different scenarios then the one at hand.

first of all we arent talking about relying on RSL's we are talking about knowing 100 percent sure your reserve is out before you were able to pull the handle. No one is advocating waiting on a RSL. I swear i think you readers have your heads up your butt most of the time.
If you dont know what a parachute over your head feels like then you SHOULD go in! ITs the big rectangular thing above your head for those that dont know.

anyone that assumes the reserve came out due to a RsL but is still in freefall and doesnt ever pull a handle or look is a dumbass that should have gone in.

In no way on any universe is what I was talking about a "good way to have one of those unexplained no-pull fatalities" Its impossible to have one of those fatalities when a huge reserve is over your head. Which is the exact situation we are describing.

NO where in any of the OP or my post have we described a situation of relying on a RSL.

Why is this picture so hard to paint for you guys? It seems simple enough.....This is not a RSL depencency thread!!!!! Every topic on here gets twisted like this because you guys have to be eager to thrust your knowledge and safety advice on everyone whether its relevant or not.

Jesus!!!!!

[billvon 2,384]

>If you dont know what a parachute over your head feels like then you
>SHOULD go in!

And if you can't pull in time you should go in.
And if you can't even find your reserve handle (which is right there in front of your face) you should go in.
And if you can't even identify a basic malfunction you should go in.
And if you can't remember six super simple steps you should go in.

I guess we're proceeding from a different perspective, you and I. I want my students to NOT go in even when they do something really stupid. So we have different goals, and thus might have different sets of reasoning.

[bdb2004 24]

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In no way on any universe is what I was talking about a "good way to have one of those unexplained no-pull fatalities" Its impossible to have one of those fatalities when a huge reserve is over your head. Which is the exact situation we are describing.

(Note: I discussed this with a couple of instructors the day it happened, so please be gentle....)

I think he is trying to describe a situation similar to what I had on my cutaway on jump 53. My lightly loaded Sabre 2 (about 1.0 WL) spun me up because I was a dumbass when packing. When I realized I couldn't get the line twists out or release the toggles, I started my EPs, two hands per handle method: Look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver.

I did the first four just right. As I had my hands on silver about to pull, I felt myself getting jerked around. Afraid maybe only one riser released, I looked up to see my white reserve starting to open. Then, because I needed to finish my EPs, I immediately pulled silver.

I didn't have to pull it. There was no immediate life-saving value to pulling it. The question the OP is asking is whether pulling it was good "to build muscle memory" or whether the few seconds it would take could be better spent doing other things (such as figuring out where I was landing and how to fly this weird canopy).

[ridestrong 1]

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all these responses and not a single person has addressed the question. everyone is too busy trying to show off, jumping to conclusions and enforcing generic general knowledge.
the question is if your reserve is already out, then whats the point of pulling the handle and how does that relate to muscle memory.
anyone who jumps tandems with a skyhook for any amount of time has probably eperienced this scenario. spinning mal, cutaway, by the time you feel "stable" and you are about to pull you get stood up by the reserve. Now whats the point of pulling of the handle? That is the question he is asking.
Quit frankly its useless! It will do nothing and will not effect your muscle memory at all. More than likely your hand was already on the handle and your muscle memory response has already taken place. At this point you are now acting on cognitive decision making and not muscle memory. If you are aware your reserve is out and you decide to go ahead and pull the handle for the hell of it then that is not muscle memory! or a huge part of muscle memory building. That is a calm calculated decision and will do nothing but give you one more handle to keep up with while you fly your reserve.
Always go for the handle but if you get beat by the skyhook then accept your defeat and leave your handle stowed. Bill boothe wins again bitch.

Thank god!! Yes, that is the question I'm asking. :-)

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[NWFlyer 2]

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do.

Personally, if I come down under a reserve without that silver handle in my hand ... I will feel like I have fucked up my emergency procedures and failed to do everything I needed to do to save my own life.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ridestrong 1]

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The question the OP is asking is whether pulling it was good "to build muscle memory" or whether the few seconds it would take could be better spent doing other things (such as figuring out where I was landing and how to fly this weird canopy).

Yes!

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[councilman24 36]

Considering that I haven't had a reserve ride in 23 years and 1900 jumps, nope no muscle memory here. Only alzhiemers.

Hmm, and about three rigs ago too.

There were a couple of intentional cutaways since then, but Strong's tandem training cutaway rig doesn't count. In fact I COULDN'T count high enough for all the handles on that thing.

Put them in a cutaway trainer, shake the shit out of them and twirl them around your head and see how many relax after they get the cutaway done. Almost every low timer I've don't this with has 'forgot' to pull their reserve.

Muscle memory NOT suspended may be a BAD thing. Most likely you'll be reaching for a place where your reserve handle isn't. Yes totals happen but even then you rig may well have shifted around.

Learn EP's, practice EP's, but expect to think about it. It's not hard.

And anyone who hasn't pulled their reserve handle by the time they have an open canopy should practice some more.

Of course all of my cutaways were without RSL's or AAD's. And two were R-3's.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JackC1 0]

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If it takes you more than a fraction of a second to pull the reserve handle, and if you are not already in the process of doing that when your reserve opens, I HIGHLY recommend doing some hanging harness work with an instructor before you jump again. If you have a low cutaway, that sort of fumbling could kill you.

If that were the case, then everyone should be able to beat their RSL and the point would be moot (as would RSLs). But people do get beaten by their RSLs, especially if they use two hands on each handle and they have a MARD system.

Of course it is always possible to invent an EP that is guaranteed to beat an RSL, I think they used to call it a canopy transfer but I don't fancy that very much with two square canopies.

So yes, aim to go through with your EPs until all handles are pulled, that is a given. But there is benefit in allowing your brain to recognize a situation when it arises and take the appropriate action rather than robotically pulling handles simply because there are handles to pull.

In fact, if all you're going to do is pull two handles in sequence without thinking about what you're trying to achieve, why bother with a separate reserve handle at all? Just have an SOS handle and be done with it.

[format 0]

Hi Jesus

I couldn't deploy reserve chute with one hand. I've had to use two hands.
I wouldn't let anyone up there without actually pulling reserve handle once.

As for leaving handle when rsl beats you to it - I did it twice, didn't want to mess with a gear while under reserve.

___________________
Jerry Baumchen fan

What goes around, comes later.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi format,

Jerry Baumchen fan

Care to elaborate?

JerryBaumchen

[format 0]

Nothing more than I recognize your routine ("Hi 'Poster-Name") at the beginning of your replies.

It wasn't meant to be offensive or mocking-like,
au contraire.

I like it and I felt I can use it to enrich my, otherwise, boring posts.

Not anymore

What goes around, comes later.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi format,

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I like it and I felt I can use it to enrich my, otherwise, boring posts.

Be my guest.

JerryBaumchen

PS)

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Not anymore

Oh, no; please keep using it. I won't sue.

[godfrog 2]

NEVER once did anyone say "look"!

Your handles may NOT be in the same place they were!
You may end up just pulling on your harness.

Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

[Amazon 7]

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NEVER once did anyone say "look"!

Your handles may NOT be in the same place they were!
You may end up just pulling on your harness.

AHEM

Post #2

I TOUCH my reserve handle at least a couple times on every plane ride up... I go thru the whole sequence of a cutaway touching my hackey....Looking at my cutaway pillow then looking at my reserve D-ring then a fake pull on my cutaway pillow while still looking at the D ring and then a fake pull of the metal d-ring... thinking about each step while doing so.